Incline Battle Brothers + Beasts & Exploration, Warriors of the North and Blazing Deserts DLC Thread

[Payd Shell]

Actually after playing for a while with the try out mod for the stars, I found it a bit too "cheaty". Basically you'd never get anyone before trying out and you'd never have to fight with kinda crappy guys against odds etc

I somewhat agree, it makes the early game too easy. The gold sink is there for a reason, to make progressing somewhat slower. If you only hire top recruits from day 1 you're going to snowball too fast. Having to play the hand you've been dealt is what Battle Brothers is all about.
HOWEVER
come lategame you want the top of the top if you're interested in beating huge camps and whatever crisis hits. You can win the greenskin invasion by picking off weak parties and camps, but for the undead one you have to win a pretty big fight iirc. Noble wars you can essentially just ignore if you haven't progressed far enough to fight noble armies yet. But anyway, sooner or later you will hit a cap with your guys that halts you from progressing any further until you find people with the right stars, which can be annoying as fuck and is a huge, huge grind for the high end backgrounds like hedge knights. And then you need to level them up and keep them safe long enough, a top recruit is just a recruit with a lot of potential, he's still going to die just like any other recruit if you're not careful.

Battle Brothers sits in a weird spot, balance-wise, I think. There's too much reliance on RNG for everything. It works just fine for the combat, but starting the game and having a shit map? Reroll. Have bad starting bros? Reroll. Get only caravan and delivery quests early on? Will delay your progression for no reason other than RNG. Taking a few unlucky hits early game might also be the end of a run. As soon as you collect some gear and experience you can easily get away with destroying a few camps here and there if the contracts are shit. I personally don't think the very early game is that exciting, so I don't feel particularly bad about using the try out mod. I see why someone might have another opinion on it, though.

 

[Payd Shell]

What perk do you guys recommend at Level 5 for melee bros? I use a standard progression of Pathfinder --> Steel Brow --> Rotation in the beginning but nothing at the next tier really jumps out.

I was thinking about Dodge for more defense or Colossus for more HP since I will eventually transition everyone to 2H weapons, but just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something critical.

Student -> Gifted -> Recovery -> Brawny if they're expendable
Student -> Recovery -> Brawny -> Weapon mastery if they're keepers.
You can also try to use adrenaline + recovery which is a nice combo. Especially early game when you don't need brawny because you don't have access to heavy armors anyway yet. Steelbrow isn't necessary with a mail helmet, you'll survive the occasional hit to the head anyway. Unless you're fighting barbarians which you shouldn't at level 5, dspite the devs claiming that early game barbs are similar to raiders in terms of difficulty.

I've come to the conclusion that these new starts need some serious balancing. Most of them are super grindy, even by BB standards which are already grindy. It's just a different type of grind for each of the starts. And once that grind is past and you have enough resources to start actually building a company, it's just like any other BB game.

The notable exception is Lone Wolf which is genuinely fun, and Cultists which have their own special twist. But with the others I'm having less fun than with the plain ol' Hoggart start, and that's kind of a shame.

Eh, they're mostly fine, I think. The raider start sucks, though, because you'll be replacing your barbarian gear with the same shit as everyone else pretty soon - rusty raider mail shirts. It's more about the unique bonuses, for example the raiders get pretty much one or two destroyed items per fight which can be huge depending on what it is. Poacher start is nice because it gives you 3 rather good archers which are a pain to find and level so having them right there at the beginning makes things easier. It won't change how you play, though, because BB's gameplay isn't deep enough for that I'm afraid. You're not going to hunt monsters with beast slayers all the time, it's just that when you fight them you'll get a lot more out of the fight.

 

[Tigranes]

For the perks discussion:

Student & Rotation are probably the most common perks for my bros. I don't think everybody needs rotation, but I usually try to have it so that every other bro in the line has it, even ranged bros. I find this really helps when, say, you're being surrounded by Dire Wolves, or fighting things like goblins hordes and Necrosavants - it clearly saves lives.

Steel Brow, Colossus, Pathfinder, I think are OK but never really a must, and for me it depends on the bro. I might want Steel Brow for a lone wolf nimble dodger, I might want Colossus for a two-handed guy going in hard or for a shitty bro who really needs some survivability help. I just do pathfinders later on for bros who turn out to be the high-mobility lone wolves / chasers / etc.

Fast Adaptation / Backstabber / etc stacking across the team I think can be really important when planned out. If you know which of your bros are high-fatigue, mobile daggerstabbers for example, they can easily maneuvre to be backstabbing the entire game. You can later combine overwhelm with FA or backstab across the team to stack some bonuses very high as well.

Brawny I am a big fan of. Fatigue tends to be the thing my bros struggle with the most, especially because I mostly hire trash level backgrounds and don't reload (I think the hiring sytem isn't perfect, but I think it sucks out a huge amount of fun to savescum or mod it away as the game stands. I don't want a team of AA-grade bros. )

 

[Zanzoken]

Good points everyone. It's interesting to see how you can implement various builds and still have success. That says a lot for the devs in terms of character design.

I think I tend to steer toward defensive-oriented perks because it takes so much time to level up. For instance my starter bros are only level 6 but already at 20+ battles. Right now we are mostly fighting raiders and greenskins, so perhaps you could argue I should be taking on more challenging jobs, but my point is that it's frustrating to have characters die that you've put a lot of time into. Or to be more precise, knowing how much effort it will take to train a replacement.

I totally get that losing guys is supposed to suck. I support that as a design principle and I have lost guys in my game and just dealt with it. But if I lose half the party in some debacle then the slog of character progression just makes me want to say fuck it and start over (or play something else).

 

[Ezeekiel]

I always use pathfinder so I don't end up in some shit situation on some mountain map or something where I miss out on a tile of movement range at the wrong time or have some bro fall behind too much if he has to cross shit terrain.
Old habit though, maybe I should experiment some instead.

Colossus is nice in the sense that it's a perpetually active percentage buff instead of a one-shot (or do I have that wrong? I'm pretty sure it's that way so that you can take it any time without losing out on HP as opposed to taking it at level 11). So you get more out of increasing your guys' hp via level ups as well if you have colossus.

Brawny is mandatory for me in vanilla bb because I only play with heavy armor builds normally, and it's easy to run out of fatigue if you are outnumbered and enemies strike at you a lot. Plus mansplitters but also all those multi-target attacks etc cost more fatigue. I think it sucks that nimble doesn't take brawny into account.

 

[Payd Shell]

You shouldn't take on greenskins if your frontline has sub-200 gear and no battleforged, tbh. Even orc young can cut right through your armor if they have no shield and an orc cleaver / axe. Goblins get their poison off if you take too much HP damage. What you should do, however, if you have your guys in full raider gear, is take on a noble supply caravan or two. Pick the weakest house, get nets and daggers and shank dem bitches for their sweet loot. Even if you lose a bro or two in the process, the thousands of gold you're able to save by looting the gear off of the guards makes it worthwile. You're ahead in the progression curve and thus leveling new guys is easier as well because fights will be much more one sided than before.

Edit: Another good target would be armored wiedergängers. They only get one attack per turn and are easy to dagger down. They've better gear than most raiders do and are easier to take down as well. After that you should look for bandit camps with leaders in them for their T3 weapons and good armor. That is if you don't want to raid caravans because you're a good boy.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Student & Rotation are probably the most common perks for my bros. I don't think everybody needs rotation, but I usually try to have it so that every other bro in the line has it, even ranged bros. I find this really helps when, say, you're being surrounded by Dire Wolves, or fighting things like goblins hordes and Necrosavants - it clearly saves lives.

Direwolves are probably the easiest enemy for me as I mow them down pretty quickly (have to watch the flanks but that's always the case when dealing with large groups). Goblins - I switch to shields with high ranged, give them to all front row guys even two-handers, let the backrow do most killing (with berserk and high THC that's two dead goblins per bro per turn). Necrosavants used to bother me a lot but tight formation is key there, so that no matter where the bastard pops up, at least 3 bros can hit him. I killed 9 necros this way without reloading or having anyone close to death. In most cases when a bro dies, it's because of a positioning mistake. Rotation can help you fix such mistakes but there are better perks, imo.

In the end it all comes down to your THC, enemy's THC, and damage (overall, armor, and armor bypass). Failing to kill a tough enemy because two out of three bros missed and because the enemy didn't can make a huge difference, so the perks that increase your THC, lower enemy's THC, increase damage under certain conditions (executioner, duelist - 25% armor bypass, killing frenzy) are more important as killing them fast lowers the morale and makes them run. Even Fearsome can make a difference by making them run a turn earlier. Quite a few times my almost dead bros were saved because the enemy decided to run instead of killing them.

 

[Tigranes]

Good points everyone. It's interesting to see how you can implement various builds and still have success. That says a lot for the devs in terms of character design.

I think I tend to steer toward defensive-oriented perks because it takes so much time to level up. For instance my starter bros are only level 6 but already at 20+ battles. Right now we are mostly fighting raiders and greenskins, so perhaps you could argue I should be taking on more challenging jobs, but my point is that it's frustrating to have characters die that you've put a lot of time into. Or to be more precise, knowing how much effort it will take to train a replacement.

I totally get that losing guys is supposed to suck. I support that as a design principle and I have lost guys in my game and just dealt with it. But if I lose half the party in some debacle then the slog of character progression just makes me want to say fuck it and start over (or play something else).

The way I see it is, BB battles don't really take a very long time, not until you get to crisis and start having huge battles and such. And even when you have a party of level 10+ veterans, the right bros can start being useful already be level 3-4. So I don't worry so much about how long it takes to level a new bro up - and I often find that it's not such a big deal, and the worry up front can be larger than the actual suffering.

Vault Dweller Absolutely, nachs and dire wolves are easy fodder. And in conditions where you are well prepared for your enemy, something like rotation is hardly necessary. I would say that rotation gives me a nice buffer for playing a bit more recklessly or not suffering too much from mistakes.

 

[Covenant]

What perk do you guys recommend at Level 5 for melee bros? I use a standard progression of Pathfinder --> Steel Brow --> Rotation in the beginning but nothing at the next tier really jumps out.

I was thinking about Dodge for more defense or Colossus for more HP since I will eventually transition everyone to 2H weapons, but just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something critical.

I struggle with picking the early perks myself, but invariably end up with Student, Pathfinder, Colossus and Rotation on most bros. Student is an obvious easy pick, and since B&E Colossus generally seems a smarter pick than Nine Lives - though sometimes I'll take that instead on someone with Frail or a Swordmaster. I get too attached to my bros to eschew defensive perks entirely. Steel Brow is great too but I tend to save it for the favourites and let any slightly less valuable bros take their chances without it.

I find that other nice early picks include Adrenaline for your two-handed smashers and Brawny/Fortified Mind to bump up your fatigue or Resolve a bit if you've had unlucky rolls (or alternately, to make the most of an already-high stat). A good all-purpose pick is Backstabber - in my experience it's rare you won't have multiple bros surrounding the toughest targets later in the game, particularly when using polearms, and the extra hit-chance can really make the difference between getting past that enemy shield or not. Not as strong a pick for your flankers (who are generally my 2h guys) but it shines on your front line.

 

[hivemind]

backstabber?

sounds like a perk for a homo

lmao

 

[Payd Shell]

I struggle with picking the early perks myself, but invariably end up with Student, Pathfinder, Colossus and Rotation on most bros. Student is an obvious easy pick, and since B&E Colossus generally seems a smarter pick than Nine Lives - though sometimes I'll take that instead on someone with Frail or a Swordmaster. I get too attached to my bros to eschew defensive perks entirely. Steel Brow is great too but I tend to save it for the favourites and let any slightly less valuable bros take their chances without it.

I find that other nice early picks include Adrenaline for your two-handed smashers and Brawny/Fortified Mind to bump up your fatigue or Resolve a bit if you've had unlucky rolls (or alternately, to make the most of an already-high stat). A good all-purpose pick is Backstabber - in my experience it's rare you won't have multiple bros surrounding the toughest targets later in the game, particularly when using polearms, and the extra hit-chance can really make the difference between getting past that enemy shield or not. Not as strong a pick for your flankers (who are generally my 2h guys) but it shines on your front line.

When picking perks, one should consider if they're applicable all the time or only situational. Pathfinder only really helps in swamp and snow and even then most enemies don't have it, either, so you're mostly on an even playing field when it comes to battles in these areas. Don't fight gobbos or undead in swamps, though. Colossus is kinda wasted once you have battleforged since you won't be taking HP damage anyway and if you do, 25% extra won't save you. Nine Lives is a guaranteed hit more your bros need to go down, colossus isn't. Hammers are dangerous, obviously, so you should focus enemies with those first. A battleforged bro can survive a few head hits without issue, unless it's a 2h mace or hammer. In this case, I'd take steelbrow over colossus. Again, because it will guarantee you're not being oneshotted. With 9 lives, a bf bro needs at least 3 hits to go down even against the strongest enemies. The first hit will be soaked by armor, the second one will bring you to 1 hp and the 3rd one will kill ya.

Backstabber is also very situational especially when you're fighting groups of enemies that will outnumber you. Honesty I'd rather pick gifted instead because it will give you stats that are applicable all the time instead of being there or not depending on the situation. It's a neat perk for polearm backliners, though, especially if they don't reach very high melee attack at level 11. I'm not so sure on fortified mind because battles can be decided by morale checks instead of damage. Causing damage on the other hand is the way for you to trigger negative morale checks on the enemy and positive ones for your guys, so it comes down to a good old dps race again. I agree with student and rotation fully, though. Rotation saves lives and can prevent morale break spirals, student is just too good to pass. 20% bonus xp and you get the perk point refunded at lvl 11, it's a no-brainer.

 

[Reinhardt]

Pathfinder only really helps in swamp and snow

Forests too if you want to occupy chokepoints before enemies. Especially if it's ambush.

 

[puppyonastik]

VD, Has anything in Battle Brothers influenced design (E.g. Combat) in Colony Ship?

 

[Tigranes]

I believe it influenced him into making games that are good and not bad

 

[Prime Junta]

Had to uninstall as I found myself addicted to the grind rather than enjoying the game. BB always strode the line between the two but these new starts have it fall too often on the wrong side.

Will likely take another look in a few months to see if anything has changed.

 

[Dr Skeleton]

Actually after playing for a while with the try out mod for the stars, I found it a bit too "cheaty". Basically you'd never get anyone before trying out and you'd never have to fight with kinda crappy guys against odds etc

Haven't tried it yet, maybe try outs should cost more then? Because right now it feels like a waste of money. Maybe for very expensive recruits to see if they have a very bad trait but they rarely do. Most often you just get to see nothing or 1 somewhat bad/good trait and that tells you basically nothing.

As for perks I usually go for pathfinder or colossus (nine lives if they have low base hp). Pathfinder does very little in some fights but when it matters, it matters a lot. Student on very good recruits I want to level up fast or in later game to catch up, but I skip it on most characters in early/mid game. Adrenaline is ok for polearm users because they have the fatigue to use it a lot, works for the 1st line too but I wouldn't take it early. Recovery is good but I usually get it later.

From the 2nd line, it's usually gifted but also good are dodge, quick hands (for the rare throwing/melee or archer/polearm hybrid), fortified mind on the sergeant/banner bearer. Bullseye on archers for sniping necromancers and such, but that I usually get later. I never take steel brow, I'd rather have colossus or nine lives.

3rd line - rotation is a life saver for all melee characters and sometimes to change position with an archer or piker than got tied in melee, so I get rotation on most 1st line characters. Backstabber is very good too, most of the time it's at least +5 and often 10 or 15, especially with polearms. Brawny for the battle forged characters but you don't need to get it early. Shield expert is ok for mediocre characters that make it to higher levels but even then I wouldn't take it on level 4. Maybe relentless for dodge builds but I haven't tried it yet.

 

[Grunker]

Since I stopped using polearms and just stack up on archers this game got a lot easier

 

[Jimmious]

Haven't tried it yet, maybe try outs should cost more then?

They do but still doesn't feel right. I guess I like the gamble a bit

 

[AwesomeButton]

Since I stopped using polearms and just stack up on archers this game got a lot easier

How many archers do you have?

I took a noble house mission yesterday, just to try it out. It was an "assist the siege" mission. With no warning, another faction's fortresses turn hostile, wtf? I have to undergo one moderately tough combat, followed by at least one more tough combat, wtf? And all this for 3500 gold, are they fucking kidding?

 

[Edija]

I had a situation while recording yesterday... I never saw an enemy marksman do it. One of my guys was almost dead but I managed to save him by killing the enemies that surrounded him and the only enemy that was left was the marksman. I let a dog out and the dog reaches him that turn, even bites him I think. I was relieved, foolishly thinking that he will change to a melee weapon immediately. No. He takes a crossbow shot, kills my guy, and then switches to his melee weapon. I'm still mad. I will never not be mad.

 

[Alienman]

Yeah, that happened to me too, thinking I was in the clear from instant head shot death, but no.

 

[Strange Fellow]

I took a noble house mission yesterday, just to try it out. It was an "assist the siege" mission. With no warning, another faction's fortresses turn hostile, wtf? I have to undergo one moderately tough combat, followed by at least one more tough combat, wtf? And all this for 3500 gold, are they fucking kidding?

I think the big battles are a lot of fun, and the loot you get is excellent. And of course the faction get pissed at you when you besiege one of their settlements, duh?

 

[AwesomeButton]

I took a noble house mission yesterday, just to try it out. It was an "assist the siege" mission. With no warning, another faction's fortresses turn hostile, wtf? I have to undergo one moderately tough combat, followed by at least one more tough combat, wtf? And all this for 3500 gold, are they fucking kidding?

I think the big battles are a lot of fun, and the loot you get is excellent. And of course the faction get pissed at you when you besiege one of their settlements, duh?

Of course? I am a mercenary, I take a contract, I'm not a side in the war, duh?

 

[Payd Shell]

I had a situation while recording yesterday... I never saw an enemy marksman do it. One of my guys was almost dead but I managed to save him by killing the enemies that surrounded him and the only enemy that was left was the marksman. I let a dog out and the dog reaches him that turn, even bites him I think. I was relieved, foolishly thinking that he will change to a melee weapon immediately. No. He takes a crossbow shot, kills my guy, and then switches to his melee weapon. I'm still mad. I will never not be mad.

Crossbowmen do that all the time to me. They fire a point-blank shot if they have one loaded.

I took a noble house mission yesterday, just to try it out. It was an "assist the siege" mission. With no warning, another faction's fortresses turn hostile, wtf? I have to undergo one moderately tough combat, followed by at least one more tough combat, wtf? And all this for 3500 gold, are they fucking kidding?

I think the big battles are a lot of fun, and the loot you get is excellent. And of course the faction get pissed at you when you besiege one of their settlements, duh?

Of course? I am a mercenary, I take a contract, I'm not a side in the war, duh?

Well nobles weren't known to be rational and reasonable. You killed their men and caused a shift in power that wasn't in their favor. If they lose a town thanks to you, they will be pissed no matter what your personal stance on the issue is. 'I did it for the money' was never a convincing stance tbqh

 

[Grunker]

Since I stopped using polearms and just stack up on archers this game got a lot easier

How many archers do you have?

I took a noble house mission yesterday, just to try it out. It was an "assist the siege" mission. With no warning, another faction's fortresses turn hostile, wtf? I have to undergo one moderately tough combat, followed by at least one more tough combat, wtf? And all this for 3500 gold, are they fucking kidding?

5, with one of them being a hybrid (can switch to polearms). But the main difference has been the early game where I beeline as many of them as possible. Even if you're not playing the Poacher-start (which is insane, btw), you can get 3 fairly fast. And it makes a massive difference.