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Incline Battle Brothers + Beasts & Exploration, Warriors of the North and Blazing Deserts DLC Thread
- Thread starter Antigoon
- Start date
Alp fights are tedious, but easy.
Anyway, wanna hear a joke? Southern armies.
Anyone claiming they are on the same level as undead/orcs/noble war deserves a dumbfuck tag.
Anyway, wanna hear a joke? Southern armies.
Anyone claiming they are on the same level as undead/orcs/noble war deserves a dumbfuck tag.
What do you mean "joke"? As in "so easy"? You find a group of assassins with a strong army (incl. handgonners) to support them easy? Tell me your secret how to defeat them - without taking serious risks of loosing a brother or two every time i fight them.Alp fights are tedious, but easy.
Anyway, wanna hear a joke? Southern armies.
Anyone claiming they are on the same level as undead/orcs/noble war deserves a dumbfuck tag.
Unless you meant "so hard it's a joke", then let's no go there either, they are doable, it just hard to eliminate the serious risks, i was still working on that the last time i played but i fought a holy war a grand total of one time. I'm pretty sure it can be done with more "practice".
What? I said the southern armies are probably a dev in-joke about how much they hate their playerbase. AoE gunners and """"conscripts"""" that have insane armor and insane defense. Whoever ran the numbers for the sandniggers was obviously high on drugs, because it doesn't add up. Actually, reddit is littered with plebs claiming north vs south results in southern armies curbstomping the north 95% of the time.
This is simply not the same game I supported way back in early access, where challenge always felt tight, but manageable. In its current state BB is all about having meta knowledge of which fights are winnable and which encounters and contracts are absolute retarded bullshit and must be avoided at all costs.
And there's no convincing me that the RNG isn't completely fucked up. Most attacks have coinflip odds and yet every turn shit like this happens:
(26/100)³ = 1,75% yet it happens every other turn. The developers should play the lottery, if it works similar to their RNG retardation, they should win a prize every week.
This is simply not the same game I supported way back in early access, where challenge always felt tight, but manageable. In its current state BB is all about having meta knowledge of which fights are winnable and which encounters and contracts are absolute retarded bullshit and must be avoided at all costs.
And there's no convincing me that the RNG isn't completely fucked up. Most attacks have coinflip odds and yet every turn shit like this happens:
(26/100)³ = 1,75% yet it happens every other turn. The developers should play the lottery, if it works similar to their RNG retardation, they should win a prize every week.
Things like this make me hope that you are a troll, level 3 or 4 with bad perk selections:
I'm an imbecile. As are many other players. Who incidentally are usually also struggling less with the mechanics and difficulty of the game. Who would have thought. Hint: take the right backgrounds - cheap but with decent stats and filter out the bad candidates. Most people who don't lose time on being grumpy do it - and it works. You don't need perfect, stats spread is not THAT big in this game.
A few perks are subpar, that's true. Not a single one is useless though or bugged - at least afaik. However if you only know how to use berserk + frenzy then they may seem all garbage to you. I suggest other type of builds, for example 2 or more tanks are almost a must. BTW, thief is probably the best cheap-ish background for a (nimble) tank. Check whips too - ability to disarm is arguably OP.
As to RNG, most discussions i witnessed come to this:
1. The problem is with an RNG biased against player, never the opposite.
2. The players that struggle with the game are the ones to "see" the problem. Not the ones that find the difficulty reasonable.
3. No substantial proof is ever provided. Everything boils to: "I missed a 95% chance 3 times in a row, it's impossible" and such.
4. It seems that 3/4 of developers of games, with any difficulty to speak of, create fake RNGs. For what reason, only RNGejus knows.
5. All of the above is purely circumstantial, right?
I think i'm not patient enough to continue this nonsense anymore. At least the RNG part, it is always crap.
I'm an imbecile. As are many other players. Who incidentally are usually also struggling less with the mechanics and difficulty of the game. Who would have thought. Hint: take the right backgrounds - cheap but with decent stats and filter out the bad candidates. Most people who don't lose time on being grumpy do it - and it works. You don't need perfect, stats spread is not THAT big in this game.
A few perks are subpar, that's true. Not a single one is useless though or bugged - at least afaik. However if you only know how to use berserk + frenzy then they may seem all garbage to you. I suggest other type of builds, for example 2 or more tanks are almost a must. BTW, thief is probably the best cheap-ish background for a (nimble) tank. Check whips too - ability to disarm is arguably OP.
As to RNG, most discussions i witnessed come to this:
1. The problem is with an RNG biased against player, never the opposite.
2. The players that struggle with the game are the ones to "see" the problem. Not the ones that find the difficulty reasonable.
3. No substantial proof is ever provided. Everything boils to: "I missed a 95% chance 3 times in a row, it's impossible" and such.
4. It seems that 3/4 of developers of games, with any difficulty to speak of, create fake RNGs. For what reason, only RNGejus knows.
5. All of the above is purely circumstantial, right?
I think i'm not patient enough to continue this nonsense anymore. At least the RNG part, it is always crap.
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2015
- Messages
- 20,695
RNG giveth and RNG taketh away.
And attempts to solve that problem usually just makes game worse and/or more boring.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2018
- Messages
- 4,241
Every time someone accuses a game's RNG of being rigged, a beautiful ray of incline pierces the clouds and shines down upon us. Revel in it.
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2015
- Messages
- 20,695
You're surprised that last DLC of game has enemies that tweak with meta of how you build your battleline?
Southrons are beatable, if you use their own weapons against them (firebombs, handgonnes and
shields.
Harthwain
Magister
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2019
- Messages
- 5,427
Hard West had a unique way of mitigating RNG.
Eh, much of the criticism against this game is retarded, but honestly the one directed towards the mid-late game recruitment Wheel of Fortune isn’t. Running around making money to get the chance to roll the dice on a good background until I get lucky is easily the worst part of the game for me. It feels extremely gamey and pulls you out of the world, and it’s just not exciting either.
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So does Dungeon of Naheulbeuk. But then again me and Darth Roxor have been saying for ages that every RPG should have fate systems. Boggles the mind that so few cRPGs do.
Battlebrothers is one of the only games I’d probably oppose using one. Since dealing with with death and injury is part of the package.
I REALLY miss the days before this game became the dork souls of squad tactics. BB was fun back in the day, but nowadays it caters to people whose definition of "fun" is sticking their dicks in a blender. Every time I reinstall the game I hope it somehow improved, but no, changes are always for the worse. Forest fights remain a complete cancerous clusterfuck, map generation is STILL a coinflip between autowin and autoloss (esp. in hills/mountain maps), a gazillion armor bypassing shit is STILL in the game, 95% attacks with two handers are STILL missing 110% of the time, the AI is STILL hitting five 10% odds attacks in a row, the gear grind is even worse than it ever was, losses after the early game are STILL a death sentence, Beasts and Exploration should've been called "FUCK YOU, the DLC", hiring people is STILL impossible without savescumming (unless you're an imbecile willing to accept the game stealing your money), perks are still garbage until Killing Frenzy/Berserk.
I played a single crisis and I have zero motivation to keep playing. If anything, my appreciation for deterministic systems has increased. Speaking of which:
Same Hexe, but this time the coinflip went my way and she died turn 1 with two arrows to her skull. If only the RNG clusterfuck was limited to the fight itself, but no. The Hexe's bodyguards can change and they can go from a couple spiders (screenshot) all the way up to Schrats and Unholds. Same contract, completely different encounter, zero player input, RNGsus became lord and master of this game.
the ratman always gets the last laugh
azimuth
Educated
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2017
- Messages
- 84
Virtually any brother of a high-tier background is a solid end-game brother right out the gate. People who complain about the recruitment lottery in BB are exclusively noobs -- either they are literally new or just clueless.
People going around hiring and instantly firing until they find the "right brother" are either so late-game that it literally doesn't matter what you do or cluelessly chasing some sort of extreme ideal that the game has never been balanced around.
All content is pretty comfortably doable with so-so brothers.
People going around hiring and instantly firing until they find the "right brother" are either so late-game that it literally doesn't matter what you do or cluelessly chasing some sort of extreme ideal that the game has never been balanced around.
All content is pretty comfortably doable with so-so brothers.
Darth Canoli
Arcane
Eyestabber
You should play with Legends + PTR.
You'll get way harder monsters to fight (every monster gets a stronger, rarer version which appears during mid-late game or special contracts like white wolves or redback spiders) BUT you'll also get a lot of new perks to make overpowered builds to tackle the new content.
And even play the Hexes and permanently charm your opponents when Magic Origins modder comes back to life.
You should play with Legends + PTR.
You'll get way harder monsters to fight (every monster gets a stronger, rarer version which appears during mid-late game or special contracts like white wolves or redback spiders) BUT you'll also get a lot of new perks to make overpowered builds to tackle the new content.
And even play the Hexes and permanently charm your opponents when Magic Origins modder comes back to life.
What's more, I think the game economy was balanced around spending significant amount of the money on recruitment. Of new brothers and sometimes replacements. If you can skip that part, the costs are mostly wages but if you don't use sword masters, hedge knights and gladiators as your to go backgrounds then wages are not "enough" to prevent you from becoming crazy rich later on.
People expect from all games to be like most CRPGs, which means: player is able to buy everything worth buying from mid game onwards. If not earlier. I for once welcome games like BB (or KotC2) where money is actually limited also past the early game. You either go for "good enough" brothers or spend a lot of money to get "the best" ones. Money that could have been spent on named items. Those are choices and consequences bitches! Real ones, not the: "will i get the nice image nr 1 or nr 2 - after the game already ended" kind Codex loves so much.
I sort of agree with one thing. Without the ability to pay to see recruits' traits - it would be too much randomness for my taste. There are a few traits that can make a bro much less useful than his stats would indicate. IIRC long time ago the game didn't have that option.
What i would probably do if i was developing would be making so that some backgrounds have tendency (but not guarantee) to have stars in the "correct" areas. If a farmhand has stats all over place it make sense. But when a highly specialised background do it, it's less sensible. Especially bros starting with levels. How the hell did they become and then survive being a, say, sellsword, not having talent for either melee attack or defense? A guy like that from time to time - sure, he was lucky. Many however should be more often talented in right areas than others.
Still, I'm pretty OK with the way it currently works.
- When you get a man with stars in the crucial stat(s) - you're good.
- If you have one with high stats but no stars, you're OK.
- If you get one with a good trait, which you can know beforehand, and mediocre but not abysmal stats: OK again.
- If you get good stats AND stars and/or traits, you got yourself an excellent bro, way above average.
- And if you get one with no stars and low roll, well, that's where having to spend additional money comes to play.
Makes sense to me.
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Legends intend to bring it back? I understand that they abandoned the idea and only left some "magic" origins and a few events because it was impossible to implement and balance properly? That's not the case then?
I would really prefer if they worked on horse combat instead - but it seems they hit a technical wall or got disinterested. Horses would add a lot of additional options, be OP in a good way (enemy could use them too) AND would be more within the original idea of BB than fireballs.
Darth Canoli
Arcane
The Seer magic missile was overpowered.
The idea wasn't abandoned though.
Magic Origins is an independent submod working with Both legends and PTR (with or without PTR).
The modder is unavailable at the moment but will return, his mod worked quite well up until the latest DLC and Legends update.
His magic users which were quite overpowered at first were balanced, it's still powerful but alright if you don't manage to recruit 3 elementalists.
HumanTotemPole
Augur
- Joined
- May 2, 2012
- Messages
- 537
The process of turning a bunch of mook losers into formidable fighting men is one of BB's most enduring sources of appeal. I think the community loses sight of that sometimes.
Largely the subreddit's fault. New players tend to gravitate towards it because of its visibility but most of the recruitment advice there is autistic wishcasting or requires the use of mods. Same for their build advice too e.g. the nimble rework completely shattered the old BF or bust meta and dramatically increased the pool of viable bros. The average BB redditor's response? Switching to claims that 100hp is 'baseline' for a nimble bro. Morons, totally detached from the reality of actually playing the game.
Doesn't help that a lot of the available guides are out of date or have similarly unrealistic standards for bros or builds. The game is at a point where its never been easier to build a viable bro, especially with the new toys the DLCs gave us. Vaguely recall it being flexible like this pre new perk tree (rip old executioner and perfect focus archers) but I may be wrong - I didn't get to play with the old perks for very long.
Not sure if its already been posted but I thoroughly recommend this guide to anybody looking for good reference material. I don't agree with everything therein e.g. I'd argue Bullseye is sometimes more useful than the author believes but the understanding of BB's mechanical nuances is top notch.
Largely the subreddit's fault. New players tend to gravitate towards it because of its visibility but most of the recruitment advice there is autistic wishcasting or requires the use of mods. Same for their build advice too e.g. the nimble rework completely shattered the old BF or bust meta and dramatically increased the pool of viable bros. The average BB redditor's response? Switching to claims that 100hp is 'baseline' for a nimble bro. Morons, totally detached from the reality of actually playing the game.
Doesn't help that a lot of the available guides are out of date or have similarly unrealistic standards for bros or builds. The game is at a point where its never been easier to build a viable bro, especially with the new toys the DLCs gave us. Vaguely recall it being flexible like this pre new perk tree (rip old executioner and perfect focus archers) but I may be wrong - I didn't get to play with the old perks for very long.
Not sure if its already been posted but I thoroughly recommend this guide to anybody looking for good reference material. I don't agree with everything therein e.g. I'd argue Bullseye is sometimes more useful than the author believes but the understanding of BB's mechanical nuances is top notch.
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k0syak
Cipher
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2013
- Messages
- 423
The conscripts have worse armor and defense than raiders, what are you on about?! They are also weak against armor and get wrecked by fire pots themselves.
Brancaleone
Prophet
Absolutely, the game is now full of 'pay to win' options (i.e. consumables) or alternatives that have no trade-off or drawbacks, or things that eliminate even the 5% failure chance (which, in a game that is all about risk-management, is a BIG deal).
Nets are sure-hit, dirty cheap, and trivialize high-defense enemies. Grenades are expensive, but also have a 100% chance to work. A 110 MAtk Swordmaster has more chance of failure against a 1hp, stunned, dazed, netted, fleeing goblin than a primitive concoction (which will infallibly work).
Throwing weapons trivialize the lack of ranged skill: at range 2, the difference between a bow quick shot and a throwing weapon is a staggering 24 (a bow has -4% per tile), i.e. six levels' worth of max rolls. At range 2 your 40 RAtk thrower will hit like a 64 RAtk bowman. Then if you want you get an absurd amount of damage increase with mastery, and a 25% to ignore armour with duelist. Only drawback is ammo cost/capacity (which are also a factor for bows, albeit less so), i.e., another 'pay to win' (so to speak) option.
Taunt and whips trivialize non-beast scary enemies. At the very least whips should check against MAtk, not MDef: the way it is, your 45 MAtk, 40 MDef Peddler has like 95% less chance to drop his weapon than an Orc Warlord.
Quick Hands trivializes positioning: why should I wreck my brain in order to position the most appropriate bro to face the most appropriate enemy, when I can have a Swiss Army knife (with even the option of ridiculous Billhook-Two Handed Cleaver combos in the same turn, for free)?
[edit]
So while I wholeheartedly agree that it's never been easier to build viable bros, perhaps calling it flexible is slightly misleading: now there are quite a few of high reward-no drawback options that give dumb plays a huge pass (nimble, throwing weapons, consumables, etc.), plus a few extremely expensive and much more difficult to implement options that are relegated to niche cases or that give you a bit of extra edge in some selected end-game fights.
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Absolutely not true at all. I had an Asthmatic Hedge Knight once. It doesn't get more end game than HK and it doesn't get more crippling than Asthmatic. And the last part is false IF you know how this game balance its encounters. Essentially the only way a player can get ahead on the power curve is by having way above average bros. Numbers and gear are compensated by the game with more/tougher enemies. So playing the recruitment roulette is essential for success. Or cheating said roulette, which is what I and 99% of the community do. Incidentally that's why it's so hard for discussion on BB to move forward: the "hardcore fans" are either liars or masochists. The risk-to-reward ratio of fighting most monsters in this game is unjustifiable and other fights aren't much better. And then you now have the Arena, a place where you can earn roughly the same as a contract while fighting snakes, hyenas and mooks. High reward, low risk.
Did you watch a thread about a game you don't give a shit about for god knows how many years just so you could post this when someone changed their mind? I didn't really change my mind, but I do think B&E is absolute trash and the game is improved 500% once that terrible DLC is uninstalled.
There is no tweak, Sandniggers are stronger than either orc or undead, to the point where it prevents a sane player from going "random" on their first crisis. Holy war isn't winnable (as first crisis).
With the exception of throwing nets, all those other options are expensive, meaning such OP tools are restricted to post 1st crisis gameplay.
Last but not least, back on the recruitment roulette: you shouldn't have to pay to figure out a guy is a giant or a midget, or clubfooted or has asthma. That's something a mercenary captain would notice just by taking a quick look at the candidate. The recruitment system of BB is terrible and unfun from a gameplay perspective AND also unrealistic gamey and nonsensical. It's the worse of both worlds. OTOH a background like "killer on the run" actually IS something that could reasonably be hidden from the captain, but this one we always know. Thanks, Obama.
Brancaleone
Prophet
The triad Nimble, Throwing Weapons and nets is enough to faceroll everything until the 1st crisis at the very least. Taunt is free, Nimble actually represents a net saving (in tools you won't use for repairing armour), whips are cheap. Throwing ammo are expensive only relatively to standard ammo, not in an absolute sense. If you have four throwers, and use up two stacks each in a battle (which you definitely will not need to do every time, and you'll need less javelins/axes than arrows to kill the same enemies), you'll use about 240 gold of ammo at a standard price, vs the 80 gold of four archers using one quiver each (but the archers will also cost you about 40 gold for repairing their bows). Grenades are expensive if bought, not so much if crafted, and you can even get them for free in southern camps.
The focus of the post was not so much about things being easier/harder, but on dumber/more sophisticated alternatives, i.e. something that forces me to take into account more variables/factor vs something that makes those variables/factors irrelevant. In that sense, nimble is an extremely dumb alternative, i.e., by picking it I can forget about so many variable/factors it's ridiculous. And that, from my perspective, is not good for the gameplay.
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k0syak
Cipher
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2013
- Messages
- 423
Hedge Knights can't have the asthmatic, clubfooted or manlet traits (along with a bunch of others). North vs South is absolutely winnable as first crisis (way harder, but still).
Thanks, Obama!
HumanTotemPole
Augur
- Joined
- May 2, 2012
- Messages
- 537
IIRC it was possible to get bad traits on combat backgrounds earlier in the game's development. Thankfully no longer since the introduction of excluded traits by background.
Edit: still a few shitters in there e.g Swordmasters can still roll Asthmatic according to the wiki.
Further edit: and rather regrettably Bastards are not allowed to be Fat.
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Brancaleone
Prophet
But they are allowed to be Gluttonous, so, with a bit of luck...
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