Incline Battle Brothers + Beasts & Exploration, Warriors of the North and Blazing Deserts DLC Thread

[Lios]

One-hander hammer duelist bros for the win!

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

So why is this build so underrated by many?

Because it's a crappy build that only sort of 'works' because it has an exceptional Swordmaster as a base. But again, even the dumbest melee build will sort of 'work' with 95 attack and 66 defense.

The main point of pumping Initiative is not, as you say, for dodge (that extra amount of defense is negligible): it's in order to get the extra damage when you Lunge. You got a background that starts with a heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue, and that is going to get the Old trait, which means a further heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue. Once your Old Swordmaster has 95 starting Initiative, he will be 6 Initiative away from lunging with a penalty to damage, which will quickly become heavier and heavier, since between Lunge and Footwork this is a Fatigue-intensive build, without the stats to support it. So you are left to slash away with a not very good sword that has its main advantage turned into a disadvantage.

This is completely wrong in just about every way:

- Dodge is amazing for defense on this build - you can easily get your initiative up to 120-130 on a Swordmaster by level 11, so after all the equipment penalties, it should be 100+. It was 103 on my dude. So at around 100 Initiative, the defense bonus to dodge would be 15 mdef and rdef, or in other words, the same as a standard shield. This is negligible?

- I don't think building a Lunge damage build is very practical. First, you need like 187 Initiative for it to double regular attack damage, and how many backgrounds would allow for that? And those probably have crappy mattack and mdef stats in most cases. But even if you do, lunge is so fatigue heavy to use and situational, it's next to impossible to spam it, so why make a build around its damage? To me, lunge is a lot more useful as a mobility thing, to ensure getting 2 hits every round at least, and to get around the battlefield, while doing most damage with regular attacks.

- Old trait is not guaranteed, on my previous swordmaster, I got the getting old event without getting the old trait, he just asked for a salary decrease. If you do get it, you can find an item which negates it on one guy.

- my build is not fatigue intensive at all, read the perks I selected. I had 64 fatigue at level 11. With light equipment (fencing sword, lamelar armor, sallet helmet), you don't need much fatigue, and with Sword Mastery you barely spend any on attacks, just limit your use of Lunges to be situational and you will be fine.

And the moral of the story is:

- forest fights are bad, they've always been bad and the community is made up of retards who fail to point that out, which means they will always be bad.
- Swordmasters are also fucking bad. Check the spreedsheets, WORSE stats-for-the-gold ratio. Go Hedge Knight/Oathtaker/Anatomist or go for a cheap background.
- Sword duelists just need so many fucking stats, at that point ANYTHING would "work".

Forest fights are indeed bad. Aside from sometimes being death-traps, they are just generally boring cause everything takes way too long, and the effing trees always make any kind of organized movement a hassle.

Stat to gold ratio is pointless. After a while, your company should be rolling in gold, so spending a bit more for a premium fun build is ok, even if it's not optimal in terms of value. For pure value, nothing can touch crossbowmen and footmen from poor backgrounds.

- forest fights are bad, they've always been bad and the community is made up of retards who fail to point that out, which means they will always be bad.

1) Swamps are worse.

Lol, my most hated company wipes have been the swamp fights against Brigands with a Necromancer. He keeps resummoning them as undead, while your dudes are all exhausted from swamp crap.

Well, I just got ROYALLY F-U-C-K-E-D in my campaign...

I managed to save quite a few a dudes, but still, lost 8 prime killers.

Did teh swordu-masataru survive?

No... Being surrounded in the forest, I panicked and sent him against what I thought were 2 pikemen, but there were like 6 other enemies hidden in that area, so they surrounded him, and he had the "Pessimist" trait, so he routed pretty quickly. And died. Maybe I will get Lone Wolf next time.

 

[Brancaleone]

So why is this build so underrated by many?

Because it's a crappy build that only sort of 'works' because it has an exceptional Swordmaster as a base. But again, even the dumbest melee build will sort of 'work' with 95 attack and 66 defense.

The main point of pumping Initiative is not, as you say, for dodge (that extra amount of defense is negligible): it's in order to get the extra damage when you Lunge. You got a background that starts with a heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue, and that is going to get the Old trait, which means a further heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue. Once your Old Swordmaster has 95 starting Initiative, he will be 6 Initiative away from lunging with a penalty to damage, which will quickly become heavier and heavier, since between Lunge and Footwork this is a Fatigue-intensive build, without the stats to support it. So you are left to slash away with a not very good sword that has its main advantage turned into a disadvantage.

This is completely wrong in just about every way:

- Dodge is amazing for defense on this build - you can easily get your initiative up to 120-130 on a Swordmaster by level 11, so after all the equipment penalties, it should be 100+. It was 103 on my dude. So at around 100 Initiative, the defense bonus to dodge would be 15 mdef and rdef, or in other words, the same as a standard shield. This is negligible?

- I don't think building a Lunge damage build is very practical. First, you need like 187 Initiative for it to double regular attack damage, and how many backgrounds would allow for that? And those probably have crappy mattack and mdef stats in most cases. But even if you do, lunge is so fatigue heavy to use and situational, it's next to impossible to spam it, so why make a build around its damage? To me, lunge is a lot more useful as a mobility thing, to ensure getting 2 hits every round at least, and to get around the battlefield, while doing most damage with regular attacks.

- Old trait is not guaranteed, on my previous swordmaster, I got the getting old event without getting the old trait, he just asked for a salary decrease. If you do get it, you can find an item which negates it on one guy.

- my build is not fatigue intensive at all, read the perks I selected. I had 64 fatigue at level 11. With light equipment (fencing sword, lamelar armor, sallet helmet), you don't need much fatigue, and with Sword Mastery you barely spend any on attacks, just limit your use of Lunges to be situational and you will be fine.

You really are a poster-child for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

You lucked into an exceptional specimen (we are talking about a 0,01 outlier at the very least), and you managed to butcher it into possibly the worst build/role combination. Only way you could have done anything more stupid would have been turning him into a ranged unit.

Leveling initiative in order to get defense is a bad trade-off if done in order to get extra defense, since it's at most 1 post of temporary defence for every 6-7 points of Initiative, which comes of course at the price of not leveling up other stats. That's how you end up with a 11 level mercenary with 63 hp with Colossus, that will become 53 hp if he gets the Old trait. And with a Nimble build on top of that. Good job, really.
On the other hand, leveling initiative makes a lot of sense if you choose the fencing sword, since damage modifiers are really rare in Battle Brothers. Which means you have to select an appropriate background/specimen (which you didn't), and be able to manage fatigue properly.

Getting the most out of a Lunging build is not especially difficult: of course, you need at least a passing understanding of BB mechanics. Which brings us to...

The funny thing is that you seem to feel so clever for crippling your super-Swordmaster into a dumb mobility-based build focusing on Footwork and a neutered Lunge: guess what, with 71-66 defense, it's the very last kind of build that needs to waste a perk with Footwork or using a Fencing Sword just to jump around, since with that monstrous level of defense he can just waltz into and out of enemies' faces without the need to waste perks or fatigue (and thus futher reducing the Lunge damage). Didn't you learn anything from enemy Assassins/Swordmasters?

So, once again, no, it's not an underrated build. That's not really the adjective for it.

 

[vazha]

Did teh swordu-masataru survive?

No... Being surrounded in the forest, I panicked and sent him against what I thought were 2 pikemen, but there were like 6 other enemies hidden in that area, so they surrounded him, and he had the "Pessimist" trait, so he routed pretty quickly. And died. Maybe I will get Lone Wolf next time.

Sooo... they surrounded him, right? And he didnt have underdog, right? Well.
p.s. old is inevitable. The salary decrease is a precursor event.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

So why is this build so underrated by many?

Because it's a crappy build that only sort of 'works' because it has an exceptional Swordmaster as a base. But again, even the dumbest melee build will sort of 'work' with 95 attack and 66 defense.

The main point of pumping Initiative is not, as you say, for dodge (that extra amount of defense is negligible): it's in order to get the extra damage when you Lunge. You got a background that starts with a heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue, and that is going to get the Old trait, which means a further heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue. Once your Old Swordmaster has 95 starting Initiative, he will be 6 Initiative away from lunging with a penalty to damage, which will quickly become heavier and heavier, since between Lunge and Footwork this is a Fatigue-intensive build, without the stats to support it. So you are left to slash away with a not very good sword that has its main advantage turned into a disadvantage.

This is completely wrong in just about every way:

- Dodge is amazing for defense on this build - you can easily get your initiative up to 120-130 on a Swordmaster by level 11, so after all the equipment penalties, it should be 100+. It was 103 on my dude. So at around 100 Initiative, the defense bonus to dodge would be 15 mdef and rdef, or in other words, the same as a standard shield. This is negligible?

- I don't think building a Lunge damage build is very practical. First, you need like 187 Initiative for it to double regular attack damage, and how many backgrounds would allow for that? And those probably have crappy mattack and mdef stats in most cases. But even if you do, lunge is so fatigue heavy to use and situational, it's next to impossible to spam it, so why make a build around its damage? To me, lunge is a lot more useful as a mobility thing, to ensure getting 2 hits every round at least, and to get around the battlefield, while doing most damage with regular attacks.

- Old trait is not guaranteed, on my previous swordmaster, I got the getting old event without getting the old trait, he just asked for a salary decrease. If you do get it, you can find an item which negates it on one guy.

- my build is not fatigue intensive at all, read the perks I selected. I had 64 fatigue at level 11. With light equipment (fencing sword, lamelar armor, sallet helmet), you don't need much fatigue, and with Sword Mastery you barely spend any on attacks, just limit your use of Lunges to be situational and you will be fine.

You really are a poster-child for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Yes, more ad hominems please, they just let me know I am winning more.

You lucked into an exceptional specimen (we are talking about a 0,01 outlier at the very least), and you managed to butcher it into possibly the worst build/role combination. Only way you could have done anything more stupid would have been turning him into a ranged unit.

Uh, wrong, as I already mentioned, I didn't luck into anything, he was the third Swordmaster I hired in this campaign, I let the first 2 go because I wasn't happy with their stats. Nice try though.

Leveling initiative in order to get defense is a bad trade-off if done in order to get extra defense, since it's at most 1 post of temporary defence for every 6-7 points of Initiative, which comes of course at the price of not leveling up other stats.

Wrong again, your track record on being wrong is stellar. There is no trade-off since every level I would level up mdef first, and only then if nothing else was more worth it, I would dump points into Initiative. Since he was going to suck against ranged anyway, I didn't spend points on rdef, he already had high resolve and I put some points into that also, and as for health, he had no stars in that, so I could only increase it by like 2 points per level. 5 points of initiative per level > 2 points of health for a guy built around damage avoidance.

That's how you end up with a 11 level mercenary with 63 hp with Colossus,

This was more than enough for something like 100 battles. This guy almost never gets hit, when he rarely does get hit, the 120/110 armor takes care of it, and if something gets past that, Nimble will take care of it.

On the other hand, leveling initiative makes a lot of sense if you choose the fencing sword, since damage modifiers are really rare in Battle Brothers. Which means you have to select an appropriate background/specimen (which you didn't), and be able to manage fatigue properly.

Now you are just engaging in a really silly circular non-argument, something like "you didn't use this great build of mine on this guy, for which you would've needed another guy anyway..." Lol.

Getting the most out of a Lunging build is not especially difficult: of course, you need at least a passing understanding of BB mechanics. Which brings us to...

1. I wasn't going for a Lunging build, so I don't even know why you keep bringing it up.
2. However, I will humor you, and question the feasibility of a lunging build in general. To use Lunge consistently and not just like a closer like I was doing, you would need to use Lunge (~20 fatigue) and then I guess Footwork back so you can use it again (another ~20 fatigue). What kind of a build would allow you to constantly burn 40 fatigue per turn and still remain functional? But even if you could, and even if you had enough Ini to use it for full damage (twice the normal attack damage), for which you would need an entirely different background (itt only ratcatchers, jugglers, and maybe thieves have that kind of Ini), you would still get only 1 Lunge per turn, so your dps would be exactly the same as a guy doing 2 normal attacks per turn, except he d inflict 2 injuries in that time, AND those backgrounds have shitty other stats, so it would be way worse.

The funny thing is that you seem to feel so clever for crippling your super-Swordmaster into a dumb mobility-based build focusing on Footwork and a neutered Lunge: guess what, with 71-66 defense, it's the very last kind of build that needs to waste a perk with Footwork or using a Fencing Sword just to jump around, since with that monstrous level of defense he can just waltz into and out of enemies' faces without the need to waste perks or fatigue (and thus futher reducing the Lunge damage). Didn't you learn anything from enemy Assassins/Swordmasters?

I got him Footwork for defensive purposes (getting out of tight spots), not for offense. So like if he suddenly gets hit for massive damage and needs to gtfo out there without risking another hit (which BB has a lot of). Is it the best perk for him? Maybe not, but literally doesn't have anything to do with the main argument at hand.

Did teh swordu-masataru survive?

No... Being surrounded in the forest, I panicked and sent him against what I thought were 2 pikemen, but there were like 6 other enemies hidden in that area, so they surrounded him, and he had the "Pessimist" trait, so he routed pretty quickly. And died. Maybe I will get Lone Wolf next time.

Sooo... they surrounded him, right? And he didnt have underdog, right? Well.
p.s. old is inevitable. The salary decrease is a precursor event.

He didn't die because of not having underdog. He died because once they were around him (not actually adjacent but just loosely around), he started losing resolve fast (had about 66 but also Pessimist trait ). So he quickly routed and got cut down trying to flee. If I was going to change anything, I would probably get Lone Wolf instead of Underdog, LW gets +15% resolve bonus as well as attach and mdef bonuses, so that might help for those cases where these guys get separated from the main force, I noticed they lose resolve fast then.

I don't believe Old is inevitable. It can happen or not. I got the event without it, and I leveled him from 1 to 11.

 

[Brancaleone]

So why is this build so underrated by many?

Because it's a crappy build that only sort of 'works' because it has an exceptional Swordmaster as a base. But again, even the dumbest melee build will sort of 'work' with 95 attack and 66 defense.

The main point of pumping Initiative is not, as you say, for dodge (that extra amount of defense is negligible): it's in order to get the extra damage when you Lunge. You got a background that starts with a heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue, and that is going to get the Old trait, which means a further heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue. Once your Old Swordmaster has 95 starting Initiative, he will be 6 Initiative away from lunging with a penalty to damage, which will quickly become heavier and heavier, since between Lunge and Footwork this is a Fatigue-intensive build, without the stats to support it. So you are left to slash away with a not very good sword that has its main advantage turned into a disadvantage.

This is completely wrong in just about every way:

- Dodge is amazing for defense on this build - you can easily get your initiative up to 120-130 on a Swordmaster by level 11, so after all the equipment penalties, it should be 100+. It was 103 on my dude. So at around 100 Initiative, the defense bonus to dodge would be 15 mdef and rdef, or in other words, the same as a standard shield. This is negligible?

- I don't think building a Lunge damage build is very practical. First, you need like 187 Initiative for it to double regular attack damage, and how many backgrounds would allow for that? And those probably have crappy mattack and mdef stats in most cases. But even if you do, lunge is so fatigue heavy to use and situational, it's next to impossible to spam it, so why make a build around its damage? To me, lunge is a lot more useful as a mobility thing, to ensure getting 2 hits every round at least, and to get around the battlefield, while doing most damage with regular attacks.

- Old trait is not guaranteed, on my previous swordmaster, I got the getting old event without getting the old trait, he just asked for a salary decrease. If you do get it, you can find an item which negates it on one guy.

- my build is not fatigue intensive at all, read the perks I selected. I had 64 fatigue at level 11. With light equipment (fencing sword, lamelar armor, sallet helmet), you don't need much fatigue, and with Sword Mastery you barely spend any on attacks, just limit your use of Lunges to be situational and you will be fine.

You really are a poster-child for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Yes, more ad hominems please, they just let me know I am winning more.

You lucked into an exceptional specimen (we are talking about a 0,01 outlier at the very least), and you managed to butcher it into possibly the worst build/role combination. Only way you could have done anything more stupid would have been turning him into a ranged unit.

Uh, wrong, as I already mentioned, I didn't luck into anything, he was the third Swordmaster I hired in this campaign, I let the first 2 go because I wasn't happy with their stats. Nice try though.

Leveling initiative in order to get defense is a bad trade-off if done in order to get extra defense, since it's at most 1 post of temporary defence for every 6-7 points of Initiative, which comes of course at the price of not leveling up other stats.

Wrong again, your track record on being wrong is stellar. There is no trade-off since every level I would level up mdef first, and only then if nothing else was more worth it, I would dump points into Initiative. Since he was going to suck against ranged anyway, I didn't spend points on rdef, he already had high resolve and I put some points into that also, and as for health, he had no stars in that, so I could only increase it by like 2 points per level. 5 points of initiative per level > 2 points of health for a guy built around damage avoidance.

That's how you end up with a 11 level mercenary with 63 hp with Colossus,

This was more than enough for something like 100 battles. This guy almost never gets hit, when he rarely does get hit, the 120/110 armor takes care of it, and if something gets past that, Nimble will take care of it.

On the other hand, leveling initiative makes a lot of sense if you choose the fencing sword, since damage modifiers are really rare in Battle Brothers. Which means you have to select an appropriate background/specimen (which you didn't), and be able to manage fatigue properly.

Now you are just engaging in a really silly circular non-argument, something like "you didn't use this great build of mine on this guy, for which you would've needed another guy anyway..." Lol.

Getting the most out of a Lunging build is not especially difficult: of course, you need at least a passing understanding of BB mechanics. Which brings us to...

1. I wasn't going for a Lunging build, so I don't even know why you keep bringing it up.
2. However, I will humor you, and question the feasibility of a lunging build in general. To use Lunge consistently and not just like a closer like I was doing, you would need to use Lunge (~20 fatigue) and then I guess Footwork back so you can use it again (another ~20 fatigue). What kind of a build would allow you to constantly burn 40 fatigue per turn and still remain functional? But even if you could, and even if you had enough Ini to use it for full damage (twice the normal attack damage), for which you would need an entirely different background (itt only ratcatchers, jugglers, and maybe thieves have that kind of Ini), you would still get only 1 Lunge per turn, so your dps would be exactly the same as a guy doing 2 normal attacks per turn, except he d inflict 2 injuries in that time, AND those backgrounds have shitty other stats, so it would be way worse.

The funny thing is that you seem to feel so clever for crippling your super-Swordmaster into a dumb mobility-based build focusing on Footwork and a neutered Lunge: guess what, with 71-66 defense, it's the very last kind of build that needs to waste a perk with Footwork or using a Fencing Sword just to jump around, since with that monstrous level of defense he can just waltz into and out of enemies' faces without the need to waste perks or fatigue (and thus futher reducing the Lunge damage). Didn't you learn anything from enemy Assassins/Swordmasters?

I got him Footwork for defensive purposes (getting out of tight spots), not for offense. So like if he suddenly gets hit for massive damage and needs to gtfo out there without risking another hit (which BB has a lot of). Is it the best perk for him? Maybe not, but literally doesn't have anything to do with the main argument at hand.

Are you a Llilura disciple, who thinks that in order to be authoritative you only have to scream "I am authoritative" all the time while spouting bullshit?

Do you realize how many Swordsmaster are around on average? And among them, how many have 23 initial defence PLUS two stars? Yes, exactly. Or do you think every third Swordmaster comes with that?

I manage to make Lunge builds work pretty well in terms of extra damage even with medium famed armour and Battle Forged (I never do Nimble because it feels like cheating). With Nimble and light equipment, a lounger becomes really a monster with the right recruit. You simply have no idea how to manage fatigue (on par with the rest of the basics, apparently), or what build is appropriate with which stats/background.

So you got your truly exceptional speciment survive 100 battles in spite of an abysmal build. As I said already, with that kind of recruit, even the dumbest build will sort of work, even in the hands of a very unskilled player.

Do we have to go on on the rest of the perks, or on why in the world on day 210+ you are equipping such a specimen with Sallet, Lamellar Leather and Wolf attachment?

Edit: oh, I had missed the fact that he had the Pessimist trait. You know what's bad for Pessimists? Yes, getting a lot of morale checks from enemies getting into contact with them. Also wandering away from the Bannerman's morale umbrella. So here is the final stroke of genius, let's make our Pessimist a flanker in order to maximize both his wanderings away from the Bannerman and the number of enemies that might get into contact with him. Chapeau!

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

So why is this build so underrated by many?

Because it's a crappy build that only sort of 'works' because it has an exceptional Swordmaster as a base. But again, even the dumbest melee build will sort of 'work' with 95 attack and 66 defense.

The main point of pumping Initiative is not, as you say, for dodge (that extra amount of defense is negligible): it's in order to get the extra damage when you Lunge. You got a background that starts with a heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue, and that is going to get the Old trait, which means a further heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue. Once your Old Swordmaster has 95 starting Initiative, he will be 6 Initiative away from lunging with a penalty to damage, which will quickly become heavier and heavier, since between Lunge and Footwork this is a Fatigue-intensive build, without the stats to support it. So you are left to slash away with a not very good sword that has its main advantage turned into a disadvantage.

This is completely wrong in just about every way:

- Dodge is amazing for defense on this build - you can easily get your initiative up to 120-130 on a Swordmaster by level 11, so after all the equipment penalties, it should be 100+. It was 103 on my dude. So at around 100 Initiative, the defense bonus to dodge would be 15 mdef and rdef, or in other words, the same as a standard shield. This is negligible?

- I don't think building a Lunge damage build is very practical. First, you need like 187 Initiative for it to double regular attack damage, and how many backgrounds would allow for that? And those probably have crappy mattack and mdef stats in most cases. But even if you do, lunge is so fatigue heavy to use and situational, it's next to impossible to spam it, so why make a build around its damage? To me, lunge is a lot more useful as a mobility thing, to ensure getting 2 hits every round at least, and to get around the battlefield, while doing most damage with regular attacks.

- Old trait is not guaranteed, on my previous swordmaster, I got the getting old event without getting the old trait, he just asked for a salary decrease. If you do get it, you can find an item which negates it on one guy.

- my build is not fatigue intensive at all, read the perks I selected. I had 64 fatigue at level 11. With light equipment (fencing sword, lamelar armor, sallet helmet), you don't need much fatigue, and with Sword Mastery you barely spend any on attacks, just limit your use of Lunges to be situational and you will be fine.

You really are a poster-child for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Yes, more ad hominems please, they just let me know I am winning more.

You lucked into an exceptional specimen (we are talking about a 0,01 outlier at the very least), and you managed to butcher it into possibly the worst build/role combination. Only way you could have done anything more stupid would have been turning him into a ranged unit.

Uh, wrong, as I already mentioned, I didn't luck into anything, he was the third Swordmaster I hired in this campaign, I let the first 2 go because I wasn't happy with their stats. Nice try though.

Leveling initiative in order to get defense is a bad trade-off if done in order to get extra defense, since it's at most 1 post of temporary defence for every 6-7 points of Initiative, which comes of course at the price of not leveling up other stats.

Wrong again, your track record on being wrong is stellar. There is no trade-off since every level I would level up mdef first, and only then if nothing else was more worth it, I would dump points into Initiative. Since he was going to suck against ranged anyway, I didn't spend points on rdef, he already had high resolve and I put some points into that also, and as for health, he had no stars in that, so I could only increase it by like 2 points per level. 5 points of initiative per level > 2 points of health for a guy built around damage avoidance.

That's how you end up with a 11 level mercenary with 63 hp with Colossus,

This was more than enough for something like 100 battles. This guy almost never gets hit, when he rarely does get hit, the 120/110 armor takes care of it, and if something gets past that, Nimble will take care of it.

On the other hand, leveling initiative makes a lot of sense if you choose the fencing sword, since damage modifiers are really rare in Battle Brothers. Which means you have to select an appropriate background/specimen (which you didn't), and be able to manage fatigue properly.

Now you are just engaging in a really silly circular non-argument, something like "you didn't use this great build of mine on this guy, for which you would've needed another guy anyway..." Lol.

Getting the most out of a Lunging build is not especially difficult: of course, you need at least a passing understanding of BB mechanics. Which brings us to...

1. I wasn't going for a Lunging build, so I don't even know why you keep bringing it up.
2. However, I will humor you, and question the feasibility of a lunging build in general. To use Lunge consistently and not just like a closer like I was doing, you would need to use Lunge (~20 fatigue) and then I guess Footwork back so you can use it again (another ~20 fatigue). What kind of a build would allow you to constantly burn 40 fatigue per turn and still remain functional? But even if you could, and even if you had enough Ini to use it for full damage (twice the normal attack damage), for which you would need an entirely different background (itt only ratcatchers, jugglers, and maybe thieves have that kind of Ini), you would still get only 1 Lunge per turn, so your dps would be exactly the same as a guy doing 2 normal attacks per turn, except he d inflict 2 injuries in that time, AND those backgrounds have shitty other stats, so it would be way worse.

The funny thing is that you seem to feel so clever for crippling your super-Swordmaster into a dumb mobility-based build focusing on Footwork and a neutered Lunge: guess what, with 71-66 defense, it's the very last kind of build that needs to waste a perk with Footwork or using a Fencing Sword just to jump around, since with that monstrous level of defense he can just waltz into and out of enemies' faces without the need to waste perks or fatigue (and thus futher reducing the Lunge damage). Didn't you learn anything from enemy Assassins/Swordmasters?

I got him Footwork for defensive purposes (getting out of tight spots), not for offense. So like if he suddenly gets hit for massive damage and needs to gtfo out there without risking another hit (which BB has a lot of). Is it the best perk for him? Maybe not, but literally doesn't have anything to do with the main argument at hand.

Are you a Llilura disciple, who thinks that in order to be authoritative you only have to scream "I am authoritative" all the time while spouting bullshit?

Yay, more ad hominem attacks, feed me moar...

Do you realize how many Swordsmaster are around on average? And among them, how many have 23 initial defence PLUS two stars? Yes, exactly. Or do you think every third Swordmaster comes with that?

It's not that uncommon. Swordmasters start with 10-20 mdef, so all you need is a trait like Sure Footing. A few points up or down don't change the argument anyway.

I manage to make Lunge builds work pretty well in terms of extra damage even with medium famed armour and Battle Forged (I never do Nimble because it feels like cheating). With Nimble and light equipment, a lounger becomes really a monster with the right recruit. You simply have no idea how to manage fatigue (on par with the rest of the basics, apparently), or what build is appropriate with which stats/background.

Translation: "Despite your logical argument about why my build sucks, I manage to make it work, with no explanation given as to how."

Ok, tiger.

So you got your truly exceptional speciment survive 100 battles in spite of an abysmal build. As I said already, with that kind of recruit, even the dumbest build will sort of work, even in the hands of a very unskilled player.

Another ad hominem without any noticeable point of any sort.

Do we have to go on on the rest of the perks, or on why in the world on day 210+ you are equipping such a specimen with Sallet, Lamellar Leather and Wolf attachment?

Because I am playing at my pace and not rushing? Those are excellent pieces of equipment for this build btw, short of unique named items.

Edit: oh, I had missed the fact that he had the Pessimist trait. You know what's bad for Pessimists? Yes, getting a lot of morale checks from enemies getting into contact with them. Also wandering away from the Bannerman's morale umbrella. So here is the final stroke of genius, let's make our Pessimist a flanker in order to maximize both his wanderings away from the Bannerman and the number of enemies that might get into contact with him. Chapeau!

A flanker on average deals with less enemies than someone in the middle of the battle line, and obviously you can't make a Swordmaster/Duelist a frontline dude anyway, so I don't get your point here. Or anywhere for that matter.

 

[k0syak]

I like fencing swords on tanks for an additional repositioning option.
Also, Brancaleone there's a gimmick build for an overwhelm daggerbro that doesn't care about MA and takes both initiative and MD on every level-up

 

[Brancaleone]

Yay, more ad hominem attacks, feed me moar...

Do you realize how many Swordsmaster are around on average? And among them, how many have 23 initial defence PLUS two stars? Yes, exactly. Or do you think every third Swordmaster comes with that?

It's not that uncommon. Swordmasters start with 10-20 mdef, so all you need is a trait like Sure Footing. A few points up or down don't change the argument anyway.

I manage to make Lunge builds work pretty well in terms of extra damage even with medium famed armour and Battle Forged (I never do Nimble because it feels like cheating). With Nimble and light equipment, a lounger becomes really a monster with the right recruit. You simply have no idea how to manage fatigue (on par with the rest of the basics, apparently), or what build is appropriate with which stats/background.

Translation: "Despite your logical argument about why my build sucks, I manage to make it work, with no explanation given as to how."

Ok, tiger.

So you got your truly exceptional speciment survive 100 battles in spite of an abysmal build. As I said already, with that kind of recruit, even the dumbest build will sort of work, even in the hands of a very unskilled player.

Another ad hominem without any noticeable point of any sort.

Do we have to go on on the rest of the perks, or on why in the world on day 210+ you are equipping such a specimen with Sallet, Lamellar Leather and Wolf attachment?

Because I am playing at my pace and not rushing? Those are excellent pieces of equipment for this build btw, short of unique named items.

Edit: oh, I had missed the fact that he had the Pessimist trait. You know what's bad for Pessimists? Yes, getting a lot of morale checks from enemies getting into contact with them. Also wandering away from the Bannerman's morale umbrella. So here is the final stroke of genius, let's make our Pessimist a flanker in order to maximize both his wanderings away from the Bannerman and the number of enemies that might get into contact with him. Chapeau!

A flanker on average deals with less enemies than someone in the middle of the battle line, and obviously you can't make a Swordmaster/Duelist a frontline dude anyway, so I don't get your point here. Or anywhere for that matter.

Ok, then keep being the source of 90% of the retardation in this thread. Some day you will discover what makes a recruit exceptional, what perks and stats are for, stuff like Assassin's Robes/Masks, how builds work, the relative value of attachments depending on build/role, and so on.

Or most likely not, and you'll keep going around screaming blue murder because your backline gets shot in spite of being, and I quote you, "behind a line of guys with shields". No, I don't think you are going to solve that one (among so many others).

I like fencing swords on tanks for an additional repositioning option.
Also, Brancaleone there's a gimmick build for an overwhelm daggerbro that doesn't care about MA and takes both initiative and MD on every level-up

Yes, a Fencing Sword in the pocket/hand is a good option for those situations. Especially since in order to do that you just need the sword, without having to mess-up your build. Can't say I like it too much conceptually, though.

The overwhelm daggerbro I tried a few times, and it's downright broken in my book, it just ridiculises almost all of the scariest enemies in the game.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Yay, more ad hominem attacks, feed me moar...

Do you realize how many Swordsmaster are around on average? And among them, how many have 23 initial defence PLUS two stars? Yes, exactly. Or do you think every third Swordmaster comes with that?

It's not that uncommon. Swordmasters start with 10-20 mdef, so all you need is a trait like Sure Footing. A few points up or down don't change the argument anyway.

I manage to make Lunge builds work pretty well in terms of extra damage even with medium famed armour and Battle Forged (I never do Nimble because it feels like cheating). With Nimble and light equipment, a lounger becomes really a monster with the right recruit. You simply have no idea how to manage fatigue (on par with the rest of the basics, apparently), or what build is appropriate with which stats/background.

Translation: "Despite your logical argument about why my build sucks, I manage to make it work, with no explanation given as to how."

Ok, tiger.

So you got your truly exceptional speciment survive 100 battles in spite of an abysmal build. As I said already, with that kind of recruit, even the dumbest build will sort of work, even in the hands of a very unskilled player.

Another ad hominem without any noticeable point of any sort.

Do we have to go on on the rest of the perks, or on why in the world on day 210+ you are equipping such a specimen with Sallet, Lamellar Leather and Wolf attachment?

Because I am playing at my pace and not rushing? Those are excellent pieces of equipment for this build btw, short of unique named items.

Edit: oh, I had missed the fact that he had the Pessimist trait. You know what's bad for Pessimists? Yes, getting a lot of morale checks from enemies getting into contact with them. Also wandering away from the Bannerman's morale umbrella. So here is the final stroke of genius, let's make our Pessimist a flanker in order to maximize both his wanderings away from the Bannerman and the number of enemies that might get into contact with him. Chapeau!

A flanker on average deals with less enemies than someone in the middle of the battle line, and obviously you can't make a Swordmaster/Duelist a frontline dude anyway, so I don't get your point here. Or anywhere for that matter.

Ok, then keep being the source of 90% of the retardation in this thread. Some day you will discover what makes a recruit exceptional, what perks and stats are for, stuff like Assassin's Robes/Masks, how builds work, the relative value of attachments depending on build/role, and so on.

Or most likely not, and you'll keep going around screaming blue murder because your backline gets shot in spite of being, and I quote you, "behind a line of guys with shields". No, I don't think you are going to solve that one (among so many others).

Lol, your argument is "stop hurting me with logic, one day you will learn to be gud, and then you will understand why your logic won't work against me". Gj, breh.

 

[vazha]

PorkyThePaladin You seem to be taking this somewhat personally, man. Nobody here is out to "get you", all the criticism and advise you've got is legit, and most of them arent even debatable, you've got some straight up facts thrown at you. Half of the joy of playing BB is trying, erring and learning. No need to be butthurt about it when people point out what you've done wrong.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

PorkyThePaladin You seem to be taking this somewhat personally, man. Nobody here is out to "get you", all the criticism and advise you've got is legit, and most of them arent even debatable, you've got some straight up facts thrown at you. Half of the joy of playing BB is trying, erring and learning. No need to be butthurt about it when people point out what you've done wrong.

I am not taking anything personally, dawg. I just wrecked the previous idiot's arguments using rather simple logic, but if you want to come at me with your general platitudes, that's coo...

Back in my campaign, just got fucked by the game again. I ended the Noble war by destroying their big ass army, so peace settled upon the land. After a day or so, 99% of the settlements stopped being hostile to me (from the enemy noble house), so I was like, shiiiite, now I can travel around and trade and recruit dudes again. So I go to this citadel of the former enemy noble house, and get a mission to take out some orc base.

I go there and easily dispatch the orcs, when suddenly, right after that battle, I am immediately thrown into another battle against a large army of the formerly enemy noble house (an ambush). I guess those fucks still hated me... I take them out like a #2 after a cheap fast food restaurant, but now all the settlements of that noble house are hostile to me YET AGAIN. What a fucking bullshit move by the game... They start the ambush, and I gotta pay for it.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

PorkyThePaladin You seem to be taking this somewhat personally, man. Nobody here is out to "get you", all the criticism and advise you've got is legit, and most of them arent even debatable, you've got some straight up facts thrown at you. Half of the joy of playing BB is trying, erring and learning. No need to be butthurt about it when people point out what you've done wrong.

I am not taking anything personally, dawg. I just wrecked the previous idiot's arguments using rather simple logic, but if you want to come at me with your general platitudes, that's coo...

Back in my campaign, just got fucked by the game again. I ended the Noble war by destroying their big ass army, so peace settled upon the land. After a day or so, 99% of the settlements stopped being hostile to me (from the enemy noble house), so I was like, shiiiite, now I can travel around and trade and recruit dudes again. So I go to this citadel of the former enemy noble house, and get a mission to take out some orc base.

I go there and easily dispatch the orcs, when suddenly, right after that battle, I am immediately thrown into another battle against a large army of the formerly enemy noble house (an ambush). I guess those fucks still hated me... I take them out like a #2 after a cheap fast food restaurant, but now all the settlements of that noble house are hostile to me YET AGAIN. What a fucking bullshit move by the game... They start the ambush, and I gotta pay for it.

Roguelikes and roguelites are shite. All of them. Never play one again and you won't have to experience this garbage in your gaming life anymore.

 

[Darth Canoli]

And the moral of the story is:

- forest fights are bad, they've always been bad and the community is made up of retards who fail to point that out, which means they will always be bad.
- Swordmasters are also fucking bad. Check the spreedsheets, WORSE stats-for-the-gold ratio. Go Hedge Knight/Oathtaker/Anatomist or go for a cheap background.
- Sword duelists just need so many fucking stats, at that point ANYTHING would "work".

1- Forest fight "design" or the lack there of is of course terrible, no argument there.
2- I'd hire a good swordman (aka with the right perks) when I see one because at some point, money isn't an issue and having 2 good perks on a bro is worth more than gold.

3- Let's agree to disagree, the only reason not to use a duelist is because it's too strong, even with the base game because you'll flank the enemy and then destroy his archers, pikemen, sergeants faster than with any other unit.
It makes berserk teams even more lethal and fights even shorter.

With Legends, many other builds will shine, 2H swordman with kata and sanguinary/berserk is even more lethal and some low AP 2H cleavers, "super AOE pikes" or 2H Axes/maces for single tough opponents will eventually do better but it depends on the stats of the named weapons you'll roll.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Then I found out they were German.
I... I gave my shekels to ze Germans.
I gave them to ze fucking Germans.

If it makes you feel better, first head of the CIA was a former nazi, and he hired a hundred of former nazis for the CIA because they needed some agents speaking russian but not russians (for obvious reasons) and they couldn't find anyone else with the required set of skills.

 

[k0syak]

And the moral of the story is:

- forest fights are bad, they've always been bad and the community is made up of retards who fail to point that out, which means they will always be bad.
- Swordmasters are also fucking bad. Check the spreedsheets, WORSE stats-for-the-gold ratio. Go Hedge Knight/Oathtaker/Anatomist or go for a cheap background.
- Sword duelists just need so many fucking stats, at that point ANYTHING would "work".

1- Forest fight "design" or the lack there of is of course terrible, no argument there.
2- I'd hire a good swordman (aka with the right perks) when I see one because at some point, money isn't an issue and having 2 good perks on a bro is worth more than gold.

3- Let's agree to disagree, the only reason not to use a duelist is because it's too strong, even with the base game because you'll flank the enemy and then destroy his archers, pikemen, sergeants faster than with any other unit.
It makes berserk teams even more lethal and fights even shorter.

With Legends, many other builds will shine, 2H swordman with kata and sanguinary/berserk is even more lethal and some low AP 2H cleavers, "super AOE pikes" or 2H Axes/maces for single tough opponents will eventually do better but it depends on the stats of the named weapons you'll roll.

So what perks would you take on a sword duelist (or rather what are you giving up on)?

 

[BanEvader]

Then I found out they were German.
I... I gave my shekels to ze Germans.
I gave them to ze fucking Germans.

If it makes you feel better, first head of the CIA was a former nazi, and he hired a hundred of former nazis for the CIA because they needed some agents speaking russian but not russians (for obvious reasons) and they couldn't find anyone else with the required set of skills.

Why would that make me feel better?

 

[Brancaleone]

And the moral of the story is:

- forest fights are bad, they've always been bad and the community is made up of retards who fail to point that out, which means they will always be bad.
- Swordmasters are also fucking bad. Check the spreedsheets, WORSE stats-for-the-gold ratio. Go Hedge Knight/Oathtaker/Anatomist or go for a cheap background.
- Sword duelists just need so many fucking stats, at that point ANYTHING would "work".

1- Forest fight "design" or the lack there of is of course terrible, no argument there.
2- I'd hire a good swordman (aka with the right perks) when I see one because at some point, money isn't an issue and having 2 good perks on a bro is worth more than gold.

3- Let's agree to disagree, the only reason not to use a duelist is because it's too strong, even with the base game because you'll flank the enemy and then destroy his archers, pikemen, sergeants faster than with any other unit.
It makes berserk teams even more lethal and fights even shorter.

With Legends, many other builds will shine, 2H swordman with kata and sanguinary/berserk is even more lethal and some low AP 2H cleavers, "super AOE pikes" or 2H Axes/maces for single tough opponents will eventually do better but it depends on the stats of the named weapons you'll roll.

So what perks would you take on a sword duelist (or rather what are you giving up on)?

Just to be sure, are we talking about sword-duelists or fencing sword-duelists? It changes things quite a bit.

 

[Ninjerk]

Brancaleone vazha You guys realize that is what Porky does, right? This is who he is. He complains about sucking at games and then insults people that give him advice.

 

[k0syak]

And the moral of the story is:

- forest fights are bad, they've always been bad and the community is made up of retards who fail to point that out, which means they will always be bad.
- Swordmasters are also fucking bad. Check the spreedsheets, WORSE stats-for-the-gold ratio. Go Hedge Knight/Oathtaker/Anatomist or go for a cheap background.
- Sword duelists just need so many fucking stats, at that point ANYTHING would "work".

1- Forest fight "design" or the lack there of is of course terrible, no argument there.
2- I'd hire a good swordman (aka with the right perks) when I see one because at some point, money isn't an issue and having 2 good perks on a bro is worth more than gold.

3- Let's agree to disagree, the only reason not to use a duelist is because it's too strong, even with the base game because you'll flank the enemy and then destroy his archers, pikemen, sergeants faster than with any other unit.
It makes berserk teams even more lethal and fights even shorter.

With Legends, many other builds will shine, 2H swordman with kata and sanguinary/berserk is even more lethal and some low AP 2H cleavers, "super AOE pikes" or 2H Axes/maces for single tough opponents will eventually do better but it depends on the stats of the named weapons you'll roll.

So what perks would you take on a sword duelist (or rather what are you giving up on)?

Just to be sure, are we talking about sword-duelists or fencing sword-duelists? It changes things quite a bit.

I think, Darth Canoli 's post implies a fencer.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Brancaleone vazha You guys realize that is what Porky does, right? This is who he is. He complains about sucking at games and then insults people that give him advice.

Emotional damage detected... Show me where I complained about sucking at the game... I am actually doing pretty well, finished 2 crises on Ironman, despite the game throwing all kinds of shit at me. Seems like you misread the situation and put your 2 cents in, which are worthy of their creator.

 

[Ninjerk]

Like clockwork, after insulting you he brags about how well he's really doing once someone has pointed out his stupidity. Really guys! He's doing fine!

 

[Harthwain]

Protip: you can get an achievement for beating four late game crises on Ironman on beginner, because the only thing that matters is being on Ironman, not the difficulty of the campaign as such. Also, you don't have to beat four late game crises on the same run. You can still get the achievement if you have different playthroughs.

Just saying, if you ever want to get an achievement and brag about it.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Like clockwork, after insulting you he brags about how well he's really doing once someone has pointed out his stupidity. Really guys! He's doing fine!

The thing is, kiddo, doing well is not subjective. I am on day 320 of my campaign on Ironman, going stronk. And since I am playing for fun and not min/max or be a munchkin, there is literally nothing I could do to do better in this campaign.

Protip: you can get an achievement for beating four late game crises on Ironman on beginner, because the only thing that matters is being on Ironman, not the difficulty of the campaign as such. Also, you don't have to beat four late game crises on the same run. You can still get the achievement if you have different playthroughs.

Just saying, if you ever want to get an achievement and brag about it.

Seems pretty pathetic, I got that achievement years ago on Veteran/Veteran/Ironman for the first crisis.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

So my epic campaign continues with yet another grinder:

On day 320, took a contract to take out whatever terrorizes some backwoods village. Noticed the contract was 3 skulls and a ton of money, so I was like I probably shouldn't, but I mean come on...

24 Nachenburgers. Ok, I was hoping they would all be the junior type. No such luck, 5-6 top level fuckers, and another 6-7 mid-levels, and the rest are juniors.

I fucked up and instead of taking all footmen, which is my usual strategy against plethora of Nachos (works great to prevent them from encircling your backline if there is no backline ), took a backline of crossbowmen. This of course is not ideal against that many Nachos, as you can't let them encircle you, but if you attack them too fast, they just use that shit to feast on their own corpses. Which is what happened.

Next thing I know, the fat fuckers swallowed half my company (the fucking AI is pretty good at figuring out to swallow the best dudes too, swallowed my sergeant, and 2 knight like dudes, among others), and are constantly feasting themselves while I kill them. So by mid-battle, I am 110% sure I am getting wiped. Shit is getting desperate, crossbowmen are fighting with spears and shield (I realized I forgot to give one a shield as a backup, , he blocked with his ribs), bannerman is poking well fed Nachos with banner while 2 junior Nachos are sitting on his face, best dudes are digesting in Nacho stomachs, and I am already making plans to start next campaign.

But somehow, my little bros stuck with it, and slowly, Nacho by Nacho, they managed to claw their way back. It got funny toward the end, as they popped the fat Nachos, and dudes started coming back half-digested.

So, the final tally: the poor bannerman Guntbert died (even though I have a surgeon retinue, he already had 2 permanent injuries before, so this one did him in), but he was the only fatality. Another footman got the Traumatized permanent trait, so I had to retire him from company, and one of the crossbowmen got messed up lungs (-40% fatigue). I will keep him around while I train his replacement, but long term he's gotta go with 30 fatigue. Other than that, one dude got a missing nose (minor thing) and one dude got brain damage, so all in all, an epic victory.


The religious war started between North and South, but I am not getting involved until most of the settlements become non-hostile.