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Incline Battle Brothers + Beasts & Exploration, Warriors of the North and Blazing Deserts DLC Thread

Teut Busnet

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Messages
930
To read 374 pages of this thread or not to read... Perhaps I should just ask a potentially repeat question here, hmm...

Steam sale should be coming up soon, and I've been eyeing to pick up this game for a while now. Obviously, I've never played the game before, and the reason I'm thinking of getting it is because I get classic X-Com vibes from it.

Should I immediately buy the DLCs as well, and if so which ones?
If you like BB, you'll like it even more with DLC. If you don't like it, the DLCs probably won't sway you, though they do add a lot. If they're only reduced by 10% as in the last couple of sales, you could wait and just try the main game.

I would rate them:
  • 'Beasts & Exploration' 3,5 / 5 (adds crafting and some creatures)
  • 'Warriors of the North' 5 / 5 (adds the northern barbarian faction and most of the 'Origins')
  • 'Blazing Deserts' 4,5 / 5 (adds the southern deserts, the arab inspired faction and a couple more origins)
  • ('Lindwurm' and 'Of Flesh and Faith' are smaller in scale, but free anyway)
All of them are worth it and also bring 'minor' stuff like different weapons, banners etc.
 
Last edited:

axx

Savant
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Messages
518
Is Warriors of North really that good? From what I heard the northern mobs are super tough and their loot is crap.
 

Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Messages
5,280
Location
Perched on a tree
To read 374 pages of this thread or not to read... Perhaps I should just ask a potentially repeat question here, hmm...

Steam sale should be coming up soon, and I've been eyeing to pick up this game for a while now. Obviously, I've never played the game before, and the reason I'm thinking of getting it is because I get classic X-Com vibes from it.

Should I immediately buy the DLCs as well, and if so which ones?
If you like the BB, you'll like it even more with DLC. If you don't like it, the DLCs probably won't sway you, though they do add a lot. If they're only reduced by 10% as in the last couple of sales, you could wait and just try the main game.

I would rate them:
  • 'Beasts & Exploration' 3,5 / 5 (adds crafting and some creatures)
  • 'Warriors of the North' 5 / 5 (adds the northern barbarian faction and most of the 'Origins')
  • 'Blazing Deserts' 4,5 / 5 (adds the southern deserts, the arab inspired faction and a couple more origins)
  • ('Lindwurm' and 'Of Flesh and Faith' are smaller in scale, but free anyway)
All of them are worth it and also bring 'minor' stuff like different weapons, banners etc.

It's a matter of taste, I agree about the DLC except if you only want to buy 2, because of your budget, I'd only buy the first two.
My ratings would be Beasts & Explo 3.8, WotN 4, B. Desert 3.4.

Southern cities appeal is the Arena first and trading goods second, snakes and a couple of legendary locations but ifrits are a pain and southern armies are nothing special.
And I don't like southern equipment either (good scimitars with legends though).

If you want to play with the legends mod on a second playthrough (and you want to if you like the game), it requires ALL the DLC.

So, maybe try the base game for a short run and if you like it, buy all the DLC.


Is Warriors of North really that good? From what I heard the northern mobs are super tough and their loot is crap.

axx
Yes, tough monsters is what you need, why would you play Battle Brothers otherwise?
Same remark as earlier, it's a requirement for the Legends mod...
 

Teut Busnet

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Messages
930
Is Warriors of North really that good? From what I heard the northern mobs are super tough and their loot is crap.
The introduction of 'Origins' really brought some welcome variety, it's the best addition made to BB. The Barbarians being tough is not necessarily negative and some of their gear is fine as well - just like with regular bandits.

Adding 'Champions' and two 'mid-game' legendary locations was also nice.
 

Brancaleone

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Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
881
Location
Norcia
Is Warriors of North really that good? From what I heard the northern mobs are super tough and their loot is crap.
Reavers can carry devastating tier-3 throwing weapons, barbarian iron melee weapons are really good against armour (useful against orc warriors/warlords, since you cannot loot their armour).
Northern armour is on average fatigue-inefficient, not worth farming.
To compensate (I guess), even the smallest groups (I mean also wandering bands, not just location/camps) of barbarians have a good chance of leaving behind figurines/bead necklaces, which sell for 200/250 each (and you can get even 3-4 from a single battle).
Plus quite a bit of medicinal supplies.
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
279
To read 374 pages of this thread or not to read... Perhaps I should just ask a potentially repeat question here, hmm...

Steam sale should be coming up soon, and I've been eyeing to pick up this game for a while now. Obviously, I've never played the game before, and the reason I'm thinking of getting it is because I get classic X-Com vibes from it.

Should I immediately buy the DLCs as well, and if so which ones?
Cards on table for me - BB's a modern classic. Just great fun and a rare example of a proc-gen title done right. I've played it intermittently since the EA and will do so for many years to come, especially with Legends' development progressing apace.

I'd echo other posters above. Try the base game first then get the DLCs you like it. You'll easily get your money's worth if they're on sale.
 

k0syak

Arbiter
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
369
The game is at a point where its never been easier to build a viable bro, especially with the new toys the DLCs gave us.
Absolutely, the game is now full of 'pay to win' options (i.e. consumables) or alternatives that have no trade-off or drawbacks, or things that eliminate even the 5% failure chance (which, in a game that is all about risk-management, is a BIG deal).

Nets are sure-hit, dirty cheap, and trivialize high-defense enemies. Grenades are expensive, but also have a 100% chance to work. A 110 MAtk Swordmaster has more chance of failure against a 1hp, stunned, dazed, netted, fleeing goblin than a primitive concoction (which will infallibly work).
Throwing weapons trivialize the lack of ranged skill: at range 2, the difference between a bow quick shot and a throwing weapon is a staggering 24 (a bow has -4% per tile), i.e. six levels' worth of max rolls. At range 2 your 40 RAtk thrower will hit like a 64 RAtk bowman. Then if you want you get an absurd amount of damage increase with mastery, and a 25% to ignore armour with duelist. Only drawback is ammo cost/capacity (which are also a factor for bows, albeit less so), i.e., another 'pay to win' (so to speak) option.
Taunt and whips trivialize non-beast scary enemies. At the very least whips should check against MAtk, not MDef: the way it is, your 45 MAtk, 40 MDef Peddler has like 95% less chance to drop his weapon than an Orc Warlord.
Quick Hands trivializes positioning: why should I wreck my brain in order to position the most appropriate bro to face the most appropriate enemy, when I can have a Swiss Army knife (with even the option of ridiculous Billhook-Two Handed Cleaver combos in the same turn, for free)?
Dodge completely trivializes what is by far the most difficult part of the game, i.e. switching from Raider gear to next tier armour. It also works 100% of the time (I played like a moron and got myself stunned, dazed, netted, goblin-poisoned, panicked, exhausted, etc. etc.? No problem, still works like a charm!), and always at 100% effectiveness (while Battle Forge works increasingly less as soon as your armour gets degraded). It also has no drawbacks/trade-offs whatsoever (no fatigue penalty, no huge expenses in order to acquire good or great armour, or dealing with the chance of it not being available). I can afford even more sloppy play, because my risk to get wounded plummets. It also removes a strategical element: you need tools, a lot of, and money, to repair heavy armour, while hp regeneration is quick, free, and always available.

So while I wholeheartedly agree that it's never been easier to build viable bros, perhaps calling it flexible is slightly misleading: now there are quite a few of high reward-no drawback options that give dumb plays a huge pass (nimble, throwing weapons, consumables, etc.), plus a few extremely expensive and much more difficult to implement options that are relegated to niche cases or that give you a bit of extra edge in some selected end-game fights.
Forge has certainly lost a step compared to Nimble (I assume you mean Nimble when you use Dodge above). A good buff for BF would be to reinstate the old damage reduction calculation i.e. reduction is 5% of maximum total armor value rather than current total armor value. Would make the investment a bit more worthwhile and consistent. I don't think you could realistically revert to old Nimble with the way the game is now, too much enemy AiD floating around with the DLCs.

The Greatsword could use a little buff up too, nerfed as it has been into a pitiful state. The AiD and armor damage are now too low to make the flexibility worth it AND it is handily outperformed in specific roles by the other tier three 2-handers or polearms; all of which happen to be cheaper than the GS. Very sad. Fond memories of running an all GS AoE massacre frontline.
To be honest, I don't even see it as an issue of balance. [edit: I personally like BF the way it is: it forces you to keep track of your armour degradation, i.e., it adds a further factor to take into account]

Nimble is a really clumsy attempt to make light armour relevant in later game (why not medium armour then?). Conceptually, it's ridiculous: at the cost of one perk, you have a magical, infinite, eternal, permanent, always active, non dispellable super-stoneskin. You keep twisting your body just the right amount to get only 40% of the damage even if you are stunned, rooted, netted, exhausted, panicked, etc. etc. A two-handed mace strikes you down? No prob, in those two turns you are prone (and possibly surrounded) you will still be wiggling your ass just fine in order to dodge (but not quite) blows. It only checks armour and helmet fatigue: you can go around in raider gear, with an sead splitter in you right hand, an orc metal shield in your left, and four mansplitters strapped to your back, and you'll still be just as nimble as if you were naked, while at the same time not being able to even move a step because you are already fatigued out from turn 1 if you have less than 128 base fatigue.

Mechanically, in a game that is mostly about gear, it's an absolute disaster. BF works better if you have better armour: more expensive, more difficult to find, riskier to acquire. That is fine. Nimble works better if you have worse armour: cheaper, easier to find , less risky to acquire. Should I select one perk and be fine with raider gear until the endgame, or select one perk (actually two, since you typically also need Brawny) and spend an enourmous amount of money, time and take huge risks in order to acquire heavy armour in order to make decent use of that perk? It greatly diminishes risk-management: you will never -ever- again take full damage, no matter the situation, only 40%. With BF, at least you have to take care of your armour: you lose it, you get full damage.

Then, subjectively speaking: to me the best thing of Battle Brothers is the nail-biting whenever I have to make a hard choice or I didn't take some factor into account and now my mercenary is in a risky situation. With nimble, it's a snoozefest. Chain-berserker who can one-shot my 110hp, 300/300 armour battleforged bro? With nimble, it will take three shots at the very least. Armour piercing weapons? Nimble, and stop worrying. Chosen? Nimble! Lindwurm? Nimble-tank! Schrats? Nimble! Ifrits? Nimble! And so on, and so on. Oh, but Nimble is weak(er) against cleavers and poison. Well, poison doesn't one shot you, and neither does bleeding: even late game, it's mostly about the 5% hit that can one-shot a brother, not about the "I played like an ass for 5 consecutive turns, and my bro now has six bleeding stacks, and nobody in my company has bandages, nimble is weak against cleavers!" Similarly, having eaten 30 goblin arrows means you had oh-so-many opportunities to correct the situation.

As I would like it: since light armour already has its own reward, which is a truckload of extra farigue and initiative, give the player extra ways to make (better) use of that fatigue/initiative. From the top of my head, it could be anything among:
[As a premise: make Nimble dependent on total equipment fatigue, make Quick Hands cost 1 AP but make it reduce throwing nets/bombs to 3 AP]
- the less equipment fatigue, the more chance to re-roll a hit (similar to the Lucky trait, but better).
- Dodge is increasingly less dependent on current initiative, depending on how light your equipment is.
- Rotate and Footwork have heavily reduced farigue/Ap cost, depending on how light your equipment is.
- Quick Hands has 0 AP cost.
- Nine Lives gives increased bonus when activated, and for more turns
- Anticipation grants also some damage reduction proportional to the lightness of your equipment and to the distance (the only case where the 'twisting your body' thing would make a modicum of sense).
[edit] - a successful attempt to get rid of nets/roots costs you 1 AP, one quarter of the fatigue; an unsuccessful one 4 AP, half fatigue (after all, you are nimble: you slip from under the net, don't necessarily have to break it)
[edit] - some chance to shrug off the stunned/dazed effect, proportional to how light your equipment is

And so on, I'm sure there are much more talented people than me could devise much more interesting options. The point is, Nimble if based on things like these would make things MORE interesting: wouldn't you take some additional risks with wearing light armour if it allowed you to get to the enemy line, disengage twice with Footwork for a reasonable fatigue/AP cost and then get to that Arbalester/Necromancer/Shaman/Hexe/etc.? With all the risk that ending up deep into the enemy lines would entail, of course.
Instead, we got brain-dead perma-stoneskin, the epitome of the Sawyeristic approach to balance.

And before some genius has the epiphany of a lifetime and tells me "if you don't like Nimble, don't take it, duh!", that's exactly what I do: I play with no Nimble, no Taunt, no Quick Hands, no Whips, no Throwing Weapons, no reserve (only 12 men, everybody fights, and I include at the very least one monk and one historian in every run). But it's still a huge missed opportunity.

(80hp 300/300 Forge bro using AFP attachment)

2H Spike Mace (Chosen):
  • Normal: Death in 3.8 hits. 6.4% Death in 2. 16% chance of hitting heavy injury threshold in 1.
  • Brow: Death in 4.11 hits. 8.2% Death in 3. 6% chance of hitting heavy injury threshold in 2.

Berserk Chain (Berserker):
  • Normal: Death in 2.64 hits. 14.6% Death in 1! 36% of hitting heavy injury threshold in 1.
  • Brow: Death in 3.24 hits. 16.4% Death in 2. 18% of hitting heavy injury threshold in 1.

Been taking brow instead of brawny lately, easier to play around lower fatigue than getting 1-shotted :)
 

Brancaleone

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
881
Location
Norcia
The game is at a point where its never been easier to build a viable bro, especially with the new toys the DLCs gave us.
Absolutely, the game is now full of 'pay to win' options (i.e. consumables) or alternatives that have no trade-off or drawbacks, or things that eliminate even the 5% failure chance (which, in a game that is all about risk-management, is a BIG deal).

Nets are sure-hit, dirty cheap, and trivialize high-defense enemies. Grenades are expensive, but also have a 100% chance to work. A 110 MAtk Swordmaster has more chance of failure against a 1hp, stunned, dazed, netted, fleeing goblin than a primitive concoction (which will infallibly work).
Throwing weapons trivialize the lack of ranged skill: at range 2, the difference between a bow quick shot and a throwing weapon is a staggering 24 (a bow has -4% per tile), i.e. six levels' worth of max rolls. At range 2 your 40 RAtk thrower will hit like a 64 RAtk bowman. Then if you want you get an absurd amount of damage increase with mastery, and a 25% to ignore armour with duelist. Only drawback is ammo cost/capacity (which are also a factor for bows, albeit less so), i.e., another 'pay to win' (so to speak) option.
Taunt and whips trivialize non-beast scary enemies. At the very least whips should check against MAtk, not MDef: the way it is, your 45 MAtk, 40 MDef Peddler has like 95% less chance to drop his weapon than an Orc Warlord.
Quick Hands trivializes positioning: why should I wreck my brain in order to position the most appropriate bro to face the most appropriate enemy, when I can have a Swiss Army knife (with even the option of ridiculous Billhook-Two Handed Cleaver combos in the same turn, for free)?
Dodge completely trivializes what is by far the most difficult part of the game, i.e. switching from Raider gear to next tier armour. It also works 100% of the time (I played like a moron and got myself stunned, dazed, netted, goblin-poisoned, panicked, exhausted, etc. etc.? No problem, still works like a charm!), and always at 100% effectiveness (while Battle Forge works increasingly less as soon as your armour gets degraded). It also has no drawbacks/trade-offs whatsoever (no fatigue penalty, no huge expenses in order to acquire good or great armour, or dealing with the chance of it not being available). I can afford even more sloppy play, because my risk to get wounded plummets. It also removes a strategical element: you need tools, a lot of, and money, to repair heavy armour, while hp regeneration is quick, free, and always available.

So while I wholeheartedly agree that it's never been easier to build viable bros, perhaps calling it flexible is slightly misleading: now there are quite a few of high reward-no drawback options that give dumb plays a huge pass (nimble, throwing weapons, consumables, etc.), plus a few extremely expensive and much more difficult to implement options that are relegated to niche cases or that give you a bit of extra edge in some selected end-game fights.
Forge has certainly lost a step compared to Nimble (I assume you mean Nimble when you use Dodge above). A good buff for BF would be to reinstate the old damage reduction calculation i.e. reduction is 5% of maximum total armor value rather than current total armor value. Would make the investment a bit more worthwhile and consistent. I don't think you could realistically revert to old Nimble with the way the game is now, too much enemy AiD floating around with the DLCs.

The Greatsword could use a little buff up too, nerfed as it has been into a pitiful state. The AiD and armor damage are now too low to make the flexibility worth it AND it is handily outperformed in specific roles by the other tier three 2-handers or polearms; all of which happen to be cheaper than the GS. Very sad. Fond memories of running an all GS AoE massacre frontline.
To be honest, I don't even see it as an issue of balance. [edit: I personally like BF the way it is: it forces you to keep track of your armour degradation, i.e., it adds a further factor to take into account]

Nimble is a really clumsy attempt to make light armour relevant in later game (why not medium armour then?). Conceptually, it's ridiculous: at the cost of one perk, you have a magical, infinite, eternal, permanent, always active, non dispellable super-stoneskin. You keep twisting your body just the right amount to get only 40% of the damage even if you are stunned, rooted, netted, exhausted, panicked, etc. etc. A two-handed mace strikes you down? No prob, in those two turns you are prone (and possibly surrounded) you will still be wiggling your ass just fine in order to dodge (but not quite) blows. It only checks armour and helmet fatigue: you can go around in raider gear, with an sead splitter in you right hand, an orc metal shield in your left, and four mansplitters strapped to your back, and you'll still be just as nimble as if you were naked, while at the same time not being able to even move a step because you are already fatigued out from turn 1 if you have less than 128 base fatigue.

Mechanically, in a game that is mostly about gear, it's an absolute disaster. BF works better if you have better armour: more expensive, more difficult to find, riskier to acquire. That is fine. Nimble works better if you have worse armour: cheaper, easier to find , less risky to acquire. Should I select one perk and be fine with raider gear until the endgame, or select one perk (actually two, since you typically also need Brawny) and spend an enourmous amount of money, time and take huge risks in order to acquire heavy armour in order to make decent use of that perk? It greatly diminishes risk-management: you will never -ever- again take full damage, no matter the situation, only 40%. With BF, at least you have to take care of your armour: you lose it, you get full damage.

Then, subjectively speaking: to me the best thing of Battle Brothers is the nail-biting whenever I have to make a hard choice or I didn't take some factor into account and now my mercenary is in a risky situation. With nimble, it's a snoozefest. Chain-berserker who can one-shot my 110hp, 300/300 armour battleforged bro? With nimble, it will take three shots at the very least. Armour piercing weapons? Nimble, and stop worrying. Chosen? Nimble! Lindwurm? Nimble-tank! Schrats? Nimble! Ifrits? Nimble! And so on, and so on. Oh, but Nimble is weak(er) against cleavers and poison. Well, poison doesn't one shot you, and neither does bleeding: even late game, it's mostly about the 5% hit that can one-shot a brother, not about the "I played like an ass for 5 consecutive turns, and my bro now has six bleeding stacks, and nobody in my company has bandages, nimble is weak against cleavers!" Similarly, having eaten 30 goblin arrows means you had oh-so-many opportunities to correct the situation.

As I would like it: since light armour already has its own reward, which is a truckload of extra farigue and initiative, give the player extra ways to make (better) use of that fatigue/initiative. From the top of my head, it could be anything among:
[As a premise: make Nimble dependent on total equipment fatigue, make Quick Hands cost 1 AP but make it reduce throwing nets/bombs to 3 AP]
- the less equipment fatigue, the more chance to re-roll a hit (similar to the Lucky trait, but better).
- Dodge is increasingly less dependent on current initiative, depending on how light your equipment is.
- Rotate and Footwork have heavily reduced farigue/Ap cost, depending on how light your equipment is.
- Quick Hands has 0 AP cost.
- Nine Lives gives increased bonus when activated, and for more turns
- Anticipation grants also some damage reduction proportional to the lightness of your equipment and to the distance (the only case where the 'twisting your body' thing would make a modicum of sense).
[edit] - a successful attempt to get rid of nets/roots costs you 1 AP, one quarter of the fatigue; an unsuccessful one 4 AP, half fatigue (after all, you are nimble: you slip from under the net, don't necessarily have to break it)
[edit] - some chance to shrug off the stunned/dazed effect, proportional to how light your equipment is

And so on, I'm sure there are much more talented people than me could devise much more interesting options. The point is, Nimble if based on things like these would make things MORE interesting: wouldn't you take some additional risks with wearing light armour if it allowed you to get to the enemy line, disengage twice with Footwork for a reasonable fatigue/AP cost and then get to that Arbalester/Necromancer/Shaman/Hexe/etc.? With all the risk that ending up deep into the enemy lines would entail, of course.
Instead, we got brain-dead perma-stoneskin, the epitome of the Sawyeristic approach to balance.

And before some genius has the epiphany of a lifetime and tells me "if you don't like Nimble, don't take it, duh!", that's exactly what I do: I play with no Nimble, no Taunt, no Quick Hands, no Whips, no Throwing Weapons, no reserve (only 12 men, everybody fights, and I include at the very least one monk and one historian in every run). But it's still a huge missed opportunity.

(80hp 300/300 Forge bro using AFP attachment)

2H Spike Mace (Chosen):
  • Normal: Death in 3.8 hits. 6.4% Death in 2. 16% chance of hitting heavy injury threshold in 1.
  • Brow: Death in 4.11 hits. 8.2% Death in 3. 6% chance of hitting heavy injury threshold in 2.

Berserk Chain (Berserker):
  • Normal: Death in 2.64 hits. 14.6% Death in 1! 36% of hitting heavy injury threshold in 1.
  • Brow: Death in 3.24 hits. 16.4% Death in 2. 18% of hitting heavy injury threshold in 1.

Been taking brow instead of brawny lately, easier to play around lower fatigue than getting 1-shotted :)
Yeah, and that's with -34% armour ignore damage from the Additional Fur Padding!

We are talking a (at least) level 7 BF bro with an around 15,000 gold armour/helmet investment (or the equivalent risks taken in daggering Hedge Knights or similar, plus the issue of actually finding that level of armour/Hedge Knights to fight, plus the constant repairs), plus having killed on average 3 Frost Unholds for the chance of getting the fur.

Meanwhile our level 7 Nimble with his 7-800 gold investment/daggering down some crappy Lower Raider would just waltz through the first hits.

Pretty insane overall.
 
Last edited:

k0syak

Arbiter
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
369
Yeah, early-mid nimble is kang, not much sense going BF unless you chance upon a good famed armor.
 

Brancaleone

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Apr 28, 2015
Messages
881
Location
Norcia
Yeah, early-mid nimble is kang, not much sense going BF unless you chance upon a good famed armor.
And it's not like late-game BF is superior, especially if you chance upon a good famed light armor for your Nimblebro.

BF ends up being slightly better only in very selected cases, which on top of that are the kind of cases where you get 'death from a thousand cuts', i.e., where you are not at the RNG's mercy because you have so much time to rectify the situation (goblin arrows, webknechts, hyenas, etc.). For which you need a horrendous investment in terms of gold/time/risks, and quite a lot of babysitting until you get the right gear. While Nimble needs almost no investment, and no baby-sitting at all.

It boils down to a simple question: if I'm facing one of the top-dangerous foes, do I feel safer with a Nimble-tank or with a BF-tank? Chosen, Schrat, Berserker, Warlord, Lindwurm, Unhold, Assassin, Blade-Dancer, Arbalester, Overseer, Fallen Hero, etc. etc.

To be honest, apart from the version armed with a cleaver, I find it hard to mention when you'd be safer with a BF-tank (maybe I'm missing some).

I might just be coincidence, but the (admittedly few) times I went and watched some high-level player on youtube, it always ended up with like 10 Nimblebro plus a couple of BF just in case you need someone to throw at goblin arrows or at cleaver enemies.
 
Last edited:

Eyestabber

Arcane
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Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
4,545
Location
HUEland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Have you considered just modding out the 5-95 dice cap? I know it's to simulate a critical failure or lucky break but it always feels like being punished for playing well.
YES, but this:

https://www.nexusmods.com/battlebrothers/mods/26/?tab=posts

Doesn't work anymore and I couldn't find a replacement so far. If anyone can get a dice cap removal mod working, I'll make him a millionaire.
In brofists

And before some genius has the epiphany of a lifetime and tells me "if you don't like Nimble, don't take it, duh!", that's exactly what I do: I play with no Nimble, no Taunt, no Quick Hands, no Whips, no Throwing Weapons, no reserve (only 12 men, everybody fights, and I include at the very least one monk and one historian in every run). But it's still a huge missed opportunity.
Almost a perfect summary of the current BB "meta", you just forgot 2H cleavers. The big Scimitar you get in the south is so fucking busted it's hilarious. My current company (lone wolf start, found an amazing seed googling: VczRNDxEaz) just cut through all the content quite easily. Another "offender" I would point out is the Billhook. Easily the best all-arounder in the game, can be wielded by utterly mediocre bros, very light on the fatigue, two tile range and polearm mastery is a game changer, unlike most specs that straight up suck. My initial company had like 8 nimble bros, but I fazed them out as they died. In the very late game Forge is still better, but Nimble is absurd due to how cost-efficient it became. Quick hands is also a contender for best perk in the game, due to the swiss army knife approach being so effective.

I'm using a mod that adds medium armor spec, but tbh it's not particularly interesting, it just adds a new breakpoint at -37. Also, the two new backgrounds added in the latest update are a nice step forward. Both backgrounds provide characters that are guaranteed to not suck too hard.
 

Brancaleone

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
881
Location
Norcia
Have you considered just modding out the 5-95 dice cap? I know it's to simulate a critical failure or lucky break but it always feels like being punished for playing well.
YES, but this:

https://www.nexusmods.com/battlebrothers/mods/26/?tab=posts

Doesn't work anymore and I couldn't find a replacement so far. If anyone can get a dice cap removal mod working, I'll make him a millionaire.
In brofists

And before some genius has the epiphany of a lifetime and tells me "if you don't like Nimble, don't take it, duh!", that's exactly what I do: I play with no Nimble, no Taunt, no Quick Hands, no Whips, no Throwing Weapons, no reserve (only 12 men, everybody fights, and I include at the very least one monk and one historian in every run). But it's still a huge missed opportunity.
Almost a perfect summary of the current BB "meta", you just forgot 2H cleavers. The big Scimitar you get in the south is so fucking busted it's hilarious. My current company (lone wolf start, found an amazing seed googling: VczRNDxEaz) just cut through all the content quite easily. Another "offender" I would point out is the Billhook. Easily the best all-arounder in the game, can be wielded by utterly mediocre bros, very light on the fatigue, two tile range and polearm mastery is a game changer, unlike most specs that straight up suck. My initial company had like 8 nimble bros, but I fazed them out as they died. In the very late game Forge is still better, but Nimble is absurd due to how cost-efficient it became. Quick hands is also a contender for best perk in the game, due to the swiss army knife approach being so effective.

I'm using a mod that adds medium armor spec, but tbh it's not particularly interesting, it just adds a new breakpoint at -37. Also, the two new backgrounds added in the latest update are a nice step forward. Both backgrounds provide characters that are guaranteed to not suck too hard.
At least the Two Handed Scimitar is relatively hard to get, sometimes you can find a 40% durability Billhook for something like 600 gold in a castle (i.e., day one purchase). I think I mentioned the 2H Cleaver-Billhook combo with Quickhands in some other post.

P.S. About the risk/rewards ratio you had mentioned somewhere else: yes, it is all over the place. This, together with the weird way the game scales difficulty incentivizes either playing super-conservately by taking no risks whatsoever (i.e. super-boring) and possibly gaming the system in order to delay the first crisis, or taking big risks at the beginning in order to stay far ahead of the curve (i.e. getting armour/weapons much earlier than you 'are supposed' to get them), which snowballs pretty quicky and makes the rest of the game rather bland. If you play taking, so to speak, 'reasonable' risks (which is I guess is the path that most people take in RPG until they know the game inside-out), you tend to get the worst of both worlds.
 

Strange Fellow

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I'm back to playing Battle Brothers, AGAIN. I never really gave the Blazing Sands DLC a proper go, so it's fun to explore some of the new stuff. However, after several hundred hours with the game, I'm not sure I've gotten any better at it at all. Still stuck on that same treadmill of lose a couple of bros in a tough fight -> get a bunch of recruits to replace them/spend a lot on repair and healing materials -> strapped for cash -> no money/bros for actual progress.

One thing I have learned, though, is that alps are now fun. Only took them three reworks to figure it out.
 

Old One

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Is legends mod good? Or does it destroy the tone of the game?

It's good, mostly. There's some stuff in there I personally don't care for, but you can turn most of it off and just use what you like.

The convenience changes and the control you get over mapgen make it hard to go back to vanilla once you've gotten into Legends.

I don't think it damages the tone.
 

k0syak

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I'm back to playing Battle Brothers, AGAIN. I never really gave the Blazing Sands DLC a proper go, so it's fun to explore some of the new stuff. However, after several hundred hours with the game, I'm not sure I've gotten any better at it at all. Still stuck on that same treadmill of lose a couple of bros in a tough fight -> get a bunch of recruits to replace them/spend a lot on repair and healing materials -> strapped for cash -> no money/bros for actual progress.

One thing I have learned, though, is that alps are now fun. Only took them three reworks to figure it out.
Have you adopted to the new meta? I haven't played since B&E, jumped in again with the latest DLC and it took some time to figure out what's good. If you're having problems early on, spam adrenaline on everyone, makes the thug/early raider fights a breeze.
 

Eyestabber

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am9wlJl.png


0,23% chance, but hey, why not?

Yep, it's official: I despise RNG. Fuck RNGesus and all his retarded acolytes. Do you know how many times I played the lottery in 34 years in this earth? Zero. I never bothered to learn Poker. I wrote a long rant in the Path of Exile thread about how its crafting system is nothing but a poorly disguised gambling scheme. Idiots still insist "nuh uh, you just have to know shit". No, you don't. It's lolrandom. No luck, no item. Gambling is one of those things normies do but I could never really get it. I got a chuckle reading redditard comments defending the 5% cap "well, but removing that would make the game standardized and predictable, it would be like chess!!!". YES, MOTHERFUCKER, IT FUCKING WOULD. In what fucking parallel universe is "more like chess" a bad thing? Chess is the perfect game, the better player winning every single time is the desirable scenario. But hey, why don't we make Chess: Zoomer Edition™ and add a coinflip whenever you would take an opponent's piece? YAY!!! MORE FUN!!!! Now any retard has a shot at defeating a Grandmaster, because the right move no longer matters if the coin doesn't go your way. YAY, so inclusive, such balance! Fun for the whole inbred family!

For the record, I won that arena fight. I ragequitted shortly afterwards, when I ran into a couple hyenas. At that point they would be no threat at all EXCEPT on turn 2 I only got 2 hits out of 12 bros, all with over 50% chance. Ofc, it was a tank with a flail that got the hit. Every single 2H damage dealer missed. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. I end turn and the first hyena hits a 33% thrice. I didn't bother finishing turn 3, I just alt + f4 and came here to vent. I probably would've won that fight, but what matters is the principle. RNG needs to be kept on a tight leash or not used at all. I read Legends has lolrandom perk selection, HOLY SHIT YOU HAVE TO BE SPECIAL KIND OF RETARD to enjoy that. Bear in mind character progression is already LOLRANDOM in this game adding another layer of randomness means there is no point in planning a build.

OH, BY THE WAY, in every single D&D session I ever DM'ed I always imposed average hitpoints per level and pointbuy character creation. As a player I always felt like there was no point in playing a 13 STR fighter and when that happened my solution to the problem was to intentionally make bad decisions in order to get my character killed ASAP. RNGesus should be banished from character creation and progression, the mere suggestion that a thief might have more HP than the fighter at Lvl 3 simply because LOLRANDOM, MUH LUCK is utterly repugnant and I understood it was my job as DM to never allow it to happen. Players making better characters than other players was perfectly fine by me, never felt the need to teach anyone a lesson like some preschool teacher. Sometimes I would even join the bullying. The weak should fear the strong.

THE POINT IS I want to sacrifice to Davkul whoever thought having such insane variance in combat was somehow good. Add grazes, revise certain cases of armorpen, unbloat the stats of most monsters, REMOVE THE GODDAMN 5% TROLLING CAP THAT I'M STILL TRYING TO REMOVE, improve the algorithm for generating named items (some mods work, but they lean towards making items OP), STARDARDIZE THE FUCKING BACKGROUNDS like it used to be back in EA. Anyone remember? Farmhands had +10 HP, Millers had like +10 fatigue. Traits are more than enough to differentiate brothers, you don't need a roll for every attribute, a roll for stars, a roll for traits AND make it all hidden from the player.

Lastly, I wanna share with you guys a trick I learned while playing cultists:

YtvDv0K.png


Proper naming of your bros makes all the difference.
 
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Harthwain

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Chess is the perfect game, the better player winning every single time is the desirable scenario. But hey, why don't we make Chess: Zoomer Edition™ and add a coinflip whenever you would take an opponent's piece? YAY!!! MORE FUN!!!! Now any retard has a shot at defeating a Grandmaster, because the right move no longer matters if the coin doesn't go your way. YAY, so inclusive, such balance! Fun for the whole inbred family!
You need some variables to keep the game interesting, otherwise it's too predictable. That's why I'd recommend A Game of Thrones: The Board Game instead. It has some random and hidden elements, but the majority of the in-game mechanics are predictable enough to enable players to make plans with very high degree of reliability.
 

Brancaleone

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Gambling is one of those things normies do but I could never really get it. I got a chuckle reading redditard comments defending the 5% cap "well, but removing that would make the game standardized and predictable, it would be like chess!!!". YES, MOTHERFUCKER, IT FUCKING WOULD. In what fucking parallel universe is "more like chess" a bad thing? Chess is the perfect game, the better player winning every single time is the desirable scenario. But hey, why don't we make Chess: Zoomer Edition™ and add a coinflip whenever you would take an opponent's piece? YAY!!! MORE FUN!!!! Now any retard has a shot at defeating a Grandmaster, because the right move no longer matters if the coin doesn't go your way. YAY, so inclusive, such balance! Fun for the whole inbred family!
Because otherwise in order to make the game challenging you would need a really good AI (which on top of that would be infinitely more difficult to code than chess AI), and that takes a lot of effort and time. And actually Battle Brothers' AI is not very good: its main trick is that it has a certain chance (I think around 30%) [edit: a weighted chance] of choosing randomly between its options, which means some times it will be self-defeating, other times neutral, and some times it will do something tha catches you by surprise. But since we expect AI to be dumb, we tend to remember selectively mostly the times it appeared 'smart' when acting randomly.
 
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Harthwain

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And actually Battle Brothers' AI is not very good: its main trick is that it has a certain chance (I think around 30%) of choosing randomly between its options [...]
Actually, the chance of performing an action is skewed depending on circumstances:

Dev Blog #27: AI in Battle Brothers, Part 1

[...] Every behavior in the pool could be picked, but the higher the utility, the more likely it is to be picked. Think of throwing a dart on the pie chart below; it’s most likely to hit the Split Shield part, but you could hit any of the other two as well.

ai_diagram_1.png

This way, we always have an element of unpredictability in how the AI behaves. The AI won’t always do the same in every situation, and it can on occasion surprise you. But it will attempt to do what are the most sensible things to do in the very specific situation it is in.
 

Brancaleone

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And actually Battle Brothers' AI is not very good: its main trick is that it has a certain chance (I think around 30%) of choosing randomly between its options [...]
Actually, the chance of performing an action is skewed depending on circumstances:

Dev Blog #27: AI in Battle Brothers, Part 1

[...] Every behavior in the pool could be picked, but the higher the utility, the more likely it is to be picked. Think of throwing a dart on the pie chart below; it’s most likely to hit the Split Shield part, but you could hit any of the other two as well.

ai_diagram_1.png


This way, we always have an element of unpredictability in how the AI behaves. The AI won’t always do the same in every situation, and it can on occasion surprise you. But it will attempt to do what are the most sensible things to do in the very specific situation it is in.
Yes, but it still has a random chance to pick the least useful option: "Then, we pick one by weighted random" (in the part of the Dev Blog post that is not included in the quote). For example, you can see it when it does one split shield against your shieldwall when it would need two, but then instead of doing the second split it simply attacks for very low chances. Or when the AI moves a few tiles, and then moves back: it's not a pathfinder issue (although Battle Brothers' AI has huge pathfinder issues), but the result of randomly picking the least useful option, and then the most useful one (in order to restore the proper positioning) in the resulting scenario as a second move.

I corrected my previous post about the chance of picking the least useful option, I though I remembered it was a fixed chance.
 
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Harthwain

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Yes, but it still has a random chance to pick the least useful option: "Then, we pick one by weighted random" (in the part of the Dev Blog post that is not included in the quote).
Sure, I never said otherwise. I simply wanted to bring attention to the fact that the chance of picking an action is based on the utility the action in question (and that's dictated by the circumstances), not that there is no randomness involved.
 

Brancaleone

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Yes, but it still has a random chance to pick the least useful option: "Then, we pick one by weighted random" (in the part of the Dev Blog post that is not included in the quote).
Sure, I never said otherwise. I simply wanted to bring attention to the fact that the chance of picking an action is based on the utility the action in question (and that's dictated by the circumstances), not that there is no randomness involved.
Yeah, I remembered the utility-based part (a user had brought the devpost to my attention quite some time ago in this thread, I had no idea it worked this way). For some reason I remembered it as 'AI choses according to utility, but it has a fixed chance to chose randomly'. My main point was that what looks like a 'genius move' by the AI is simply the (occasional) result of said randomness, which results much more often in dumb moves than in 'genius' moves.

To be clear, I like the element of randomness in the AI. Of course, I'd prefer a top notch AI, but since we are stuck with a relatively simplistic one, some randomness it is then. And to be honest, even with a top notch AI, I would still like a very small element of randomness, just to keep things a little more interesting.
 

Strange Fellow

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I swear hiring ranged bros is more difficult than ever. Poachers are complete and utter garbage, and hunters cost a hundred bazillion dollars. I would never savescum to prevent the death of a melee bro, but a ranged one? If I weren't playing ironman I'm not sure I could resist the temptation. After 100 days I've found a total of 3 decent ones, and even that is with a severely revised definition of decent.
 

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