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Incline Battle Brothers + Beasts & Exploration, Warriors of the North and Blazing Deserts DLC Thread

Serus

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Virtually any brother of a high-tier background is a solid end-game brother right out the gate. People who complain about the recruitment lottery in BB are exclusively noobs -- either they are literally new or just clueless.

People going around hiring and instantly firing until they find the "right brother" are either so late-game that it literally doesn't matter what you do or cluelessly chasing some sort of extreme ideal that the game has never been balanced around.

All content is pretty comfortably doable with so-so brothers.
What's more, I think the game economy was balanced around spending significant amount of the money on recruitment. Of new brothers and sometimes replacements. If you can skip that part, the costs are mostly wages but if you don't use sword masters, hedge knights and gladiators as your to go backgrounds then wages are not "enough" to prevent you from becoming crazy rich later on.
People expect from all games to be like most CRPGs, which means: player is able to buy everything worth buying from mid game onwards. If not earlier. I for once welcome games like BB (or KotC2) where money is actually limited also past the early game. You either go for "good enough" brothers or spend a lot of money to get "the best" ones. Money that could have been spent on named items. Those are choices and consequences bitches! Real ones, not the: "will i get the nice image nr 1 or nr 2 - after the game already ended" kind Codex loves so much.

I sort of agree with one thing. Without the ability to pay to see recruits' traits - it would be too much randomness for my taste. There are a few traits that can make a bro much less useful than his stats would indicate. IIRC long time ago the game didn't have that option.
What i would probably do if i was developing would be making so that some backgrounds have tendency (but not guarantee) to have stars in the "correct" areas. If a farmhand has stats all over place it make sense. But when a highly specialised background do it, it's less sensible. Especially bros starting with levels. How the hell did they become and then survive being a, say, sellsword, not having talent for either melee attack or defense? A guy like that from time to time - sure, he was lucky. Many however should be more often talented in right areas than others.

Still, I'm pretty OK with the way it currently works.
- When you get a man with stars in the crucial stat(s) - you're good.
- If you have one with high stats but no stars, you're OK.
- If you get one with a good trait, which you can know beforehand, and mediocre but not abysmal stats: OK again.
- If you get good stats AND stars and/or traits, you got yourself an excellent bro, way above average.
- And if you get one with no stars and low roll, well, that's where having to spend additional money comes to play.
Makes sense to me.
 
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Serus

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Eyestabber
You should play with Legends + PTR.
You'll get way harder monsters to fight (every monster gets a stronger, rarer version which appears during mid-late game or special contracts like white wolves or redback spiders) BUT you'll also get a lot of new perks to make overpowered builds to tackle the new content.

And even play the Hexes and permanently charm your opponents when Magic Origins modder comes back to life.
Legends intend to bring it back? I understand that they abandoned the idea and only left some "magic" origins and a few events because it was impossible to implement and balance properly? That's not the case then?
I would really prefer if they worked on horse combat instead - but it seems they hit a technical wall or got disinterested. Horses would add a lot of additional options, be OP in a good way (enemy could use them too) AND would be more within the original idea of BB than fireballs.
 

Darth Canoli

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Legends intend to bring it back? I understand that they abandoned the idea and only left some "magic" origins and a few events because it was impossible to implement and balance properly? That's not the case then?
I would really prefer if they worked on horse combat instead - but it seems they hit a technical wall or got disinterested. Horses would add a lot of additional options, be OP in a good way (enemy could use them too) AND would be more within the original idea of BB than fireballs.

The Seer magic missile was overpowered.
The idea wasn't abandoned though.

Magic Origins is an independent submod working with Both legends and PTR (with or without PTR).
The modder is unavailable at the moment but will return, his mod worked quite well up until the latest DLC and Legends update.

His magic users which were quite overpowered at first were balanced, it's still powerful but alright if you don't manage to recruit 3 elementalists.
 
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The process of turning a bunch of mook losers into formidable fighting men is one of BB's most enduring sources of appeal. I think the community loses sight of that sometimes.

Largely the subreddit's fault. New players tend to gravitate towards it because of its visibility but most of the recruitment advice there is autistic wishcasting or requires the use of mods. Same for their build advice too e.g. the nimble rework completely shattered the old BF or bust meta and dramatically increased the pool of viable bros. The average BB redditor's response? Switching to claims that 100hp is 'baseline' for a nimble bro. Morons, totally detached from the reality of actually playing the game.

Doesn't help that a lot of the available guides are out of date or have similarly unrealistic standards for bros or builds. The game is at a point where its never been easier to build a viable bro, especially with the new toys the DLCs gave us. Vaguely recall it being flexible like this pre new perk tree (rip old executioner and perfect focus archers) but I may be wrong - I didn't get to play with the old perks for very long.

Not sure if its already been posted but I thoroughly recommend this guide to anybody looking for good reference material. I don't agree with everything therein e.g. I'd argue Bullseye is sometimes more useful than the author believes but the understanding of BB's mechanical nuances is top notch.
 
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k0syak

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What? I said the southern armies are probably a dev in-joke about how much they hate their playerbase. AoE gunners and """"conscripts"""" that have insane armor and insane defense. Whoever ran the numbers for the sandniggers was obviously high on drugs, because it doesn't add up. Actually, reddit is littered with plebs claiming north vs south results in southern armies curbstomping the north 95% of the time.
The conscripts have worse armor and defense than raiders, what are you on about?! They are also weak against armor and get wrecked by fire pots themselves.
 

Brancaleone

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The game is at a point where its never been easier to build a viable bro, especially with the new toys the DLCs gave us.
Absolutely, the game is now full of 'pay to win' options (i.e. consumables) or alternatives that have no trade-off or drawbacks, or things that eliminate even the 5% failure chance (which, in a game that is all about risk-management, is a BIG deal).

Nets are sure-hit, dirty cheap, and trivialize high-defense enemies. Grenades are expensive, but also have a 100% chance to work. A 110 MAtk Swordmaster has more chance of failure against a 1hp, stunned, dazed, netted, fleeing goblin than a primitive concoction (which will infallibly work).
Throwing weapons trivialize the lack of ranged skill: at range 2, the difference between a bow quick shot and a throwing weapon is a staggering 24 (a bow has -4% per tile), i.e. six levels' worth of max rolls. At range 2 your 40 RAtk thrower will hit like a 64 RAtk bowman. Then if you want you get an absurd amount of damage increase with mastery, and a 25% to ignore armour with duelist. Only drawback is ammo cost/capacity (which are also a factor for bows, albeit less so), i.e., another 'pay to win' (so to speak) option.
Taunt and whips trivialize non-beast scary enemies. At the very least whips should check against MAtk, not MDef: the way it is, your 45 MAtk, 40 MDef Peddler has like 95% less chance to drop his weapon than an Orc Warlord.
Quick Hands trivializes positioning: why should I wreck my brain in order to position the most appropriate bro to face the most appropriate enemy, when I can have a Swiss Army knife (with even the option of ridiculous Billhook-Two Handed Cleaver combos in the same turn, for free)?
[edit] Dodge Nimble completely trivializes what is by far the most difficult part of the game, i.e. switching from Raider gear to next tier armour. It also works 100% of the time (I played like a moron and got myself stunned, dazed, netted, goblin-poisoned, panicked, exhausted, etc. etc.? No problem, still works like a charm!), and always at 100% effectiveness (while Battle Forge works increasingly less as soon as your armour gets degraded). It also has no drawbacks/trade-offs whatsoever (no fatigue penalty, no huge expenses in order to acquire good or great armour, or dealing with the chance of it not being available). I can afford even more sloppy play, because my risk to get wounded plummets. It also removes a strategical element: you need tools, a lot of, and money, to repair heavy armour, while hp regeneration is quick, free, and always available.

So while I wholeheartedly agree that it's never been easier to build viable bros, perhaps calling it flexible is slightly misleading: now there are quite a few of high reward-no drawback options that give dumb plays a huge pass (nimble, throwing weapons, consumables, etc.), plus a few extremely expensive and much more difficult to implement options that are relegated to niche cases or that give you a bit of extra edge in some selected end-game fights.
 
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Eyestabber

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Virtually any brother of a high-tier background is a solid end-game brother right out the gate. People who complain about the recruitment lottery in BB are exclusively noobs -- either they are literally new or just clueless.

People going around hiring and instantly firing until they find the "right brother" are either so late-game that it literally doesn't matter what you do or cluelessly chasing some sort of extreme ideal that the game has never been balanced around.

All content is pretty comfortably doable with so-so brothers.
Same stuff
Absolutely not true at all. I had an Asthmatic Hedge Knight once. It doesn't get more end game than HK and it doesn't get more crippling than Asthmatic. And the last part is false IF you know how this game balance its encounters. Essentially the only way a player can get ahead on the power curve is by having way above average bros. Numbers and gear are compensated by the game with more/tougher enemies. So playing the recruitment roulette is essential for success. Or cheating said roulette, which is what I and 99% of the community do. Incidentally that's why it's so hard for discussion on BB to move forward: the "hardcore fans" are either liars or masochists. The risk-to-reward ratio of fighting most monsters in this game is unjustifiable and other fights aren't much better. And then you now have the Arena, a place where you can earn roughly the same as a contract while fighting snakes, hyenas and mooks. High reward, low risk.

the ratman always gets the last laugh
Did you watch a thread about a game you don't give a shit about for god knows how many years just so you could post this when someone changed their mind? I didn't really change my mind, but I do think B&E is absolute trash and the game is improved 500% once that terrible DLC is uninstalled.

You're surprised that last DLC of game has enemies that tweak with meta of how you build your battleline?
There is no tweak, Sandniggers are stronger than either orc or undead, to the point where it prevents a sane player from going "random" on their first crisis. Holy war isn't winnable (as first crisis).

With the exception of throwing nets, all those other options are expensive, meaning such OP tools are restricted to post 1st crisis gameplay.

Last but not least, back on the recruitment roulette: you shouldn't have to pay to figure out a guy is a giant or a midget, or clubfooted or has asthma. That's something a mercenary captain would notice just by taking a quick look at the candidate. The recruitment system of BB is terrible and unfun from a gameplay perspective AND also unrealistic gamey and nonsensical. It's the worse of both worlds. OTOH a background like "killer on the run" actually IS something that could reasonably be hidden from the captain, but this one we always know. Thanks, Obama.
 

Brancaleone

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With the exception of throwing nets, all those other options are expensive, meaning such OP tools are restricted to post 1st crisis gameplay.
The triad Nimble, Throwing Weapons and nets is enough to faceroll everything until the 1st crisis at the very least. Taunt is free, Nimble actually represents a net saving (in tools you won't use for repairing armour), whips are cheap. Throwing ammo are expensive only relatively to standard ammo, not in an absolute sense. If you have four throwers, and use up two stacks each in a battle (which you definitely will not need to do every time, and you'll need less javelins/axes than arrows to kill the same enemies), you'll use about 240 gold of ammo at a standard price, vs the 80 gold of four archers using one quiver each (but the archers will also cost you about 40 gold for repairing their bows). Grenades are expensive if bought, not so much if crafted, and you can even get them for free in southern camps.

The focus of the post was not so much about things being easier/harder, but on dumber/more sophisticated alternatives, i.e. something that forces me to take into account more variables/factor vs something that makes those variables/factors irrelevant. In that sense, nimble is an extremely dumb alternative, i.e., by picking it I can forget about so many variable/factors it's ridiculous. And that, from my perspective, is not good for the gameplay.
 
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k0syak

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Sep 24, 2013
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Virtually any brother of a high-tier background is a solid end-game brother right out the gate. People who complain about the recruitment lottery in BB are exclusively noobs -- either they are literally new or just clueless.

People going around hiring and instantly firing until they find the "right brother" are either so late-game that it literally doesn't matter what you do or cluelessly chasing some sort of extreme ideal that the game has never been balanced around.

All content is pretty comfortably doable with so-so brothers.
Same stuff
Absolutely not true at all. I had an Asthmatic Hedge Knight once. It doesn't get more end game than HK and it doesn't get more crippling than Asthmatic. And the last part is false IF you know how this game balance its encounters. Essentially the only way a player can get ahead on the power curve is by having way above average bros. Numbers and gear are compensated by the game with more/tougher enemies. So playing the recruitment roulette is essential for success. Or cheating said roulette, which is what I and 99% of the community do. Incidentally that's why it's so hard for discussion on BB to move forward: the "hardcore fans" are either liars or masochists. The risk-to-reward ratio of fighting most monsters in this game is unjustifiable and other fights aren't much better. And then you now have the Arena, a place where you can earn roughly the same as a contract while fighting snakes, hyenas and mooks. High reward, low risk.

the ratman always gets the last laugh
Did you watch a thread about a game you don't give a shit about for god knows how many years just so you could post this when someone changed their mind? I didn't really change my mind, but I do think B&E is absolute trash and the game is improved 500% once that terrible DLC is uninstalled.

You're surprised that last DLC of game has enemies that tweak with meta of how you build your battleline?
There is no tweak, Sandniggers are stronger than either orc or undead, to the point where it prevents a sane player from going "random" on their first crisis. Holy war isn't winnable (as first crisis).

With the exception of throwing nets, all those other options are expensive, meaning such OP tools are restricted to post 1st crisis gameplay.

Last but not least, back on the recruitment roulette: you shouldn't have to pay to figure out a guy is a giant or a midget, or clubfooted or has asthma. That's something a mercenary captain would notice just by taking a quick look at the candidate. The recruitment system of BB is terrible and unfun from a gameplay perspective AND also unrealistic gamey and nonsensical. It's the worse of both worlds. OTOH a background like "killer on the run" actually IS something that could reasonably be hidden from the captain, but this one we always know. Thanks, Obama.

Hedge Knights can't have the asthmatic, clubfooted or manlet traits (along with a bunch of others). North vs South is absolutely winnable as first crisis (way harder, but still).
Thanks, Obama!
 
Joined
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Messages
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Virtually any brother of a high-tier background is a solid end-game brother right out the gate. People who complain about the recruitment lottery in BB are exclusively noobs -- either they are literally new or just clueless.

People going around hiring and instantly firing until they find the "right brother" are either so late-game that it literally doesn't matter what you do or cluelessly chasing some sort of extreme ideal that the game has never been balanced around.

All content is pretty comfortably doable with so-so brothers.
Same stuff
Absolutely not true at all. I had an Asthmatic Hedge Knight once. It doesn't get more end game than HK and it doesn't get more crippling than Asthmatic. And the last part is false IF you know how this game balance its encounters. Essentially the only way a player can get ahead on the power curve is by having way above average bros. Numbers and gear are compensated by the game with more/tougher enemies. So playing the recruitment roulette is essential for success. Or cheating said roulette, which is what I and 99% of the community do. Incidentally that's why it's so hard for discussion on BB to move forward: the "hardcore fans" are either liars or masochists. The risk-to-reward ratio of fighting most monsters in this game is unjustifiable and other fights aren't much better. And then you now have the Arena, a place where you can earn roughly the same as a contract while fighting snakes, hyenas and mooks. High reward, low risk.

the ratman always gets the last laugh
Did you watch a thread about a game you don't give a shit about for god knows how many years just so you could post this when someone changed their mind? I didn't really change my mind, but I do think B&E is absolute trash and the game is improved 500% once that terrible DLC is uninstalled.

You're surprised that last DLC of game has enemies that tweak with meta of how you build your battleline?
There is no tweak, Sandniggers are stronger than either orc or undead, to the point where it prevents a sane player from going "random" on their first crisis. Holy war isn't winnable (as first crisis).

With the exception of throwing nets, all those other options are expensive, meaning such OP tools are restricted to post 1st crisis gameplay.

Last but not least, back on the recruitment roulette: you shouldn't have to pay to figure out a guy is a giant or a midget, or clubfooted or has asthma. That's something a mercenary captain would notice just by taking a quick look at the candidate. The recruitment system of BB is terrible and unfun from a gameplay perspective AND also unrealistic gamey and nonsensical. It's the worse of both worlds. OTOH a background like "killer on the run" actually IS something that could reasonably be hidden from the captain, but this one we always know. Thanks, Obama.

Hedge Knights can't have the asthmatic, clubfooted or manlet traits (along with a bunch of others). North vs South is absolutely winnable as first crisis (way harder, but still).
Thanks, Obama!

IIRC it was possible to get bad traits on combat backgrounds earlier in the game's development. Thankfully no longer since the introduction of excluded traits by background.

Edit: still a few shitters in there e.g Swordmasters can still roll Asthmatic according to the wiki.

Further edit: and rather regrettably Bastards are not allowed to be Fat.
 
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Serus

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Small but great planet of Potatohole
Virtually any brother of a high-tier background is a solid end-game brother right out the gate. People who complain about the recruitment lottery in BB are exclusively noobs -- either they are literally new or just clueless.

People going around hiring and instantly firing until they find the "right brother" are either so late-game that it literally doesn't matter what you do or cluelessly chasing some sort of extreme ideal that the game has never been balanced around.

All content is pretty comfortably doable with so-so brothers.
Same stuff
Absolutely not true at all. I had an Asthmatic Hedge Knight once. It doesn't get more end game than HK and it doesn't get more crippling than Asthmatic. And the last part is false IF you know how this game balance its encounters. Essentially the only way a player can get ahead on the power curve is by having way above average bros. Numbers and gear are compensated by the game with more/tougher enemies. So playing the recruitment roulette is essential for success. Or cheating said roulette, which is what I and 99% of the community do. Incidentally that's why it's so hard for discussion on BB to move forward: the "hardcore fans" are either liars or masochists. The risk-to-reward ratio of fighting most monsters in this game is unjustifiable and other fights aren't much better. And then you now have the Arena, a place where you can earn roughly the same as a contract while fighting snakes, hyenas and mooks. High reward, low risk.


You're surprised that last DLC of game has enemies that tweak with meta of how you build your battleline?
There is no tweak, Sandniggers are stronger than either orc or undead, to the point where it prevents a sane player from going "random" on their first crisis. Holy war isn't winnable (as first crisis).

With the exception of throwing nets, all those other options are expensive, meaning such OP tools are restricted to post 1st crisis gameplay.

Last but not least, back on the recruitment roulette: you shouldn't have to pay to figure out a guy is a giant or a midget, or clubfooted or has asthma. That's something a mercenary captain would notice just by taking a quick look at the candidate. The recruitment system of BB is terrible and unfun from a gameplay perspective AND also unrealistic gamey and nonsensical. It's the worse of both worlds. OTOH a background like "killer on the run" actually IS something that could reasonably be hidden from the captain, but this one we always know. Thanks, Obama.
This is such a BULLSHIT of gigantic proportions... Imagine that - gigantic shit of a bull?
Having "way above average bros" is not the only way. I don't know if it's a way at all and I did play this game on quite hard settings (i'm obviously a cheater, right?). I'm not even that good. It seems to me that you are just an inexperienced player. Maybe you knew it long time ago but obviously not anymore. Which begs the question why, instead of being grumpy, you don't try to learn the game?

As to power curve, gear is not included. At least i never witnessed it in my games on any significant scale. Perhaps its some minor factor? Where did you get that info? Anyone has some insight on this?
In fact gear is the way to get ahead of the curve. Early game things like armour from brigands. Daggers are your friend. Later instead of doing contracts - raiding camps. And not spending all your money on high-end backgrounds but buy some gear - and recruit the decent cheap backgrounds and keep only the good bros. Much less "roulette" this way. And dogs. And consumables. And last but not least - good tactics.

As to the recruitment system being not fun? Perhaps, matter of preference i suppose. However the "realism" argument won't fly. This is and is meant to be a game with highly abstract ruleset. So yes you have to pay to see their traits because those are rules - not part of a realistic simulation. I might add that that you also get to buy knowledge of traits that you wouldn't be able to learn "realistically" before hiring a bro. And i am certain that if you wouldn't be able to tell that someone is a coward before hiring him you'd bitch about that too.
 

k0syak

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Has anyone tried multiple gunners with 2 handgonnes each (turn 1 swap and reload, turn 2 double shot)? If you get 4, most things either die or break before reaching your lines, even works on lindwurms :D
 

Serus

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Has anyone tried multiple gunners with 2 handgonnes each (turn 1 swap and reload, turn 2 double shot)? If you get 4, most things either die or break before reaching your lines, even works on lindwurms :D
I was toying with the idea before. But lindwurms.... Have you been really able to break morale of a wurm with 4 shots from a handgun? Semi-reliably?
 

k0syak

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Has anyone tried multiple gunners with 2 handgonnes each (turn 1 swap and reload, turn 2 double shot)? If you get 4, most things either die or break before reaching your lines, even works on lindwurms :D
I was toying with idea. But lindwurms.... Have you been really able to break morale of a wurm with 4 shots from a handgun? Semi-reliably?
4 as in 4 gunners, so 8 shots. All three that weren't engaged got routed, but only tried it once, hate fighting those fuckers. 2 double gunners are enough to wreck humans and orcs pretty reliably.
 
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The game is at a point where its never been easier to build a viable bro, especially with the new toys the DLCs gave us.
Absolutely, the game is now full of 'pay to win' options (i.e. consumables) or alternatives that have no trade-off or drawbacks, or things that eliminate even the 5% failure chance (which, in a game that is all about risk-management, is a BIG deal).

Nets are sure-hit, dirty cheap, and trivialize high-defense enemies. Grenades are expensive, but also have a 100% chance to work. A 110 MAtk Swordmaster has more chance of failure against a 1hp, stunned, dazed, netted, fleeing goblin than a primitive concoction (which will infallibly work).
Throwing weapons trivialize the lack of ranged skill: at range 2, the difference between a bow quick shot and a throwing weapon is a staggering 24 (a bow has -4% per tile), i.e. six levels' worth of max rolls. At range 2 your 40 RAtk thrower will hit like a 64 RAtk bowman. Then if you want you get an absurd amount of damage increase with mastery, and a 25% to ignore armour with duelist. Only drawback is ammo cost/capacity (which are also a factor for bows, albeit less so), i.e., another 'pay to win' (so to speak) option.
Taunt and whips trivialize non-beast scary enemies. At the very least whips should check against MAtk, not MDef: the way it is, your 45 MAtk, 40 MDef Peddler has like 95% less chance to drop his weapon than an Orc Warlord.
Quick Hands trivializes positioning: why should I wreck my brain in order to position the most appropriate bro to face the most appropriate enemy, when I can have a Swiss Army knife (with even the option of ridiculous Billhook-Two Handed Cleaver combos in the same turn, for free)?
Dodge completely trivializes what is by far the most difficult part of the game, i.e. switching from Raider gear to next tier armour. It also works 100% of the time (I played like a moron and got myself stunned, dazed, netted, goblin-poisoned, panicked, exhausted, etc. etc.? No problem, still works like a charm!), and always at 100% effectiveness (while Battle Forge works increasingly less as soon as your armour gets degraded). It also has no drawbacks/trade-offs whatsoever (no fatigue penalty, no huge expenses in order to acquire good or great armour, or dealing with the chance of it not being available). I can afford even more sloppy play, because my risk to get wounded plummets. It also removes a strategical element: you need tools, a lot of, and money, to repair heavy armour, while hp regeneration is quick, free, and always available.

So while I wholeheartedly agree that it's never been easier to build viable bros, perhaps calling it flexible is slightly misleading: now there are quite a few of high reward-no drawback options that give dumb plays a huge pass (nimble, throwing weapons, consumables, etc.), plus a few extremely expensive and much more difficult to implement options that are relegated to niche cases or that give you a bit of extra edge in some selected end-game fights.
Forge has certainly lost a step compared to Nimble (I assume you mean Nimble when you use Dodge above). A good buff for BF would be to reinstate the old damage reduction calculation i.e. reduction is 5% of maximum total armor value rather than current total armor value. Would make the investment a bit more worthwhile and consistent. I don't think you could realistically revert to old Nimble with the way the game is now, too much enemy AiD floating around with the DLCs.

The Greatsword could use a little buff up too, nerfed as it has been into a pitiful state. The AiD and armor damage are now too low to make the flexibility worth it AND it is handily outperformed in specific roles by the other tier three 2-handers or polearms; all of which happen to be cheaper than the GS. Very sad. Fond memories of running an all GS AoE massacre frontline.
 

Darth Roxor

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Did you watch a thread about a game you don't give a shit about for god knows how many years just so you could post this when someone changed their mind?

no, i was tagged in the post right above mine and then read up a little
 

Brancaleone

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The game is at a point where its never been easier to build a viable bro, especially with the new toys the DLCs gave us.
Absolutely, the game is now full of 'pay to win' options (i.e. consumables) or alternatives that have no trade-off or drawbacks, or things that eliminate even the 5% failure chance (which, in a game that is all about risk-management, is a BIG deal).

Nets are sure-hit, dirty cheap, and trivialize high-defense enemies. Grenades are expensive, but also have a 100% chance to work. A 110 MAtk Swordmaster has more chance of failure against a 1hp, stunned, dazed, netted, fleeing goblin than a primitive concoction (which will infallibly work).
Throwing weapons trivialize the lack of ranged skill: at range 2, the difference between a bow quick shot and a throwing weapon is a staggering 24 (a bow has -4% per tile), i.e. six levels' worth of max rolls. At range 2 your 40 RAtk thrower will hit like a 64 RAtk bowman. Then if you want you get an absurd amount of damage increase with mastery, and a 25% to ignore armour with duelist. Only drawback is ammo cost/capacity (which are also a factor for bows, albeit less so), i.e., another 'pay to win' (so to speak) option.
Taunt and whips trivialize non-beast scary enemies. At the very least whips should check against MAtk, not MDef: the way it is, your 45 MAtk, 40 MDef Peddler has like 95% less chance to drop his weapon than an Orc Warlord.
Quick Hands trivializes positioning: why should I wreck my brain in order to position the most appropriate bro to face the most appropriate enemy, when I can have a Swiss Army knife (with even the option of ridiculous Billhook-Two Handed Cleaver combos in the same turn, for free)?
Dodge completely trivializes what is by far the most difficult part of the game, i.e. switching from Raider gear to next tier armour. It also works 100% of the time (I played like a moron and got myself stunned, dazed, netted, goblin-poisoned, panicked, exhausted, etc. etc.? No problem, still works like a charm!), and always at 100% effectiveness (while Battle Forge works increasingly less as soon as your armour gets degraded). It also has no drawbacks/trade-offs whatsoever (no fatigue penalty, no huge expenses in order to acquire good or great armour, or dealing with the chance of it not being available). I can afford even more sloppy play, because my risk to get wounded plummets. It also removes a strategical element: you need tools, a lot of, and money, to repair heavy armour, while hp regeneration is quick, free, and always available.

So while I wholeheartedly agree that it's never been easier to build viable bros, perhaps calling it flexible is slightly misleading: now there are quite a few of high reward-no drawback options that give dumb plays a huge pass (nimble, throwing weapons, consumables, etc.), plus a few extremely expensive and much more difficult to implement options that are relegated to niche cases or that give you a bit of extra edge in some selected end-game fights.
Forge has certainly lost a step compared to Nimble (I assume you mean Nimble when you use Dodge above). A good buff for BF would be to reinstate the old damage reduction calculation i.e. reduction is 5% of maximum total armor value rather than current total armor value. Would make the investment a bit more worthwhile and consistent. I don't think you could realistically revert to old Nimble with the way the game is now, too much enemy AiD floating around with the DLCs.

The Greatsword could use a little buff up too, nerfed as it has been into a pitiful state. The AiD and armor damage are now too low to make the flexibility worth it AND it is handily outperformed in specific roles by the other tier three 2-handers or polearms; all of which happen to be cheaper than the GS. Very sad. Fond memories of running an all GS AoE massacre frontline.
To be honest, I don't even see it as an issue of balance. [edit: I personally like BF the way it is: it forces you to keep track of your armour degradation, i.e., it adds a further factor to take into account]

Nimble is a really clumsy attempt to make light armour relevant in later game (why not medium armour then?). Conceptually, it's ridiculous: at the cost of one perk, you have a magical, infinite, eternal, permanent, always active, non dispellable super-stoneskin. You keep twisting your body just the right amount to get only 40% of the damage even if you are stunned, rooted, netted, exhausted, panicked, etc. etc. A two-handed mace strikes you down? No prob, in those two turns you are prone (and possibly surrounded) you will still be wiggling your ass just fine in order to dodge (but not quite) blows. It only checks armour and helmet fatigue: you can go around in raider gear, with an sead splitter in you right hand, an orc metal shield in your left, and four mansplitters strapped to your back, and you'll still be just as nimble as if you were naked, while at the same time not being able to even move a step because you are already fatigued out from turn 1 if you have less than 128 base fatigue.

Mechanically, in a game that is mostly about gear, it's an absolute disaster. BF works better if you have better armour: more expensive, more difficult to find, riskier to acquire. That is fine. Nimble works better if you have worse armour: cheaper, easier to find , less risky to acquire. Should I select one perk and be fine with raider gear until the endgame, or select one perk (actually two, since you typically also need Brawny) and spend an enourmous amount of money, time and take huge risks in order to acquire heavy armour in order to make decent use of that perk? It greatly diminishes risk-management: you will never -ever- again take full damage, no matter the situation, only 40%. With BF, at least you have to take care of your armour: you lose it, you get full damage.

Then, subjectively speaking: to me the best thing of Battle Brothers is the nail-biting whenever I have to make a hard choice or I didn't take some factor into account and now my mercenary is in a risky situation. With nimble, it's a snoozefest. Chain-berserker who can one-shot my 110hp, 300/300 armour battleforged bro? With nimble, it will take three shots at the very least. Armour piercing weapons? Nimble, and stop worrying. Chosen? Nimble! Lindwurm? Nimble-tank! Schrats? Nimble! Ifrits? Nimble! And so on, and so on. Oh, but Nimble is weak(er) against cleavers and poison. Well, poison doesn't one shot you, and neither does bleeding: even late game, it's mostly about the 5% hit that can one-shot a brother, not about the "I played like an ass for 5 consecutive turns, and my bro now has six bleeding stacks, and nobody in my company has bandages, nimble is weak against cleavers!" Similarly, having eaten 30 goblin arrows means you had oh-so-many opportunities to correct the situation.

As I would like it: since light armour already has its own reward, which is a truckload of extra farigue and initiative, give the player extra ways to make (better) use of that fatigue/initiative. From the top of my head, it could be anything among:
[As a premise: make Nimble dependent on total equipment fatigue, make Quick Hands cost 1 AP but make it reduce throwing nets/bombs to 3 AP]
- the less equipment fatigue, the more chance to re-roll a hit (similar to the Lucky trait, but better).
- Dodge is increasingly less dependent on current initiative, depending on how light your equipment is.
- Rotate and Footwork have heavily reduced farigue/Ap cost, depending on how light your equipment is.
- Quick Hands has 0 AP cost.
- Nine Lives gives increased bonus when activated, and for more turns
- Anticipation grants also some damage reduction proportional to the lightness of your equipment and to the distance (the only case where the 'twisting your body' thing would make a modicum of sense).
[edit] - a successful attempt to get rid of nets/roots costs you 1 AP, one quarter of the fatigue; an unsuccessful one 4 AP, half fatigue (after all, you are nimble: you slip from under the net, don't necessarily have to break it)
[edit] - some chance to shrug off the stunned/dazed effect, proportional to how light your equipment is

And so on, I'm sure there are much more talented people than me could devise much more interesting options. The point is, Nimble if based on things like these would make things MORE interesting: wouldn't you take some additional risks with wearing light armour if it allowed you to get to the enemy line, disengage twice with Footwork for a reasonable fatigue/AP cost and then get to that Arbalester/Necromancer/Shaman/Hexe/etc.? With all the risk that ending up deep into the enemy lines would entail, of course.
Instead, we got brain-dead perma-stoneskin, the epitome of the Sawyeristic approach to balance.

And before some genius has the epiphany of a lifetime and tells me "if you don't like Nimble, don't take it, duh!", that's exactly what I do: I play with no Nimble, no Taunt, no Quick Hands, no Whips, no Throwing Weapons, no reserve (only 12 men, everybody fights, and I include at the very least one monk and one historian in every run). But it's still a huge missed opportunity.
 
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Serus

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Nimble works better if you have worse armour: cheaper, easier to find , less risky to acquire.

Brancaleone


Sorry for nitpicking. Technically - no. Nimble can still profit from better armour. You will be better in an assassin armour or a named light one than in raider gear. And those are as hard to come by as good heavy armours. It's just that the "profit margin" is so small that it doesn't matter much in practice so is mostly irrelevant and not worth spending resources on. This is, as you correctly said, a problem in a game "about gear".

I agree otherwise, nimble is ridiculous conceptually and also somewhat OP in practice. Not using Nimble is of curse not a great option. BTW, do you play Ironman?

"Legends" mod has "medium armour" line of perks, btw. I didn't play it very long but it seemed OK. Also not all bros in Legends have all options (nimble, bf, medium) available to them AND there are additional perks that gets better with higher armour values. That makes other options more balanced with Nimble but Nimble itself conceptually is still the same aka ridiculous.

Good post.
 

Brancaleone

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Nimble works better if you have worse armour: cheaper, easier to find , less risky to acquire.

Brancaleone


Sorry for nitpicking. Technically - no. Nimble can still profit from better armour. You will be better in an assassin armour or a named light one than in raider gear. And those are as hard to come by as good heavy armours. It's just that the "profit margin" is so small that it doesn't matter much in practice so is mostly irrelevant and not worth spending resources on. This is, as you correctly said, a problem in a game "about gear".

I agree otherwise, nimble is ridiculous conceptually and also somewhat OP in practice. Not using Nimble is of curse not a great option. BTW, do you play Ironman?

"Legends" mod has "medium armour" line of perks, btw. I didn't play it very long but it seemed OK. Also not all bros in Legends have all options (nimble, bf, medium) available to them AND there are additional perks that gets better with higher armour values. That makes other options more balanced with Nimble but Nimble itself conceptually is still the same aka ridiculous.

Good post.
Yes, you still have a small incentive to acquire rare/expensive/endgame gear in order to get some marginal advantage. Which, in some cases (if you roll medium-ish famed armour with especially low fatigue), just adds to the ludicrous advantages of Nimble: for no drawbacks whatsoever, now you even have a decent amount of armour on top of your stoneskin! Actually, with merely average fatigue rolls for Named Noble Mail and Wolf Helmet, you can have full Nimble with up to 175/200 armour. With lowest fatigue rolls, you can have up to 250/200 armour by sacrificing a measly 1% in damage reduction. Eat that, cleavers&goblins!

Let's put it this way (even if it's not 100% accurate): Dodge is a perk that makes you think more (you have a real incentive to take your initiative and the related fatigue mechanic into account), Nimble is a perk that makes you think much, much, much less.

I play Expert/Expert/Low, random unexplored maps with permanent destruction enabled. I play quasi-Ironman, in the sense that if I get screwed by the abysmal worldmap pathfinding (so many times, especially when you are fleeing from an enemy, you start zig-zagging for no reason, or even go the opposite direction you clicked for half a second) or by the automatic retreat from battle, I reload. Of course, I couldn't really claim that all of my runs end up in glory and covered in sestertii™, but that's the way I like it.

As I said, I really would like something that gives extra options/benefits to having more fatigue/initiative. I think the fatigue/initiative base armour system is excellent, it's just that there is no much room for, let's say, an incursor/infiltrator-type of build (that does not have to depend on getting 50 defense without shield).
 
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oasis789

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To be honest, I don't even see it as an issue oeven late game, it's mostly about the 5% hit that can one-shot a brother
Have you considered just modding out the 5-95 dice cap? I know it's to simulate a critical failure or lucky break but it always feels like being punished for playing well.
 

Brancaleone

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To be honest, I don't even see it as an issue oeven late game, it's mostly about the 5% hit that can one-shot a brother
Have you considered just modding out the 5-95 dice cap? I know it's to simulate a critical failure or lucky break but it always feels like being punished for playing well.
But I'm actually fine with a 5% being able, in extreme circumstances, to one-shot a BF brother. To me part of the appeal of Battle Brothers is trying your best to avoid those extreme circumstances. Ok, maybe not a 300/300 BF bro with very good hp (for a BF bro), that's a bit too much.
 

Brancaleone

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I don't think you could realistically revert to old Nimble with the way the game is now, too much enemy AiD floating around with the DLCs.
How was exactly old Nimble (I cannot seem to recall)? Was it similar to current Dodge?

Do you know where to find descriptions of the old perks? I tried to look in the DevBlog and in the Steam updates, but there's very little.
 
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I don't think you could realistically revert to old Nimble with the way the game is now, too much enemy AiD floating around with the DLCs.
How was exactly old Nimble (I cannot seem to recall)? Was it similar to current Dodge?

Do you know where to find descriptions of the old perks? I tried to look in the DevBlog and in the Steam updates, but there's very little.
IIRC Nimble pre B&E worked as a % chance of taking half damage from a hit based on the total fat penatly of the equipped armor & helmet. Old Steam guides are a good shout for reference info on how current perks used to work - anything that hasn't been updated since B&E's release is a good bet. I think the change to the Battle Forged formula was just prior to full release. I remember players complaining about a big drop off in BF durability then.

Very little reference info around now about the old perk trees (the current perk tree was introduced in August 2016 looking back at the Dev Blogs). Most of the old perks turned up in individual mods, lots are in Legends (albeit tweaked somewhat) and some are still used by older enemy types e.g. Hedge Knights get Battle Flow & Devastating Strikes, the cheeky bastards.

Edit: would be interesting to run a pre Aug 2016 build again sometime if anyone has one archived.

Edit again: and I think Nimble may even have worked like the Lucky trait once upon a time as well but I'm less sure about that.
 
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7h30n

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To read 374 pages of this thread or not to read... Perhaps I should just ask a potentially repeat question here, hmm...

Steam sale should be coming up soon, and I've been eyeing to pick up this game for a while now. Obviously, I've never played the game before, and the reason I'm thinking of getting it is because I get classic X-Com vibes from it.

Should I immediately buy the DLCs as well, and if so which ones?
 

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