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Best fantasy 4x

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,141
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Ingrija

Dominions is not 4x, it's more of a grand strategy. 4x is a polite way to say "Civilization clone".
I can list you a lot of 4X that are not Civilization clones.

More than half of them are in space.

Space 4x are Master of Orion clones, and Master of Orion is "Civilization but in spaaaahce".

Point being, if your unit of the map is a "province" of arbitrary scale and you know the lay of the land in advance instead of unveiling it one tile at a time, a 4x it is not.
 

ValeVelKal

Arcane
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
1,604
Dominions is not 4x, it's more of a grand strategy. 4x is a polite way to say "Civilization clone".
I can list you a lot of 4X that are not Civilization clones.

More than half of them are in space.

Space 4x are Master of Orion clones, and Master of Orion is "Civilization but in spaaaahce".

Point being, if your unit of the map is a "province" of arbitrary scale and you know the lay of the land in advance instead of unveiling it one tile at a time, a 4x it is not.
Master of Orion does not come from Civ but from Reach for the Stars (1982) which itself is inspired from the board game Stellar Conquest (1974).

By Sid Meier’s own admission, Civ 1 is a copy of the game « Empire, Wargame of the Century » (1987), itself a port on PC of the mainframe game Empire (1977) ; both by Walter Bright. Sid Meier thought the game would be better with research, which led to City Management.

https://youtu.be/AJ-auWfJTts

By your definition, Europa Universalis is not 4X ; not all lands start explored :).
 

visions

Arcane
Joined
Jun 10, 2007
Messages
1,801
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here
So I was getting really mad because I saw everyone talk about "Caster of Magic" - why would you vote for what's probably some shitty clone?

Then I searched for it. They... They need a dlc? A dlc to my favorite ever 4x game? And it's... Good?
What do you think about criticism of the AI of master of magic and the age of wonders series?
AoW 1 is my favorite game of all time but the AI is pants on head retarded and way too passive. It would be better if it was retarded but at least aggressive.
Did you ever try the improved AI of caster of magic?

No, I never played the original Master of Magic much either.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250

Dominions is not 4x, it's more of a grand strategy. 4x is a polite way to say "Civilization clone".
You have to ask, though: What is the actual distinction between the two? Near as I can tell, the only real difference is the expected starting scenario: In a 4X, everyone is expected to start with more or less nothing on a roughly even keel and expand across the map from there. In GS, this step is essentially replaced by having some unknown actors playing the game badly prior to you getting to play it: The map already exists in its mostly-settled form and you take over from there. To muddy the issue, normal "4X" games can often ship with premade scenarios and "Grand Strategy" games like CK can offer "shattered world" options that 4X-ify the process.

Given that the distinction appears to only be in the expected start conditions, as everything else is the same, Dominations therefore should rightly fall on the 4X setting, since the default mode of play is that you start with one one province and a smattering of basic starter units and must build everything from scratch from there as you expand across the map (through pacifying neutral barbarians rather than engaging with other actors).
 

mondblut

Arcane
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Ingrija
You have to ask, though: What is the actual distinction between the two?

"4x" means Civilization clone. "Grand strategy" means EU clone. What is the actual distinction between Civilization and EU? Tell me they are the same game, and people will look at you funny.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
So where do you classify games that are explicitly and obviously neither? Something like Stars or Dominations is very clearly not either of these. I would argue that my classification offers a better divide.
 

Conan

Magister
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
183
Birthright_-_The_Gorgon%27s_Alliance_Coverart.png
Birthright: The gorgon's alliance



The best 4X ever made with an included shirty RPG blubber gameplay.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,467
Location
casting coach
Master of Magic

So I was getting really mad because I saw everyone talk about "Caster of Magic" - why would you vote for what's probably some shitty clone?

Then I searched for it. They... They need a dlc? A dlc to my favorite ever 4x game? And it's... Good?
YMMV, it's very different from MoM. More like a total overhaul mod and none of it for the better imo. If I could play vanilla MoM with CoMs improved AI then that would be pretty neat.
Do you mind mentioning some changes they made that you dislike and why?
Suffice to say the changes came down to increasing the game speed and pace far too much for my taste.
That sounds really cool, tried MoM at one point and the slow ass pace at least at the game start was the biggest thing that made me drop it.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
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Developer
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4,315
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Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Master of magic in SP, dominions 5 in MP.

The age of wonders series is also pretty good.

Do I need the nu windows version of caster of magic?
I feel cyanided to have to purchase the same game twice.
 

visions

Arcane
Joined
Jun 10, 2007
Messages
1,801
Location
here
Master of Magic

So I was getting really mad because I saw everyone talk about "Caster of Magic" - why would you vote for what's probably some shitty clone?

Then I searched for it. They... They need a dlc? A dlc to my favorite ever 4x game? And it's... Good?
YMMV, it's very different from MoM. More like a total overhaul mod and none of it for the better imo. If I could play vanilla MoM with CoMs improved AI then that would be pretty neat.
Do you mind mentioning some changes they made that you dislike and why?
Suffice to say the changes came down to increasing the game speed and pace far too much for my taste.
That sounds really cool, tried MoM at one point and the slow ass pace at least at the game start was the biggest thing that made me drop it.

Same here.
 

Igge

Educated
Joined
Jun 26, 2022
Messages
143
Birthright_-_The_Gorgon%27s_Alliance_Coverart.png
Birthright: The gorgon's alliance



The best 4X ever made with an included shirty RPG blubber gameplay.
Is it really worth playing? I've seen many negative comments regarding weird game mechanics and bugs
 

Conan

Magister
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
183
Birthright_-_The_Gorgon%27s_Alliance_Coverart.png
Birthright: The gorgon's alliance



The best 4X ever made with an included shirty RPG blubber gameplay.
Is it really worth playing? I've seen many negative comments regarding weird game mechanics and bugs
The strategy layer is, in my opinion, without par in structure. The RPG aspect is questionable. The tactics gameplay is okay. If any game needed a graphic and gameplay update, it is this one. Other than that this is an excellent game, bugs and all. I generally played it without the RPG portion.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,141
Location
Ingrija
The strategy layer is, in my opinion, without par in structure. The RPG aspect is questionable. The tactics gameplay is okay. If any game needed a graphic and gameplay update, it is this one. Other than that this is an excellent game, bugs and all. I generally played it without the RPG portion.

It's the only game where high level dungeoneering is done right. Detect Treasure - Teleport to cluster of shiny dots, loot - Teleport to cluster of shiny dots, loot - Teleport to cluster of shiny dots, loot - Teleport to the exit, leave. That's how adults are gotta do the dungeons instead of going all Bakhmut on them.
 

Humanophage

Arcane
Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
4,972
Fall from Heaven 2 (Ashes of Erebus) for Civilization 4 is quite nice. Good gameplay. The factions are diverse. The world ends up quite atmospheric.

I have also heard positive things about Faerun for Civilization 5, but haven't tried it.
 

Igge

Educated
Joined
Jun 26, 2022
Messages
143
Birthright_-_The_Gorgon%27s_Alliance_Coverart.png
Birthright: The gorgon's alliance



The best 4X ever made with an included shirty RPG blubber gameplay.
Is it really worth playing? I've seen many negative comments regarding weird game mechanics and bugs
The strategy layer is, in my opinion, without par in structure. The RPG aspect is questionable. The tactics gameplay is okay. If any game needed a graphic and gameplay update, it is this one. Other than that this is an excellent game, bugs and all. I generally played it without the RPG portion.
Wonder why there were so many innovative fantasy strategy games in the 90s (Age of Wonders 1, Lords of Magic, BR: Gorgon Alliance, Fantasy General, also tactics: Dark Omen, Myth etc etc) and in the first half of the 00s, and now the best we can wish for are sequels and indie remakes of the old games.
 

asfasdf

robot
Patron
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
839
Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
Creativity is dead in games, it has been for 20 years now, with a very few exceptions here and there. Also, best 4x is still moo2
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
7,796
==========
dominion
this game has a great lore. I spend a dozen of hour just reading the unit's description (i never read lore in any game). But the game itself is rather meh, lots of clicking to move your units, set up them in correct formations, giving them orders... then you just give up make ton of unit, send priest to spread candles... and win, because AI is not very challenging. I know gazillion of spells and items ... but is this really improving the experience?

Any mods of Dom games to improve thr AI?

I want to like these games, but my MP days are psst. I just wanna relax with a proper SP game of them.
 

Beowulf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
1,957
==========
dominion
this game has a great lore. I spend a dozen of hour just reading the unit's description (i never read lore in any game). But the game itself is rather meh, lots of clicking to move your units, set up them in correct formations, giving them orders... then you just give up make ton of unit, send priest to spread candles... and win, because AI is not very challenging. I know gazillion of spells and items ... but is this really improving the experience?

Any mods of Dom games to improve thr AI?

I want to like these games, but my MP days are psst. I just wanna relax with a proper SP game of them.
Maybe try Conquest of Elysium instead.
 

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