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Bethesda General Discussion Thread

copebot

Learned
Joined
Dec 27, 2020
Messages
387
FO:NV is very well written with many compelling and entertaining characters in a fantastical world that makes sense.
FNV writing interacts with gameplay somewhat: exploration, factions, choices, and choices depend on roleplaying system. It's not binary like only writing is good (like KOTOR2).

Good writing can mask a lot of issues in design and gameplay in a narrative-driven RPG
should it tho? games should be fun to play.[/quote]

KOTOR 2 is truly a terrible game. The ending act could have been designed in the NWN level creator in 10 minutes, with all the time spent on getting the dialogue trees working. KOTOR 1 was also quite weak from a gameplay standpoint. There are passive clicker games that have better gameplay than the KOTOR series, which mostly just involves hitting a single button endlessly to pass through encounters with no tactical depth. However, at least KOTOR2 had some interesting stories to tell, which was still a fresh thing at the time the game was released.

FO:NV was acceptable from a gameplay standpoint and a nice improvement from FO:3. FO:4 unquestionably has better gameplay and a more varied and unique character building system, but the writing is significantly worse.

Personally, as I've gotten older, I just have less patience for 'branching' narrative elements in RPGs. For me, strategy games and roguelikes have more meaningful 'choice and consequence' as games than narrative RPGs do. Having grown up with these things since a friend gave me a pirated disc of Fallout 2 in middle school, I am just used to all the lame tricks used to try to portray "choice and consequence" that are, in practice, totally shallow and do not really hold up to repeat playthroughs. The illusion of C&C is always more compelling than the dull reality of it. The "C&C" in a game like Planescape: Torment or FO1/2/NV are just quite shallow compared to potentially profound choices that you might make in a strategy game, tactics focused game, or roguelike. Just changing what text file displays and what .mp3 file plays or showing a different .png at the ending slide is just not compelling in a game context.

If you pick almost any novel written by a halfway competent author -- even any airport novel that isn't written for women -- you will have a more interesting and compelling story experience for a low price with a minor time commitment. I think there's a place for writing in games, but the whole select-from-a-menu school of narrative design is just not very compelling. Games like 2016 Prey have some interesting 'choice' segments that don't involve ZzzZZZzzzZ menu-based "gameplay." Most games with tons of dialogue would be improved by dramatic reductions in how much story content they include. For whatever reason, so many mainstream game directors think that it makes a game deeper to have 200 hours of dull-as-dishwater recorded dialogue. People made fun of '90s games for relying too heavily on cutscenes, but at least a lot of those had production values and were short. Look at Thief 1 / 2 for example: each mission had an artistically crafted animated cutscene with a useful voiceover mission briefing. These scenes mostly hold up artistically today, about 2 decades later. They were good then, and they're good now. Cyberpunk 2077 style unskippable custcenes may look pretty, but they are somewhat boring the first time through, intensely boring on any subsequent playthrough. Any '90s FMV sins are minor compared to the oodles of pointless recorded dialogue in so many contemporary titles.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
11,882
3l04i9.jpg
 

Delicieuxz

Cipher
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
558
So, Bethesda was founded by a person who wanted to use the company to help sick children and provide coordination for other publishers to give back to society, who was passionate about technology, and adamant about innovation. But it was stolen and taken-over by a devil, Robert Altman, who pioneered abusive industry practices, sued everyone in sight, stripped the company of innovation and ignored the importance of actual talent for making games, and reportedly never touched a game in his life.

Bethesda games over the past 17+ years would probably have been far better had Christopher Weaver not had his own company stolen from him by Robert Altman. Weaver, Bethesda / ZeniMax' Chief Technology Officer, was actually passionate about game-making, which was why he asked Altman to manage the financial side of the company while he focused on design aspects.

Robert Altman is undoubtedly a tragedy to have befallen Bethesda / ZeniMax and the games industry, and probably one of the worst things to have ever happened to the games industry.
 
Last edited:
Self-Ejected

TheDiceMustRoll

Game Analist
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
761
So, Bethesda was founded by a person who wanted to use the company to help sick children and provide coordination for other publishers to give back to society, who was passionate about technology, and adamant about innovation. But it was stolen and taken-over by a devil, Robert Altman, who pioneered abusive industry practices, sued everyone in sight, stripped the company of innovation and ignored the importance of actual talent for making games, and reportedly never touched a game in his life.

Bethesda games over the past 17+ years would probably have been far better had Christopher Weaver not had his own company stolen from him by Robert Altman. Weaver, Bethesda / ZeniMax' Chief Technology Officer, was actually passionate about game-making, which was why he asked Altman to manage the financial side of the company while he focused on design aspects.

Robert Altman is undoubtedly a tragedy to have befallen Bethesda / ZeniMax and the games industry, and probably one of the worst things to have ever happened to the games industry.

todd seems to have truly liked the guy so who can say
 

Delicieuxz

Cipher
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
558
So, Bethesda was founded by a person who wanted to use the company to help sick children and provide coordination for other publishers to give back to society, who was passionate about technology, and adamant about innovation. But it was stolen and taken-over by a devil, Robert Altman, who pioneered abusive industry practices, sued everyone in sight, stripped the company of innovation and ignored the importance of actual talent for making games, and reportedly never touched a game in his life.

Bethesda games over the past 17+ years would probably have been far better had Christopher Weaver not had his own company stolen from him by Robert Altman. Weaver, Bethesda / ZeniMax' Chief Technology Officer, was actually passionate about game-making, which was why he asked Altman to manage the financial side of the company while he focused on design aspects.

Robert Altman is undoubtedly a tragedy to have befallen Bethesda / ZeniMax and the games industry, and probably one of the worst things to have ever happened to the games industry.

todd seems to have truly liked the guy so who can say

I've never seen Todd as being regarded for having good sense. He speaks like a simpleton who thinks the most mundane, unspectacular, and often detrimental ideas are somehow revolutionary, and seems pretty clueless, to me. He's made every next Bethesda game more dumbed-down than the previous one, demonstrating himself to not actually know how to be creative, but only destructive and develop downwards by obliterating depth and meaningful complexity from games he works on. And he's always avoided commenting on ZeniMax' business practices, saying he isn't involved in that stuff, he just focuses on making games - indicating he knows there's something rotten going on but wants to keep getting bags of money while ignoring any responsibility he has from being a willing party to that rottenness.

So, Todd liking the guy who gave him tons of money while Todd looked the other way concerning his actions isn't a strong testimonial to Altman's character.

Bethesda's games would probably also be a lot better if Todd hadn't working on them. That guy only seems to only know how to take things away from better game design until there's nothing special, quality, or meaningful remaining in the designs of the games he makes.
 

The Dutch Ghost

Arbiter
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
681
Bethesda's games would probably also be a lot better if Todd hadn't working on them. That guy only seems to only know how to take things away from better game design until there's nothing special, quality, or meaningful remaining in the designs of the games he makes.

I still think it is a group effort, and not just one or two persons absolutely unsuitable for creative work in games.
 

Testownia

Guest
So, Bethesda was founded by a person who wanted to use the company to help sick children and provide coordination for other publishers to give back to society, who was passionate about technology, and adamant about innovation. But it was stolen and taken-over by a devil, Robert Altman, who pioneered abusive industry practices, sued everyone in sight, stripped the company of innovation and ignored the importance of actual talent for making games, and reportedly never touched a game in his life.

Bethesda games over the past 17+ years would probably have been far better had Christopher Weaver not had his own company stolen from him by Robert Altman. Weaver, Bethesda / ZeniMax' Chief Technology Officer, was actually passionate about game-making, which was why he asked Altman to manage the financial side of the company while he focused on design aspects.

Robert Altman is undoubtedly a tragedy to have befallen Bethesda / ZeniMax and the games industry, and probably one of the worst things to have ever happened to the games industry.

todd seems to have truly liked the guy so who can say

I've never seen Todd as being regarded for having good sense. He speaks like a simpleton who thinks the most mundane, unspectacular, and often detrimental ideas are somehow revolutionary, and seems pretty clueless, to me. He's made every next Bethesda game more dumbed-down than the previous one, demonstrating himself to not actually know how to be creative, but only destructive and develop downwards by obliterating depth and meaningful complexity from games he works on. And he's always avoided commenting on ZeniMax' business practices, saying he isn't involved in that stuff, he just focuses on making games - indicating he knows there's something rotten going on but wants to keep getting bags of money while ignoring any responsibility he has from being a willing party to that rottenness.

So, Todd liking the guy who gave him tons of money while Todd looked the other way concerning his actions isn't a strong testimonial to Altman's character.

Bethesda's games would probably also be a lot better if Todd hadn't working on them. That guy only seems to only know how to take things away from better game design until there's nothing special, quality, or meaningful remaining in the designs of the games he makes.

Can you give a single, documented, example?
 
Self-Ejected

TheDiceMustRoll

Game Analist
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
761
So, Bethesda was founded by a person who wanted to use the company to help sick children and provide coordination for other publishers to give back to society, who was passionate about technology, and adamant about innovation. But it was stolen and taken-over by a devil, Robert Altman, who pioneered abusive industry practices, sued everyone in sight, stripped the company of innovation and ignored the importance of actual talent for making games, and reportedly never touched a game in his life.

Bethesda games over the past 17+ years would probably have been far better had Christopher Weaver not had his own company stolen from him by Robert Altman. Weaver, Bethesda / ZeniMax' Chief Technology Officer, was actually passionate about game-making, which was why he asked Altman to manage the financial side of the company while he focused on design aspects.

Robert Altman is undoubtedly a tragedy to have befallen Bethesda / ZeniMax and the games industry, and probably one of the worst things to have ever happened to the games industry.

todd seems to have truly liked the guy so who can say

I've never seen Todd as being regarded for having good sense. He speaks like a simpleton who thinks the most mundane, unspectacular, and often detrimental ideas are somehow revolutionary, and seems pretty clueless, to me. He's made every next Bethesda game more dumbed-down than the previous one, demonstrating himself to not actually know how to be creative, but only destructive and develop downwards by obliterating depth and meaningful complexity from games he works on. And he's always avoided commenting on ZeniMax' business practices, saying he isn't involved in that stuff, he just focuses on making games - indicating he knows there's something rotten going on but wants to keep getting bags of money while ignoring any responsibility he has from being a willing party to that rottenness.

So, Todd liking the guy who gave him tons of money while Todd looked the other way concerning his actions isn't a strong testimonial to Altman's character.

Bethesda's games would probably also be a lot better if Todd hadn't working on them. That guy only seems to only know how to take things away from better game design until there's nothing special, quality, or meaningful remaining in the designs of the games he makes.

It seems interesting to me that you think someone doesn't have integrity if they won't go "yeah the guy that signs my paychecks is a greedy piece of shit :)))"

Todd Howard:
- was a varsity athlete in high school
- directed morrowind, one of the most beloved RPGs on the Codex
- directed Oblivion, one of the best selling RPGs on Xbox 360
- directed Skyrim, the best selling RPG of all time
- saved the Fallout franchise from awful console spinoffs and obscurity with the best seller Fallout 3
- directed Fallout 4, the best selling fallout game of all time(30+million copies and counting)
- only ever plays a human male barbarian in DnD and other RPGs
- got you to buy Skyrim four times, laughed about it, and then released another version of Skyrim for the switch
- got Microsoft to buy Skyrim and the entire company
- basically responsible for putting serious RPGs on the consoles

You're mad that Todd Howard is a fucking shining Golden God on a hill.
Everyone who has ever tried to shit on Todd has ended up cursed. Nobody can make games the way Todd Howard can and every attempt has ended up being a disaster while Todd single-handedly funds Zenimax media's coffers.

Now kneel and respect the king.

lJ5qguX.jpg
 

Delicieuxz

Cipher
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
558
So, Bethesda was founded by a person who wanted to use the company to help sick children and provide coordination for other publishers to give back to society, who was passionate about technology, and adamant about innovation. But it was stolen and taken-over by a devil, Robert Altman, who pioneered abusive industry practices, sued everyone in sight, stripped the company of innovation and ignored the importance of actual talent for making games, and reportedly never touched a game in his life.

Bethesda games over the past 17+ years would probably have been far better had Christopher Weaver not had his own company stolen from him by Robert Altman. Weaver, Bethesda / ZeniMax' Chief Technology Officer, was actually passionate about game-making, which was why he asked Altman to manage the financial side of the company while he focused on design aspects.

Robert Altman is undoubtedly a tragedy to have befallen Bethesda / ZeniMax and the games industry, and probably one of the worst things to have ever happened to the games industry.

todd seems to have truly liked the guy so who can say

I've never seen Todd as being regarded for having good sense. He speaks like a simpleton who thinks the most mundane, unspectacular, and often detrimental ideas are somehow revolutionary, and seems pretty clueless, to me. He's made every next Bethesda game more dumbed-down than the previous one, demonstrating himself to not actually know how to be creative, but only destructive and develop downwards by obliterating depth and meaningful complexity from games he works on. And he's always avoided commenting on ZeniMax' business practices, saying he isn't involved in that stuff, he just focuses on making games - indicating he knows there's something rotten going on but wants to keep getting bags of money while ignoring any responsibility he has from being a willing party to that rottenness.

So, Todd liking the guy who gave him tons of money while Todd looked the other way concerning his actions isn't a strong testimonial to Altman's character.

Bethesda's games would probably also be a lot better if Todd hadn't working on them. That guy only seems to only know how to take things away from better game design until there's nothing special, quality, or meaningful remaining in the designs of the games he makes.

Can you give a single, documented, example?

I mentioned different things, so an example of what, in particular? But everything that I said is documented, even though I don't know offhand in which videos and interviews certain information can be found. If anyone knows where the things I mention below can be found, please post them.

Todd has been asked about ZeniMax's practices and lawsuits, and separated himself from them, saying that he isn't involved in any of that stuff and just makes games.

There's only one existing example of my claim that each next game Todd makes is more dumbed-down than the previous, just as there's only one history of games Todd has made. So, that's pretty easy to think of an example for: Morrowind -> Oblivion -> Fallout 3 -> Skyrim -> Fallout 4 -> Fallout '76.

The banality of his expressed ideas is present in his presentations of them. You can watch some videos of him talking about stuff. Listen to him explain how poignant he though Fallout 4's story setup was with the protagonist's imperative to find their son - which he ultimately admitted didn't work-out at all because upon leaving the vault, the player has a ton of other things to do and finding the son is put on the back-burner.

Elsewhere, he's explained his attraction to simplicity and how he thinks it's ingenuous to reduce the complexity things, like Skyrim's uninspired levelling system (or maybe its combat system, or Fallout 4's practically-not-even-serviceable inventory system) - which is actually the problem and extreme stupidity in Todd's game design and why the phrase "wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle" was coined to describe Bethesda games. They're far too simplistic to be satisfying, except maybe to LCD simpletons. And it's a simpleton's mind which feels relieved and dumbing-things down, because it can't support any notable degree of sophistication. Such a mind is clearly expressed through the designs of BGS games.

In one presentation where Todd was imparting his game design 'wisdom', he talked about a mobile game he was playing and showed how flashy and congratulatory the graphics are when a level is completed. Todd explains how pumped-up and good about himself that makes him feel, and that it gets him to play more, treating this like a design revelation. With the way Todd described things, I'm pretty sure a lot of the audience would have thought he must have been joking, given how simplistic that suggested he is, but I think he was being very sincere about it. If a person is actually affected by such things like that, they're a simpleton chasing after 'reward' sensations like a sociopath.

There's been Todd describing himself and the usual Bethesda writer, Emil Pagliarulo, high-fiving each-other over some dialogue that is worthy of a lamer Beavis and Butthead and which reduces the integrity of the game but Todd thinks it's awesome. Emil Pagliarulo's writing is consistently harebrained and cringily moronic, and it's among the very worst in the games industry. It's utterly broken all over the place, things don't connect and the writing simply doesn't work. It's just a bunch of disparate ideas placed next to each other, with the ideas not reasoned together into a coherent thing - which is why the setup for Fallout 4 didn't work and why Emil and Todd didn't notice that it didn't work before making an entire game around it. And it takes a clueless person at the helm to not realize and accept that their writing is greatly hindering the overall quality of the package, and finding someone a lot more competent to take the job.

The Blistering Stupidity of Fallout 3, Part 1
The Blistering Stupidity of Fallout 3, Part 2
The Blistering Stupidity of Fallout 3, Part 3
The Blistering Stupidity of Fallout 3, Part 4
The Blistering Stupidity of Fallout 3, Part 5

One of these series can be written for each game Emil Pagliarulo wrote. They're all moronic. And the only way I can figure people can stand them is that either they are morons themselves, or their minds are too turned-out and in a vegetative state to notice or by bothered by the painfully-idiotic writing they are being fed. So, Bethesda games appeal low-mental-complexity casuals.

You know what people can't work with complex information and so reduces and compartmentalizes everything into lowest-common-denominator determinations? Psychopaths and sociopaths. You know what people chase after 'reward' sensations and is completely enamoured by little colourful blinky dots of confetti on a screen telling them they completed a level in a mobile game? Psychopaths and sociopaths. Everything about Todd Howard's game design is about reducing things beyond a level that is enjoyable anymore, and creating dumb gratification tricks that don't work except on stupid people. Todd Howard and Emil Pagliarulo are sociopaths with basically no design talent or skill.


Is Todd Howard a good game developer?
EZrO8Kv.png









Enjoy Bethesda games all you like. I try to, too, every now and then - for the environments and with mods. But they're moronic and bland, far beneath their easily-graspable potential, and Todd Howard's design skills are those of a hack. And Emil Pagliarulo's writing is awful and broken, and in the manner it's been, probably shouldn't feature in any serious or professional production, let alone what's one of the industry's biggest productions, when there are other writers available.


So, Bethesda was founded by a person who wanted to use the company to help sick children and provide coordination for other publishers to give back to society, who was passionate about technology, and adamant about innovation. But it was stolen and taken-over by a devil, Robert Altman, who pioneered abusive industry practices, sued everyone in sight, stripped the company of innovation and ignored the importance of actual talent for making games, and reportedly never touched a game in his life.

Bethesda games over the past 17+ years would probably have been far better had Christopher Weaver not had his own company stolen from him by Robert Altman. Weaver, Bethesda / ZeniMax' Chief Technology Officer, was actually passionate about game-making, which was why he asked Altman to manage the financial side of the company while he focused on design aspects.

Robert Altman is undoubtedly a tragedy to have befallen Bethesda / ZeniMax and the games industry, and probably one of the worst things to have ever happened to the games industry.

todd seems to have truly liked the guy so who can say

I've never seen Todd as being regarded for having good sense. He speaks like a simpleton who thinks the most mundane, unspectacular, and often detrimental ideas are somehow revolutionary, and seems pretty clueless, to me. He's made every next Bethesda game more dumbed-down than the previous one, demonstrating himself to not actually know how to be creative, but only destructive and develop downwards by obliterating depth and meaningful complexity from games he works on. And he's always avoided commenting on ZeniMax' business practices, saying he isn't involved in that stuff, he just focuses on making games - indicating he knows there's something rotten going on but wants to keep getting bags of money while ignoring any responsibility he has from being a willing party to that rottenness.

So, Todd liking the guy who gave him tons of money while Todd looked the other way concerning his actions isn't a strong testimonial to Altman's character.

Bethesda's games would probably also be a lot better if Todd hadn't working on them. That guy only seems to only know how to take things away from better game design until there's nothing special, quality, or meaningful remaining in the designs of the games he makes.

It seems interesting to me that you think someone doesn't have integrity if they won't go "yeah the guy that signs my paychecks is a greedy piece of shit :)))"

Todd Howard:
- was a varsity athlete in high school
- directed morrowind, one of the most beloved RPGs on the Codex
- directed Oblivion, one of the best selling RPGs on Xbox 360
- directed Skyrim, the best selling RPG of all time
- saved the Fallout franchise from awful console spinoffs and obscurity with the best seller Fallout 3
- directed Fallout 4, the best selling fallout game of all time(30+million copies and counting)
- only ever plays a human male barbarian in DnD and other RPGs
- got you to buy Skyrim four times, laughed about it, and then released another version of Skyrim for the switch
- got Microsoft to buy Skyrim and the entire company
- basically responsible for putting serious RPGs on the consoles

Is this you also saying that Nickleback is one of the best rock bands of all time?

Nickelback - 50 million albums sold in 15 years
Rush - 40 million albums sold in 47 years

Did Todd even know about the deal with Microsoft before it happened - didn't he say the deal was a surprise to everyone at the studio and they were all hearing about it at the same time as the public?

Your response to my saying that Todd's a hack with no particularly demonstrated talent for making good games, which is a list of how much money he's made the company, makes the point: If there existed a list of creative or design-quality accomplishments, you'd have cited them, instead. But there doesn't exist such a list because everything in a Todd Howard game is maximum dumbed-down, to appeal to the lowest-common-denominator casual gamer. A Todd Howard game lets the player's imagination go wild. Actually, it requires the player's imagination to go wild because there's so little creativity and quality in the game itself that it can't much be enjoyed unless the player imagines that there's actually good writing, good quests, good combat, good animations, a good UI and menu system, good graphics, good character-building, etc.

Todd's made the company a lot of money. And he's a shit game designer who seems to only know how to reduce things into banality, and Bethesda games would probably have been far better if he hadn't worked on them.

And Oblivion and Skyrim aren't even RPGs, they're Action-Adventures, so they couldn't be "best selling" RPGs.
 
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Delicieuxz

Cipher
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
558
Robert Altman was a thug who reportedly never touched a game in his life and downplayed the importance of talent and emphasized that hard word beats talent. He was wrong, and his management has cultivated Bethesda into a largely-talentless studio - Todd Howard being emphatically included and exemplary of that comment.

When Todd and Altman became the major figures at Bethesda / ZeniMax, they inherited a ton of creative ideas, a golden IP, and a winning unique RPG format. And they rode on that for years, with each next game they made still being infused with the bursting potential of those things, but being worse than the previous game BGS (except for Fallout 3, which is worse than Skyrim and probably Fallout 4).

The diminishing quality of Bethesda's developmental skill from game to game, and why Bethesda has seemed to be further behind the rest of the industry with each next game they've put out, is because the influence and glow and ideas of the original talent that created the studio and the Bethesda game style have been waning, and we're more and more seeing the actual talent of today's BGS feature more prominently, more distanced from what they inherited, in each newer production.

The latter games in Bethesda's history are much more reflective of their actual talent than the earlier ones.

Bethesda is a C-grade studio with a ton of cash, and which happens to be in possession of some top-tier IPs.
 
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Testownia

Guest
So, Bethesda was founded by a person who wanted to use the company to help sick children and provide coordination for other publishers to give back to society, who was passionate about technology, and adamant about innovation. But it was stolen and taken-over by a devil, Robert Altman, who pioneered abusive industry practices, sued everyone in sight, stripped the company of innovation and ignored the importance of actual talent for making games, and reportedly never touched a game in his life.

Bethesda games over the past 17+ years would probably have been far better had Christopher Weaver not had his own company stolen from him by Robert Altman. Weaver, Bethesda / ZeniMax' Chief Technology Officer, was actually passionate about game-making, which was why he asked Altman to manage the financial side of the company while he focused on design aspects.

Robert Altman is undoubtedly a tragedy to have befallen Bethesda / ZeniMax and the games industry, and probably one of the worst things to have ever happened to the games industry.

todd seems to have truly liked the guy so who can say

I've never seen Todd as being regarded for having good sense. He speaks like a simpleton who thinks the most mundane, unspectacular, and often detrimental ideas are somehow revolutionary, and seems pretty clueless, to me. He's made every next Bethesda game more dumbed-down than the previous one, demonstrating himself to not actually know how to be creative, but only destructive and develop downwards by obliterating depth and meaningful complexity from games he works on. And he's always avoided commenting on ZeniMax' business practices, saying he isn't involved in that stuff, he just focuses on making games - indicating he knows there's something rotten going on but wants to keep getting bags of money while ignoring any responsibility he has from being a willing party to that rottenness.

So, Todd liking the guy who gave him tons of money while Todd looked the other way concerning his actions isn't a strong testimonial to Altman's character.

Bethesda's games would probably also be a lot better if Todd hadn't working on them. That guy only seems to only know how to take things away from better game design until there's nothing special, quality, or meaningful remaining in the designs of the games he makes.

Can you give a single, documented, example?

I mentioned different things, so an example of what, in particular? But everything that I said is documented, even though I don't know offhand in which videos and interviews certain information can be found. If anyone knows where the things I mention below can be found, please post them.

Todd has been asked about ZeniMax's practices and lawsuits, and separated himself from them, saying that he isn't involved in any of that stuff and just makes games.

There's only one existing example of my claim that each next game Todd makes is more dumbed-down than the previous, just as there's only one history of games Todd has made. So, that's pretty easy to think of an example for: Morrowind -> Oblivion -> Fallout 3 -> Skyrim -> Fallout 4 -> Fallout '76.

The banality of his expressed ideas is present in his presentations of them. You can watch some videos of him talking about stuff. Listen to him explain how poignant he though Fallout 4's story setup was with the protagonist's imperative to find their son - which he ultimately admitted didn't work-out at all because upon leaving the vault, the player has a ton of other things to do and finding the son is put on the back-burner.

Elsewhere, he's explained his attraction to simplicity and how he thinks it's ingenuous to reduce the complexity things, like Skyrim's uninspired levelling system (or maybe its combat system, or Fallout 4's practically-not-even-serviceable inventory system) - which is actually the problem and extreme stupidity in Todd's game design and why the phrase "wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle" was coined to describe Bethesda games. They're far too simplistic to be satisfying, except maybe to LCD simpletons. And it's a simpleton's mind which feels relieved and dumbing-things down, because it can't support any notable degree of sophistication. Such a mind is clearly expressed through the designs of BGS games.

In one presentation where Todd was imparting his game design 'wisdom', he talked about a mobile game he was playing and showed how flashy and congratulatory the graphics are when a level is completed. Todd explains how pumped-up and good about himself that makes him feel, and that it gets him to play more, treating this like a design revelation. With the way Todd described things, I'm pretty sure a lot of the audience would have thought he must have been joking, given how simplistic that suggested he is, but I think he was being very sincere about it. If a person is actually affected by such things like that, they're a simpleton chasing after 'reward' sensations like a sociopath.

There's been Todd describing himself and the usual Bethesda writer, Emil Pagliarulo, high-fiving each-other over some dialogue that is worthy of a lamer Beavis and Butthead and which reduces the integrity of the game but Todd thinks it's awesome. Emil Pagliarulo's writing is consistently harebrained and cringily moronic, and it's among the very worst in the games industry. It's utterly broken all over the place, things don't connect and the writing simply doesn't work. It's just a bunch of disparate ideas placed next to each other, with the ideas not reasoned together into a coherent thing - which is why the setup for Fallout 4. And it takes a clueless person at the helm to not realize and accept that their writing is greatly hindering the overall quality of the package, and finding someone a lot more competent to take the job.

The Blistering Stupidity of Fallout 3, Part 1
The Blistering Stupidity of Fallout 3, Part 2
The Blistering Stupidity of Fallout 3, Part 3
The Blistering Stupidity of Fallout 3, Part 4
The Blistering Stupidity of Fallout 3, Part 5

One of these series can be written for each game Emil Pagliarulo wrote. They're all moronic. And the only way I can figure people can stand them is that either they are morons themselves, or their minds are too turned-out and in a vegetative state to notice or by bothered by the painfully-idiotic writing they are being fed. So, Bethesda games appeal low-mental-complexity casuals.

You know what people can't work with complex information and so reduces and compartmentalizes everything into lowest-common-denominator determinations? Psychopaths and sociopaths. You know what people chase after 'reward' sensations and is completely enamoured by little colourful blinky dots of confetti on a screen telling them they completed a level in a mobile game? Psychopaths and sociopaths. Everything about Todd Howard's game design is about reducing things beyond a level that is enjoyable anymore, and creating dumb gratification tricks that don't work except on stupid people. Todd Howard and Emil Pagliarulo are sociopaths with basically no design talent or skill.


Is Todd Howard a good game developer?
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Enjoy Bethesda games all you like. I try to, too, every now and then - for the environments and with mods. But they're moronic and bland, far beneath their easily-graspable potential, and Todd Howard's design skills are those of a hack. And Emil Pagliarulo's writing is awful and broken, and in the manner it's been, probably shouldn't feature in any serious or professional production, let alone what's one of the industry's biggest productions, when there are other writers available.


So, Bethesda was founded by a person who wanted to use the company to help sick children and provide coordination for other publishers to give back to society, who was passionate about technology, and adamant about innovation. But it was stolen and taken-over by a devil, Robert Altman, who pioneered abusive industry practices, sued everyone in sight, stripped the company of innovation and ignored the importance of actual talent for making games, and reportedly never touched a game in his life.

Bethesda games over the past 17+ years would probably have been far better had Christopher Weaver not had his own company stolen from him by Robert Altman. Weaver, Bethesda / ZeniMax' Chief Technology Officer, was actually passionate about game-making, which was why he asked Altman to manage the financial side of the company while he focused on design aspects.

Robert Altman is undoubtedly a tragedy to have befallen Bethesda / ZeniMax and the games industry, and probably one of the worst things to have ever happened to the games industry.

todd seems to have truly liked the guy so who can say

I've never seen Todd as being regarded for having good sense. He speaks like a simpleton who thinks the most mundane, unspectacular, and often detrimental ideas are somehow revolutionary, and seems pretty clueless, to me. He's made every next Bethesda game more dumbed-down than the previous one, demonstrating himself to not actually know how to be creative, but only destructive and develop downwards by obliterating depth and meaningful complexity from games he works on. And he's always avoided commenting on ZeniMax' business practices, saying he isn't involved in that stuff, he just focuses on making games - indicating he knows there's something rotten going on but wants to keep getting bags of money while ignoring any responsibility he has from being a willing party to that rottenness.

So, Todd liking the guy who gave him tons of money while Todd looked the other way concerning his actions isn't a strong testimonial to Altman's character.

Bethesda's games would probably also be a lot better if Todd hadn't working on them. That guy only seems to only know how to take things away from better game design until there's nothing special, quality, or meaningful remaining in the designs of the games he makes.

It seems interesting to me that you think someone doesn't have integrity if they won't go "yeah the guy that signs my paychecks is a greedy piece of shit :)))"

Todd Howard:
- was a varsity athlete in high school
- directed morrowind, one of the most beloved RPGs on the Codex
- directed Oblivion, one of the best selling RPGs on Xbox 360
- directed Skyrim, the best selling RPG of all time
- saved the Fallout franchise from awful console spinoffs and obscurity with the best seller Fallout 3
- directed Fallout 4, the best selling fallout game of all time(30+million copies and counting)
- only ever plays a human male barbarian in DnD and other RPGs
- got you to buy Skyrim four times, laughed about it, and then released another version of Skyrim for the switch
- got Microsoft to buy Skyrim and the entire company
- basically responsible for putting serious RPGs on the consoles

Is this you also saying that Nickleback is one of the best rock bands of all time?

Nickelback - 50 million albums sold in 15 years
Rush - 40 million albums sold in 47 years

Did Todd even know about the deal with Microsoft before it happened - didn't he say the deal was a surprise to everyone at the studio and they were all hearing about it at the same time as the public?

Your response to my saying that Todd's a hack with no particularly demonstrated talent for making good games, which is a list of how much money he's made the company, makes the point: If there existed a list of creative or design-quality accomplishments, you'd have cited them, instead. But there doesn't exist such a list because everything in a Todd Howard game is maximum dumbed-down, to appeal to the lowest-common-denominator casual gamer. A Todd Howard game lets the player's imagination go wild. Actually, it requires the player's imagination to go wild because there's so little creativity and quality in the game itself that it can't much be enjoyed unless the player imagines that there's actually good writing, good quests, good combat, good animations, a good UI and menu system, good graphics, good character-building, etc.

Todd's made the company a lot of money. And he's a shit game designer who seems to only know how to reduce things into banality, and Bethesda games would probably have been far better if he hadn't worked on them.

And Oblivion and Skyrim aren't even RPGs, they're Action-Adventures, so they couldn't be "best selling" RPGs.

First, you seethe for far, far too long, and then link me to fucking YouTube videos regurgitating the same undocumented allegations as you, plus a retarded poll. Every single story, movie, novel and game can be deconstructed into a mess of "illogical", "contrived", and "stupid" plot points and characters given enough time, nitpicks, and autism. No exceptions, literally none.

By the way, The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard, the Elder Scrolls game with the best written story, was a child of Todd Howard.
 
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Delicieuxz

Cipher
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
558
First, you seethe for far, far too long, and then link me to fucking YouTube videos regurgitating the same undocumented allegations as you, plus a retarded poll. Every single story, movie, novel and game can be deconstructed into a mess of "illogical", "contrived", and "stupid" plot points and characters given enough time, nitpicks, and autism. No exceptions, literally none.

By the way, The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard, the Elder Scrolls game with the best written story, was a child of Todd Howard.

You asked for just one example, but you received many. Now you whine and misrepresent the response you got because BGS is your security blanket and you've just had it revealed to you that it's been covered in shit the whole while you've been sucking on it. I know the fragility of the audience that Toddler's Fisher-Price games target, but c'mon.
 
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Testownia

Guest
First, you seethe for far, far too long, and then link me to fucking YouTube videos regurgitating the same undocumented allegations as you, plus a retarded poll. Every single story, movie, novel and game can be deconstructed into a mess of "illogical", "contrived", and "stupid" plot points and characters given enough time, nitpicks, and autism. No exceptions, literally none.

By the way, The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard, the Elder Scrolls game with the best written story, was a child of Todd Howard.

You asked for just one example, but you received many. Now you whine and misrepresent the response you got because BGS is your security blanket and you've just had it revealed to you that it's been covered in shit the whole while you've been sucking on it. I know the fragility of the audience that Toddler's Fisher-Price games target, but c'mon.

A YouTube video isn't a documented evidence, just a bunch of grifters echoing the same handful of points ad nauseam. Design documents, designer interviews, financial reports - those are "documented evidence", not "SuperBunnyHop explaining the same 10 bland reasons why Morrowind is great as every other grifter on the platform."
 
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Delicieuxz

Cipher
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
558
First, you seethe for far, far too long, and then link me to fucking YouTube videos regurgitating the same undocumented allegations as you, plus a retarded poll. Every single story, movie, novel and game can be deconstructed into a mess of "illogical", "contrived", and "stupid" plot points and characters given enough time, nitpicks, and autism. No exceptions, literally none.

By the way, The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard, the Elder Scrolls game with the best written story, was a child of Todd Howard.

You asked for just one example, but you received many. Now you whine and misrepresent the response you got because BGS is your security blanket and you've just had it revealed to you that it's been covered in shit the whole while you've been sucking on it. I know the fragility of the audience that Toddler's Fisher-Price games target, but c'mon.

A YouTube video isn't a documented evidence, just a bunch of grifters echoing the same handful of points ad nauseam. Design documents, designer interviews, financial reports - those are "documented evidence", not "SuperBunnyHop explaining the same 10 bland reasons why Morrowind is great as every other grifter on the platform."

What do any of the YouTube videos I included in my post have to do with all of the examples I gave you? Nothing. If all you've got is playing dumb, then you don't have anything.
 
Self-Ejected

TheDiceMustRoll

Game Analist
Joined
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Messages
761
okay

first off:

i havent watched most of those videos, but I have seen the ShittyBunnpHop one, and it sucks. He describes Skyrim as boring and praises Morrowind because it used the "pretend to be a guy WHOA MAYBE THATS HOW THE PROPHECY WORKS" idea which has been used time and time again in all forms of fiction, and honestly was more entertaining when it was Monty Python's Life of Brian, which had a sense of humor about it. There's so many novels and films about the King Arthur legend where "actually no magic, Merlin was good at smoke and mirrors" is a major plot point.

Morrowind's main quest outside of a few small levels is you walking to a place, talking to someone, then going back and talking to someone else. Skyrim at least tries.

On top of that he clearly didn't use his own footage for Morrowind (unless George likes to name himself after other youtubers in his footage...for some reason) and its heavily modded footage meant to look better than Vanilla morrowind does.

I highly doubt this dude even played Morrowind.

Robert Altman was a thug who reportedly never touched a game in his life and downplayed the importance of talent and emphasized that hard word beats talent.

Anyone who thinks "talent" exists is stupid, anyone who is good at anything is good at it because they worked hard at it. Altman is 100% correct at this. Talent is what boomer Californians call their kids because don't understand technology so they're wowed by their kids hitting the "record the last 15 minutes of gameplay" button on their NVidia Shadowplay.


Name one RPG that:
- tried to do a Bethesda style rpg
- has the scale of a Bethesda RPG
- had fewer bugs at launch
- was as well received
- sold as well

The answer is zero. The closest is Kingdom Come: Deliverance, which was less stable than New Vegas at launch and required retardo hardware to work really well. It also didn't sell nearly as well, wasn't received nearly as well, and was much smaller in scale regardless.

Cyberpunk tried and failed to marry Bethesda and Far Cry into something new.
The Outer Worlds was almost entirely devoid of content and completely devoid of a single likeable character or interesting quest.
 

Testownia

Guest
okay

first off:

i havent watched most of those videos, but I have seen the ShittyBunnpHop one, and it sucks. He describes Skyrim as boring and praises Morrowind because it used the "pretend to be a guy WHOA MAYBE THATS HOW THE PROPHECY WORKS" idea which has been used time and time again in all forms of fiction, and honestly was more entertaining when it was Monty Python's Life of Brian, which had a sense of humor about it. There's so many novels and films about the King Arthur legend where "actually no magic, Merlin was good at smoke and mirrors" is a major plot point.

Morrowind's main quest outside of a few small levels is you walking to a place, talking to someone, then going back and talking to someone else. Skyrim at least tries.

On top of that he clearly didn't use his own footage for Morrowind (unless George likes to name himself after other youtubers in his footage...for some reason) and its heavily modded footage meant to look better than Vanilla morrowind does.

I highly doubt this dude even played Morrowind.

Robert Altman was a thug who reportedly never touched a game in his life and downplayed the importance of talent and emphasized that hard word beats talent.

Anyone who thinks "talent" exists is stupid, anyone who is good at anything is good at it because they worked hard at it. Altman is 100% correct at this. Talent is what boomer Californians call their kids because don't understand technology so they're wowed by their kids hitting the "record the last 15 minutes of gameplay" button on their NVidia Shadowplay.


Name one RPG that:
- tried to do a Bethesda style rpg
- has the scale of a Bethesda RPG
- had fewer bugs at launch
- was as well received
- sold as well

The answer is zero. The closest is Kingdom Come: Deliverance, which was less stable than New Vegas at launch and required retardo hardware to work really well. It also didn't sell nearly as well, wasn't received nearly as well, and was much smaller in scale regardless.

Cyberpunk tried and failed to marry Bethesda and Far Cry into something new.
The Outer Worlds was almost entirely devoid of content and completely devoid of a single likeable character or interesting quest.

People shat on Todd Howard and Josh Sawyer relentlessly, all the while licking the anus of the likes of Chris Avellone or Tim Cain.

Now try and compare their games. We have "Outer Worlds" for Cain, and... nothing for Avellone in the last 15 years. Poor Chris is (or rather - was) the Chris Roberts of the RPG genre.
 

Delicieuxz

Cipher
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
558
This example I mentioned in my large post:
In one presentation where Todd was imparting his game design 'wisdom', he talked about a mobile game he was playing and showed how flashy and congratulatory the graphics are when a level is completed. Todd explains how pumped-up and good about himself that makes him feel, and that it gets him to play more, treating this like a design revelation. With the way Todd described things, I'm pretty sure a lot of the audience would have thought he must have been joking, given how simplistic that suggested he is, but I think he was being very sincere about it. If a person is actually affected by such things like that, they're a simpleton chasing after 'reward' sensations like a sociopath.

The source for it is here: https://youtu.be/WJmYoPUr85U?t=2236

There, Todd is talking about feeling pride in gaming.

Todd says that his favourite ego-stroking design to make players feel great is that of completing a level of Peggle. And then he plays a clip of the level-passed celebration in Peggle, and then expresses how it makes him feel from a player's perspective. My reaction to hearing that was 'you can't be serious' because that's so mindless. But he was serious.

He doesn't give examples of esteem coming from something the player actually did, overcame, built, or figured-out, or some meaningful reactivity to the player's personal unsolicited decision in a game environment, but from an artificial trigger that will manipulate only simpletons who take esteem in things that aren't real. I think that says something about Todd, and that it also explains some things about BGS game design.

How low a level of comprehension of one's environment is required to be manipulated by that, and to a significant degree, and to see striving for a shallow gimmick as positive game design? And what in BGS games does Todd regard as his implementation of that design mechanism - A clunky fight with a dragon that is mostly just bashing it head-on, without strategy or skill?


Here's another example of what I said from that video, which I didn't mention before:

qSAJF2D.png


Todd says it's the #1 rule at BGS. But it's a nonsensical slogan. A great game has to be made before it can be played. And I can't figure-out how that slogan would have some revelatory meaning to it.

And before a game is made to be played, the idea has to be there. So, creativity has to be there first. And when playing a game you're making to test things out, and coming-up with new ideas while doing that, the new ideas are had and implemented (AKA they're made) before they're played within the game.

Great games are made, and then they're played. So, "Great games are played, not made" isn't a truth, but is missing understanding of a major part of the equation for a great game - and great things aren't made from falsehoods. It seems like pretending something that is dumb is profound - which is what I hear in a lot of what Todd says, hence I previously said: "He speaks like a simpleton who thinks the most mundane, unspectacular, and often detrimental ideas are somehow revolutionary, and seems pretty clueless, to me".


I was asked to give "a single, documented, example", without specification as to what the example should be of, after I had just mentioned a few different things. But I then gave many examples for things - just not the sources for them, as I haven't catalogued in which presentation or interview Todd said a particular thing. Now I've given a couple examples with the sources for them, exceeding the requested quota by 100%.


I'm surprised that the stupidities in Bethesda's designs need pointing-out, because... how are they not just obvious to people? I think that, for whatever reason, BGS games are the safe-spaces for a lot of people, and criticizing the things that are there to be criticized about them can be taken personally.

When playing an Obsidian game, is what the game is telling the player, the thoughts, ideas, personalities, situations, presented to them, do they seem patently absurd, unintelligent, contradictory, and just all-around cringily stupid? They don't to me. The same goes for most any other game I've played. But they do to me in a Bethesda game, which I feel have a stupid / lobotomized sense to them.

Like is laid-out in this 5-part analysis of the "blistering stupidity" of Fallout 3's writing: https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27085

I couldn't bear playing Fallout 3 when it released and was new. And I don't get how the stupidity of it all doesn't jump-out at other people when they're playing it and how they can miss that everything doesn't work and play through it and think at the end that they'd played a continuous and coherent experience rather than a disparate janky mess of contradictory and loopy ideas that don't add-up and that disqualify each-other. And that those ideas put together the way they are consequently don't allow for suspension of disbelief, but ruin the ability to be immersed in the world and story.

I don't think it's possible for someone, Todd, or anyone, to be a notably smart person and have all that stuff fly under the radar for years while making a game, and then for many more years when making the next game, repeating over and over.
 
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
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Messages
14,183
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I think it means down with theorycrafting. When Owlcat introduce new classes and features that never work from the get go and take a year and a half to fix something simple that anyone who plays the Ranger class would catch immediately you know that they spend more time making than playing.
 

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