Decline BG1EE might as well be a different game

[Butter]

They should've used Wizardry-esque phased combat if they were trying to emulate tabletop as closely as possible.

 

[MajorMace]

They didn't want to emulate table-top. They wanted to make an appealing video game. And RTS were very appealing back then.

 

[laclongquan]

I see you PnP nerds are trying to draw attention to your PnP systems and mechanisms. Again.

I see that and I raise a bomb: It doesnt matter. Specifically, PnP system, mechanisms, and experiences, dont matter to a computer game. We judge a computer game with its developed system on its own, not by PnP.

With that dismissal in mind, Let's go back to the point and agree that EE is an abomination.

1. Faster movement speed -
2. Equipment "QoL" - can equip a bow during the same time you have a two handed weapon equipped, or a shield.
3. Paused inventory screen - it was obviously intended behavior to have the game be un-paused when you manage inventory, hence why the game tells you that you're no longer paused when you open the inventory.
4. Collision changes - for whatever dumb reason, beamdog decided to make it so units can more easily pass one another and into tight corridors, including large enemies.

All are shits. SHITS! This just make combat easier for the noobs, is all. They are the 4 reasons why you should use total conversion mod to play BG1 in BG2 engine instead of suffering EE.

And before you whine SCS, let me remind you that the 4 reasons showcase very clearly the mindset of devs: cater to the dumbs. With that, if SCS can work to its intended tactical difficulty in EE is a huge question mark. Specically I dont trust the devs to let SCS work as designed. if they say it does, pure marketing and empty promise to the loud audience.

 

[Ladonna]

I already came to this conclusion with BG TuTu, and quickly uninstalled it. I never bothered with the EE's for any of the games after this.

You just play OG BG then?

Yeah. The BG2 engine turns it into a different game. I prefer just playing it as is. The BG2 engine also tends to play havoc with the soundscape and other bits and pieces on top of the gameplay changes that I don't like, and probably in contrast to most other people, I am not really a fan of the extra classes and kits they try to shoe horn into the original campaign.

 

[cretin]

Anyway we sort of hijacked cretin's thread. cretin, if you object, tell us all to fuck off, and we'll... probably ignore you.

digressions into tangents and sperg arguments are a natural and treasured part of the codex, I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Kruno]

cater to the dumbs.

we, the morons of society, are the ones who spend money. why should corporations cater to non-payers, or even the marginal purchasers?

 

[Crispy]

Codex is full of 60 year olds with shit taste so fk off

And this particular "60-year old with shit taste" is engaged in and contributing to a rather interesting conversation about comparing BG's real-time combat to AD&D 2E PnP combat.

What are you doing?

 

[laclongquan]

cater to the dumbs.

we, the morons of society, are the ones who spend money. why should corporations cater to non-payers, or even the marginal purchasers?

Technically, the dumbs are free to demand and devs are free to satisfy that demand.

This here is a free society, after all.

And logically, we here at Codex are free to sneer upon the dumbs and their dumb-catering game devs. Especially whenever they are thinking they have the right to prance around here without getting some sneering remarks thrown their way.

Dawgs, we are here at Codex, the biggest hive of scums and villainies on Net. We are the hoard of glittering gems of hatred.

Just because we dont burn some dumbasses recently here doesnt mean we have changed.

Codex's nature never change.

 

[Kruno]

cater to the dumbs.

we, the morons of society, are the ones who spend money. why should corporations cater to non-payers, or even the marginal purchasers?

Technically, the dumbs are free to demand and devs are free to satisfy that demand.

This here is a free society, after all.

And logically, we here at Codex are free to sneer upon the dumbs and their dumb-catering game devs. Especially whenever they are thinking they have the right to prance around here without getting some sneering remarks thrown their way.

Dawgs, we are here at Codex, the biggest hive of scums and villainies on Net. We are the hoard of glittering gems of hatred.

Just because we dont burn some dumbasses recently here doesnt mean we have changed.

Codex's nature never change.

i loved Dragon Age 2, I felt that it was so good it superseded the 2nd coming of Christ. Games like that sell, regardless of how potato a buyer's IQ is. Devs make games to make money, which is why Ubisoft, EA, ActiBlizz, etc... all make formulaic games which have no soul. This is what the majority want, and if you want your high IQ games you will have to look into the cracks of Steam and Itch and pray that they exist in the shadows. Gaming is now run by MBAs and accountants and doesn't cater to those who can think or those who want enjoyment.

The golden days of gaming existed because developers wanted to let their imaginations run wild. Look at Doom, and why it existed. Doom came from the role playing aspects of D&D in which John Carmack and co. played, and gave them ideas to implement in their game. Richard Garriot was much the same, as was the Wizardry, and M&M games. No such imaginations exists today, which is also why so many game devs had a spastic attack against Elden Ring, because it defied common expectations of being formulaic, cheap, and hand holdy, aka baby's first game. When all the major publishes die and when/if/hopefully gaming becomes a niche again we might see the cream rise to the top again. We can hope and pray for another Atari era like crash.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Reminder that Gary Gygax transformed the one-minute turns of Chainmail Rules for Miniatures into a one-minute combat round (not to be confused with the ten-minute turn) of Dungeons & Dragons, even though this didn't make sense for the smaller-scale less-abstract combat of D&D, kept the one-minute combat round for Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, and this one-minute combat round was maintained in AD&D 2nd edition even after having been reduced to ten seconds for 1977 Holmes D&D, 1981 B/X D&D, and 1983 BECMI D&D.

Combat in AD&D is not hectic.

 

[Morgoth]

When it comes to the BG EE's in particular, I didn't mind the supposed QoL changes, but I can respect the OP's attitude towards purity. I'm like that for example when it comes to Deus Ex. GMDX, Revision, etc. All verboten and haram. Pure DX is best DX.

 

[wishbonetail]

They nerfed Algernon's cloak. This is unforgivable.

 

[sosmoflux]

If D&D was intended to be simultaneous you'd be able to clash swords because you attacked at the same time, but you can only defend against attacks

 

[Chippy]

4. Collision changes - for whatever dumb reason, beamdog decided to make it so units can more easily pass one another and into tight corridors, including large enemies. Perhaps they think it is a "cheese" to be able to use the terrain to block off enemies, but it isn't - even in BG1's wilderness maps, there are many chokepoints in the terrain you can use to your advantage against hordes, and I would argue that this is intended. It is also in general just easier for any enemy to simply walk through your frontliners to get to your squishies, for you to your enemy's squishies. The changes here make valid tactics much less effective, formations less relevant, and make BG1's benny hill moments even more frequent, as well as exacerbating noted problems with IE combat.

Lilura was right all along, and at this point I think the only reason to use the EE is because you want to play with SCS.

I haven't played the EE in years. So they did this? Like in the Firewine Ruins a kobold can squeeze past your frontliner to get a shot off at your retreating mage as they try to break line of sight?. I expect this would break the game as they started messing with enemy aggro and that kobold just went kamikaze for your mage.

Add this behaviour to the enemies zeroing in on your party from across the map when they've spotted your stealth character, and you've pretty much ruined everything.

If true, this is what happens when you let autistic, spastic modders become developers. What you end up with is "This is how we want battles to play out for maximum challenge vs cheese per battle" vs the original kind of roleplaying variety of the game where you could tackle each battle with a enjoyable variety of spells instead of mawr powuh gaming autism. As required within the majority of BG modding within that community. Years ago anyway.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

this is what happens when you let autistic, spastic modders become developers

Well, people from the modding scene were "advisors" to Beamdog. Beamdog pretty much slapped a bunch of mods to BG and called it an "enhanced edition". Icewind Dale got the same treatment, but in the case of that game it's kind of a shittier thing because, yeah, you don't have beamdog content on it, but they did apply bg2's rules, spells, kits and classes to it. Which means you're not constrained by the og's reasonable limitations. You can pick up a sorcerer at the beginning, for instance. Items were reworked too and spell books expanded.

NWN did better as an EE, and frankly it was the only game that would really benefit from such treatment.

 

[NecroLord]

Really? What gave it away? The tranny in Siege of Dragonspear who exists solely to divulge to you her confusion relating to her gender?

On a more serious note, just mod the original Baldur's Gate however you want. On GOG you have to buy the EE in order to have access to the originals. This is an absolutely douchebaggy move, utterly despicable. Fuck you Beamdog. You did not make Baldur's Gate and the other Infinity Engine games.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Really? What gave it away? The tranny in Siege of Dragonspear who exists solely to divulge to you her confusion relating to her gender?

I think the interaction was much more forced on the player at launch, now the character just stands there in the background and only starts talking about it when asked.

 

[The Limper]

If D&D was intended to be simultaneous you'd be able to clash swords because you attacked at the same time, but you can only defend against attacks

I must say that adding weapons clashing animation would of been a worthy EE upgrade.

 

[The Limper]

this is what happens when you let autistic, spastic modders become developers

Well, people from the modding scene were "advisors" to Beamdog. Beamdog pretty much slapped a bunch of mods to BG and called it an "enhanced edition". Icewind Dale got the same treatment, but in the case of that game it's kind of a shittier thing because, yeah, you don't have beamdog content on it, but they did apply bg2's rules, spells, kits and classes to it. Which means you're not constrained by the og's reasonable limitations. You can pick up a sorcerer at the beginning, for instance. Items were reworked too and spell books expanded.

NWN did better as an EE, and frankly it was the only game that would really benefit from such treatment.

EE Definitely ruined Icewind Dale. Made it way too easy….Though some of the kits were fitting at least. The Barbarian and Shaman didn’t break anything and were perfect for the setting.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

"Within a combat round, there is a set series of steps that must be followed. These steps are:
1. The DM decides what actions the monsters or NPCs will take, including casting spells (if any).
2 The players indicate what their characters will do, including casting spells (if any).
3. Initiative is determined.
4 Attacks are made in order of initiative...
"Next, the players give a general indication of what their characters are planning to do. This does not have to be perfectly precise and can be changed somewhat, if the DM decides that circumstances warrant.
If the characters are battling goblins, a player can say, 'My fighter will attack' without having to announce which goblin he will strike...
"In the third step, dice are rolled to determine initiative, according to the rules for initiative..."
"Here's an example of the combat sequence in action: Rath is leading a party through the corridors of a dungeon. Right behind him are Rupert and Delsenora. Rounding a bend, they see a group of orcs and trolls about 20 feet away... The DM asks, 'What are you going to do?'
Harry (playing Rath, a dwarf who hates orcs): 'Orcs? - CHARGE!'
Anne (playing Delsenora the Mage): 'Uh- what!? Wait - don't do that... I was going to... now I can't use a fireball.'
DM: 'Rath is charging forward. Quick - what are you doing?'
Jon (playing Rupert, the half-elf, to Anne) "Cast a spell! (To DM) Can I fire my bow over him?'
DM: 'Sure, he's short.'
Jon: 'OK, I'll shoot at orcs.'
DM: 'Anne, tell me what Delsenora's doing or she'll lose the round trying to make up her mind!'
Anne: 'Got it! - Acid arrow spell at the lead troll.'
DM: 'Fine. Harry, Rath is in front. Roll for initiative.'" (Page 54, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition Dungeon Master Guide).
"Initiative is normally determined with a single roll for each side in a conflict. This tells whether all the members of the group get to act before or after those of the other side(s). There are also two optional methods that can be used to determine initiative. Each of these optional methods breaks the group action down into more individual initiatives. However, the general method of determining initiative remains the same in all cases" (Page 55, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition Dungeon Master Guide).
"To determine the initiative order for a round of combat, roll 1d10 for each side in the battle... If both (or all) sides roll the same number for initiative, everything happens simultaneously - all attack rolls, damage, spells, and other actions are completed before any results are applied. It is possible for a mage to be slain by goblins who collapse from his sleep spell at the end of the round" (Page 55, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition Dungeon Master Guide).
"Individual Initiative
(Optional Rule)
This method of determining initiative is the same as that given earlier, except that each PC, NPC, and monster involved in the fight rolls and then modifies his own initiative roll. This gives combat a more realistic feel, but at the expense of quick play. To players, it may not seem like too much for each to roll a separate initiative die, but consider the difficulties: Imagine a combat between six player characters (each controlled by a player) and five hirelings and henchmen against 16 hobgoblins and five ogres (all of which must be rolled by the DM). Furthermore, each die roll must be modified according to each individual's actions. The resulting rolls make every combat round a major calculation. This method is not recommended for large-scale combats. It is best used with small battles in which characters on the same side have vastly different speeds (Page 56, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition Dungeon Master Guide) *Bold added for emphasis.

 

[Serus]

I see you PnP nerds are trying to draw attention to your PnP systems and mechanisms. Again.

I see that and I raise a bomb: It doesnt matter. Specifically, PnP system, mechanisms, and experiences, dont matter to a computer game. We judge a computer game with its developed system on its own, not by PnP.

With that dismissal in mind, Let's go back to the point and agree that EE is an abomination.

1. Faster movement speed -
2. Equipment "QoL" - can equip a bow during the same time you have a two handed weapon equipped, or a shield.
3. Paused inventory screen - it was obviously intended behavior to have the game be un-paused when you manage inventory, hence why the game tells you that you're no longer paused when you open the inventory.
4. Collision changes - for whatever dumb reason, beamdog decided to make it so units can more easily pass one another and into tight corridors, including large enemies.

All are shits. SHITS! This just make combat easier for the noobs, is all. They are the 4 reasons why you should use total conversion mod to play BG1 in BG2 engine instead of suffering EE.

And before you whine SCS, let me remind you that the 4 reasons showcase very clearly the mindset of devs: cater to the dumbs. With that, if SCS can work to its intended tactical difficulty in EE is a huge question mark. Specically I dont trust the devs to let SCS work as designed. if they say it does, pure marketing and empty promise to the loud audience.

Your claim would be correct when talking about a system made from scratch specifically for the game in question. But when you put a D&D logo on the box and advertise it as "a d&d computer game" then yes, pnp rules have meaning. Otherwise the D&D sticker doesn't mean anything at all (yep even setting is not called "d&d"). It is developers trying to deceive the buyers. Which is common but it doesn't mean that it is good or that we should like it. Nota bene the practice existed for a long time but at least games like Eye of the Beholder didn't insist on being pnp-like experience as much as infinity games were portrayed. And even then it was a questionable practice.

For the record, I agree that (pnp) rpgs are completely different animal from (computer) rpgs. This why i'm pefering original game systems made for crpgs. However if you intend of using pnp one - then use it. Otherwise there is no point. Forgotten Realms is banal-shit-boring as fantasy setting can be. Sorry, forgot Golarion.

 

[Ladonna]

"Within a combat round, there is a set series of steps that must be followed. These steps are:
1. The DM decides what actions the monsters or NPCs will take, including casting spells (if any).
2 The players indicate what their characters will do, including casting spells (if any).
3. Initiative is determined.
4 Attacks are made in order of initiative...
"Next, the players give a general indication of what their characters are planning to do. This does not have to be perfectly precise and can be changed somewhat, if the DM decides that circumstances warrant.
If the characters are battling goblins, a player can say, 'My fighter will attack' without having to announce which goblin he will strike...
"In the third step, dice are rolled to determine initiative, according to the rules for initiative..."
"Here's an example of the combat sequence in action: Rath is leading a party through the corridors of a dungeon. Right behind him are Rupert and Delsenora. Rounding a bend, they see a group of orcs and trolls about 20 feet away... The DM asks, 'What are you going to do?'
Harry (playing Rath, a dwarf who hates orcs): 'Orcs? - CHARGE!'
Anne (playing Delsenora the Mage): 'Uh- what!? Wait - don't do that... I was going to... now I can't use a fireball.'
DM: 'Rath is charging forward. Quick - what are you doing?'
Jon (playing Rupert, the half-elf, to Anne) "Cast a spell! (To DM) Can I fire my bow over him?'
DM: 'Sure, he's short.'
Jon: 'OK, I'll shoot at orcs.'
DM: 'Anne, tell me what Delsenora's doing or she'll lose the round trying to make up her mind!'
Anne: 'Got it! - Acid arrow spell at the lead troll.'
DM: 'Fine. Harry, Rath is in front. Roll for initiative.'" (Page 54, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition Dungeon Master Guide).
"Initiative is normally determined with a single roll for each side in a conflict. This tells whether all the members of the group get to act before or after those of the other side(s). There are also two optional methods that can be used to determine initiative. Each of these optional methods breaks the group action down into more individual initiatives. However, the general method of determining initiative remains the same in all cases" (Page 55, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition Dungeon Master Guide).
"To determine the initiative order for a round of combat, roll 1d10 for each side in the battle... If both (or all) sides roll the same number for initiative, everything happens simultaneously - all attack rolls, damage, spells, and other actions are completed before any results are applied. It is possible for a mage to be slain by goblins who collapse from his sleep spell at the end of the round" (Page 55, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition Dungeon Master Guide).
"Individual Initiative
(Optional Rule)
This method of determining initiative is the same as that given earlier, except that each PC, NPC, and monster involved in the fight rolls and then modifies his own initiative roll. This gives combat a more realistic feel, but at the expense of quick play. To players, it may not seem like too much for each to roll a separate initiative die, but consider the difficulties: Imagine a combat between six player characters (each controlled by a player) and five hirelings and henchmen against 16 hobgoblins and five ogres (all of which must be rolled by the DM). Furthermore, each die roll must be modified according to each individual's actions. The resulting rolls make every combat round a major calculation. This method is not recommended for large-scale combats. It is best used with small battles in which characters on the same side have vastly different speeds (Page 56, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition Dungeon Master Guide) *Bold added for emphasis.

Original Mangar please. This is a thread about game purity.

 

[Squidhead]

I like scrolling my mouse wheel to zoom. Cloud saves are nice too.

 

[Camel]

I must say that adding weapons clashing animation would of been a worthy EE upgrade.

Swords and lightsabers clashing animations exist both in NWN and Kotor. So it’s totally possible in a RTwP engine.

 

[laclongquan]

I see you PnP nerds are trying to draw attention to your PnP systems and mechanisms. Again.

I see that and I raise a bomb: It doesnt matter. Specifically, PnP system, mechanisms, and experiences, dont matter to a computer game. We judge a computer game with its developed system on its own, not by PnP.

With that dismissal in mind, Let's go back to the point and agree that EE is an abomination.

1. Faster movement speed -
2. Equipment "QoL" - can equip a bow during the same time you have a two handed weapon equipped, or a shield.
3. Paused inventory screen - it was obviously intended behavior to have the game be un-paused when you manage inventory, hence why the game tells you that you're no longer paused when you open the inventory.
4. Collision changes - for whatever dumb reason, beamdog decided to make it so units can more easily pass one another and into tight corridors, including large enemies.

All are shits. SHITS! This just make combat easier for the noobs, is all. They are the 4 reasons why you should use total conversion mod to play BG1 in BG2 engine instead of suffering EE.

And before you whine SCS, let me remind you that the 4 reasons showcase very clearly the mindset of devs: cater to the dumbs. With that, if SCS can work to its intended tactical difficulty in EE is a huge question mark. Specically I dont trust the devs to let SCS work as designed. if they say it does, pure marketing and empty promise to the loud audience.

Your claim would be correct when talking about a system made from scratch specifically for the game in question. But when you put a D&D logo on the box and advertise it as "a d&d computer game" then yes, pnp rules have meaning. Otherwise the D&D sticker doesn't mean anything at all (yep even setting is not called "d&d"). It is developers trying to deceive the buyers. Which is common but it doesn't mean that it is good or that we should like it. Nota bene the practice existed for a long time but at least games like Eye of the Beholder didn't insist on being pnp-like experience as much as infinity games were portrayed. And even then it was a questionable practice.

For the record, I agree that (pnp) rpgs are completely different animal from (computer) rpgs. This why i'm pefering original game systems made for crpgs. However if you intend of using pnp one - then use it. Otherwise there is no point. Forgotten Realms is banal-shit-boring as fantasy setting can be. Sorry, forgot Golarion.

Your complaint would be correct about 3 decades ago when DnD started getting adapted to computer games.

Nowadays there's nearly one hundred DnD games of all types on computer systems. There are a lot of gamers who never play tabletop and wont, no matter what.

Demand DND exclusivity to pnp is too late by now~