Bioshock Infinite - the $200 million 6 hour literally on rails interactive movie with guns thread

[evdk]

Can't say anything about 2 as I have not played it, but another SS2 replay would be a far superior use of your time than attempting to finish BioShock 1. It has some nice visuals, but the gameplay and story are shit. Inb4 DraQ ranting about relativistic speeds of ejected space station pods.

Well, duh. Plot in SS2 sucked. It was the atmosphere that made this title.

I don't think the plot sucked, but that is mostly because I do not believe a fucked up premise invalidates the rest of the narrative.

 

[Cassidy]

That new gameplay footage is...

What gameplay footage? All I saw was the first 3d animated C-movie I had the displeasure of watching a part of.

Fucking rejects couldn't get a job at Pixar, Avatard production etc and now are ruining gaming.

 

[toro]

Jesus ... is that day of the month?

Like Dishonored, I get the feeling it will be a good game that could, however, have been turned into an excellent one with better hardware and more RAM.

Dishonored faults are not technical. It was a polished game. Are you trolling?

Well, duh. Plot in SS2 sucked. It was the atmosphere that made this title.

Plot in SS2 did not suck more than other survival-horror stories. In fact, it was quite good. How can you have great atmosphere without a good story? How can you separate story from the atmosphere?

 

[Angthoron]

Jesus ... is that day of the month?

Like Dishonored, I get the feeling it will be a good game that could, however, have been turned into an excellent one with better hardware and more RAM.

Dishonored faults are not technical. It was a polished game. Are you trolling?

It could have been better if the level sizes weren't limited by XBawx's tiny RAMs.

Well, duh. Plot in SS2 sucked. It was the atmosphere that made this title.

Plot in SS2 did not suck more than other survival-horror stories. In fact, it was quite good. How can you have great atmosphere without a good story? How can you separate story from the atmosphere?

Dishonored is one such example. The story is shit. No, really. The premise is good, but the execution is putrid. The world, however, is very atmospheric, all the details that are not connected to the main plot are neat, side characters are fairly interesting.

Half-Life 2 is another example. It doesn't have a great story. Fuck, it barely has a story. Still, through level design, ambience and various other things that are not part of the story, the game is often shining with its atmosphere.

 

[toro]

Jesus ... is that day of the month?

Like Dishonored, I get the feeling it will be a good game that could, however, have been turned into an excellent one with better hardware and more RAM.

Dishonored faults are not technical. It was a polished game. Are you trolling?

It could have been better if the level sizes weren't limited by XBawx's tiny RAMs.

Nope. Dishonored's real problem was the non-challenging combat. The skills system was broken, stealth was not properly implemented and you were never in any real danger.
It wouldn't matter if they had increased the level size to x10, because in the end it would have been the same crap. The game's design is fundamentally flawed and no amount of RAM or GPU can fix that.

Well, duh. Plot in SS2 sucked. It was the atmosphere that made this title.

Plot in SS2 did not suck more than other survival-horror stories. In fact, it was quite good. How can you have great atmosphere without a good story? How can you separate story from the atmosphere?

Dishonored is one such example. The story is shit. No, really. The premise is good, but the execution is putrid. The world, however, is very atmospheric, all the details that are not connected to the main plot are neat, side characters are fairly interesting.

Half-Life 2 is another example. It doesn't have a great story. Fuck, it barely has a story. Still, through level design, ambience and various other things that are not part of the story, the game is often shining with its atmosphere.

Your comparisons are flawed: Both Dishonored and Half-Life2 have failed where SS2 has succeeded. Meaning that SS2 has remain important even to this day, when the former ones are quite forgettable.
And you just said that both of them had great atmosphere, therefore there is something else which makes SS2 better!?

Let me guess:
SS2 story was coherent and consistent with the gameplay. It stimulated the player's mind and the implementation was good.
Dishonored story is inconsistent and sometimes forced. The great plot twist existed only because they wanted to be edgy.
Half-Life 2 story is simply garbage.

I don't claim that SS2's story was great, awesome or MAJESTIC, but I'm pretty sure it did not suck. Maybe I'm not edgy enough.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Alright, I watched 15 mins of gameplay sofar and all I saw was a shitload of cinematic events and combat that looked utter shit.

It's definitely not the premise I find bad. I applaud their imagination.
It's just everything else.

 

[racofer]

I can't believe some schmuck gets paid to write an article about a game's box art.

What's so strange about that? There's also a lot of people getting paid to develop that game and I don't see you finding anything weird about that.

 

[DraQ]

There is one important thing about SS2 story that sucked, though - being built on severely flawed and inconsistent premise.

That is:

1. FTL is teh hard. Reaching other systems is a big deal.
2. Unpowered pod ejected mere few decades before pioneering FTL gets to another system before brand new FTL ship.
3. trollface.jpg

 

[Cassidy]

Aspergers gonna asperger about one of the best games of all times.

 

[Angthoron]

Nope. Dishonored's real problem was the non-challenging combat. The skills system was broken, stealth was not properly implemented and you were never in any real danger.
It wouldn't matter if they had increased the level size to x10, because in the end it would have been the same crap. The game's design is fundamentally flawed and no amount of RAM or GPU can fix that.

Except it is still a hardware-bound limitation. DX: IW is also a poor game, but it is further crippled by console hardware. Whether combat and levels would be better or not without these limitations is another thing - maybe having the levels be bigger than a matchbox would reflect on combat design not being largely ambush-based.

Your comparisons are flawed: Both Dishonored and Half-Life2 have failed where SS2 has succeeded. Meaning that SS2 has remain important even to this day, when the former ones are quite forgettable.
And you just said that both of them had great atmosphere, therefore there is something else which makes SS2 better!?

Let me guess:
SS2 story was coherent and consistent with the gameplay. It stimulated the player's mind and the implementation was good.
Dishonored story is inconsistent and sometimes forced. The great plot twist existed only because they wanted to be edgy.
Half-Life 2 story is simply garbage.

I don't claim that SS2's story was great, awesome or MAJESTIC, but I'm pretty sure it did not suck. Maybe I'm not edgy enough.

I don't argue SS2 being either good or bad, nor denying games with good story and atmosphere. You, however, asked if games can have poor story, but good atmosphere, and to that I said yes, and gave examples. Where's the flaw?

 

[Morgoth]

toro, you are the fucking troll here if you can't see the connection between limited RAM/processing power and the crippled gameplay. Shitty unchallenging enemies ultimately are a result of how these AIs can operate withing the given space, which in return is very much a level design issue, which in return is very much limited by RAM. Not to mention that their AI routines (patrolling etc.), set of combat styles (limited by animations which *is* also a RAM issue) and the fact that Dishonored felt like a ghost town because there were hardly any AIs there (Guards had to be spawned in instead of being hand-placed there from the beginning, like in Thief games).

You fucking dumbass troll you toro. Don't you ever dare to accuse me of being a troll again without using any facts.

 

[Average Manatee]

There is one important thing about SS2 story that sucked, though - being built on severely flawed and inconsistent premise.

That is:

1. FTL is teh hard. Reaching other systems is a big deal.
2. Unpowered pod ejected mere few decades before pioneering FTL gets to another system before brand new FTL ship.
3. trollface.jpg

The difference is that SS2's plot sucks offscreen. There is a huge difference between a game which breaks a rule to set up the story and then remains consistent from then on and one that breaks rules in the middle of the story leaving the whole thing disjoint.

 

[toro]

toro, you are the fucking troll here if you can't see the connection between limited RAM/processing power and the crippled gameplay. Shitty unchallenging enemies ultimately are a result of how these AIs can operate withing the given space, which in return is very much a level design issue, which in return is very much limited by RAM. Not to mention that their AI routines (patrolling etc.), set of combat styles (limited by animations which *is* also a RAM issue) and the fact that Dishonored felt like a ghost town because there were hardly any AIs there (Guards had to be spawned in instead of being hand-placed there from the beginning, like in Thief games).

You fucking dumbass troll you toro. Don't you ever dare to accuse me of being a troll again without using any facts.

What are you smoking? The game looks very good, the skills system is retarded.

 

[toro]

Nope. Dishonored's real problem was the non-challenging combat. The skills system was broken, stealth was not properly implemented and you were never in any real danger.
It wouldn't matter if they had increased the level size to x10, because in the end it would have been the same crap. The game's design is fundamentally flawed and no amount of RAM or GPU can fix that.

Except it is still a hardware-bound limitation. DX: IW is also a poor game, but it is further crippled by console hardware. Whether combat and levels would be better or not without these limitations is another thing - maybe having the levels be bigger than a matchbox would reflect on combat design not being largely ambush-based.

I know what you are saying, but it seems that you don't see my point: Dishonored was not limited by hardware but by stupid design decisions.
It doesn't matter how big is a level, if you don't have something interesting to do. We can agree to disagree.

Your comparisons are flawed: Both Dishonored and Half-Life2 have failed where SS2 has succeeded. Meaning that SS2 has remain important even to this day, when the former ones are quite forgettable.
And you just said that both of them had great atmosphere, therefore there is something else which makes SS2 better!?

Let me guess:
SS2 story was coherent and consistent with the gameplay. It stimulated the player's mind and the implementation was good.
Dishonored story is inconsistent and sometimes forced. The great plot twist existed only because they wanted to be edgy.
Half-Life 2 story is simply garbage.

I don't claim that SS2's story was great, awesome or MAJESTIC, but I'm pretty sure it did not suck. Maybe I'm not edgy enough.

I don't argue SS2 being either good or bad, nor denying games with good story and atmosphere. You, however, asked if games can have poor story, but good atmosphere, and to that I said yes, and gave examples. Where's the flaw?

As for SS2, DraQ point was that the SS2 story sucked and the main quality of the game was the atmosphere.
You gave me examples of games which had good atmosphere, but they ultimately failed because their story was inconsistent and forgettable.
I don't have any problem with your examples, except that they don't address the issue: take out the good story from SS2 and you will have another bland Dishonored or Half-Life2. Please tell me how SS2 will remain SS2 without Shodan?
SS2 is a game were the sum is greater than its parts, but is far fetched to say that the SS2 story sucked.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

As for SS2, DraQ point was that the SS2 story sucked and the main quality of the game was the atmosphere.
You gave me examples of games which had good atmosphere, but they ultimately failed because their story was inconsistent and forgettable.
I don't have any problem with your examples, except that they don't address the issue: take out the good story from SS2 and you will have another bland Dishonored or Half-Life2. Please tell me how SS2 will remain SS2 without Shodan?
SS2 is a game were the sum is greater than its parts, but is far fetched to say that the SS2 story sucked.

www.rockpapershotgun.com

 

[toro]

As for SS2, DraQ point was that the SS2 story sucked and the main quality of the game was the atmosphere.
You gave me examples of games which had good atmosphere, but they ultimately failed because their story was inconsistent and forgettable.
I don't have any problem with your examples, except that they don't address the issue: take out the good story from SS2 and you will have another bland Dishonored or Half-Life2. Please tell me how SS2 will remain SS2 without Shodan?
SS2 is a game were the sum is greater than its parts, but is far fetched to say that the SS2 story sucked.

www.rockpapershotgun.com

What?

 

[Infinitron]

SS2 wasn't good because of Shodan. It was good because its mechanics were significantly more complex than those of its modern "successors", all across the board. There was just more to do, more to think of.

 

[Haba]

And SS2 itself was less ambitious and more simplified version of SS1...

:point:

 

[Infinitron]

And SS2 itself was less ambitious and more simplified version of SS1...

:point:

SS1 didn't have stats, though, so not an RPG.

 

[toro]

SS2 wasn't good because of Shodan. It was good because its mechanics were significantly more complex than those of its modern "successors", all across the board. There was just more to do, more to think of.

Schizophrenia helps. I did not say that Shodan is the sole reason why SS2 is great, I've just said that SS2 will not be SS2 without her. And the starting point of the discussion was that SS2 story sucks.

Well, do you think SS2 story sucks?

 

[Infinitron]

SS2's story is satisfactory. I wouldn't say it's better or worse than HL2's. I haven't yet played Dishonored, so don't know about that.

 

[skuphundaku]

Ken Levine on marketing Bioshock: Infinite to fratboys ( http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/12/bioshock-infinite-box-art/ ):

Cover art is sometimes the only thing a consumer makes a buying decision based on, and it’s okay if they use the cover that they feel will put this game in the hands of millions of bros who just want to shoot things. Nobody said when the first BioShock came out that it was about Ayn Rand, they just said you got to set things on fire and throw bees out your hands.
When I got to sit down with Infinite‘s creative director Ken Levine on Thursday after playing the game and asked for his thoughts, I got an extensive, thoughtful answer that in a perfect world would put an end to all of the bellyaching.
“I understand that some of the fans are disappointed. We expected it. I know that may be hard to hear, but let me explain the thinking.”
“We went and did a tour… around to a bunch of, like, frathouses and places like that. People who were gamers. Not people who read IGN. And [we] said, so, have you guys heard of BioShock? Not a single one of them had heard of it.”
“And we live in this very special… you know, BioShock is a reasonably successful franchise, right? Our gaming world, we sometimes forget, is so important to us, but… there are plenty of products that I buy that I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about. My salad dressing. If there’s a new salad dressing coming out, I would have no idea. I use salad dressing; I don’t read Salad Dressing Weekly. I don’t care who makes it, I don’t know any of the personalities in the salad dressing business.”
“For some people, [games are] like salad dressing. Or movies, or TV shows. It was definitely a reality check for us. Games are big, and they’re expensive, I think that’s very clear. And to be successful, and to continue to make these kinds of games which frankly, of the people who make these types of games, there’s not a lot of them, and they haven’t exactly been the most successful with these types of games that have come out in the last few years. I was thrilled because I love them, and I hope that we had some small role in getting those games greenlit… But they have to be financially successful to keep getting made.”
“I looked at the cover art for BioShock 1, which I was heavily involved with and love, I adored. And I tried to step back and say, if I’m just some guy, some frat guy, I love games but don’t pay attention to them… if I saw the cover of that box, what would I think? And I would think, this is a game about a robot and a little girl. That’s what I would think. I was trying to be honest with myself. Trust me, I was heavily involved with the creation of those characters and I love them.”
“Would I buy that game if I had 60 bucks and I bought three games a year… would I even pick up the box? I went back to the box for System Shock 1, which was obviously incredibly important — that game was incredibly influential on me, System Shock 2 was the first game I ever made. I remember I picked it up… looked at it and I said, I have no idea what this game is. And I didn’t have a lot of money back then. So, back on the shelf. And I was a gamer.”
“I wanted the uninformed, the person who doesn’t read IGN… to pick up the box and say, okay, this looks kind of cool, let me turn it over. Oh, a flying city. Look at this girl, Elizabeth on the back. Look at that creature. And start to read about it, start to think about it.”

 

[Infinitron]

Ken Levine, Ken Levine never changes. It's incredible how in five years Bioshock has turned from dumbed down shit that he had to defend from angry Looking Glass fans on TTLG (using these exact same arguments) to a game that's too sophisticated for the masses.

It really shows how the medium has nosedived since 2007.

 

[DraQ]

There is no discussing that SS2 is a great game, but there is also no discussing that while it maybe better to have a gaping plothole in the premise, rather than the actual story, we'd be still ragging on BW if it derped the premise of a game so badly somewhere back in 1999.
Why the double standard?

SS2 wasn't good because of Shodan. It was good because its mechanics were significantly more complex than those of its modern "successors", all across the board. There was just more to do, more to think of.

First of all, it's not about mechanics being more complex. It's about mechanics supporting the atmosphere. So do other elements - characterization, music, etc.

For example having minuscule amount of ammo and resources in general, plus breakable weapons, plus relatively little HP, plus respawning enemies who were actually searching for you, while you had to explore and backtrack around the place really helped drive the point that you're alone and vulnerable across.

Having all those dead people and personal audio logs helped you care and helped build some depth around what would otherwise be just a bunch of space zombies.

And so on.

 

[Infinitron]

Having all those dead people and personal audio logs helped you care and helped build some depth around what would otherwise be just a bunch of space zombies.

Sure, but Bioshock did that too. The difference? Less complexity across the board.