KickStarter Bloodstained - Koji Igarashi's new metroidvania game

[Somberlain]

Sorrow games indeed suffer from an excessive amount of meh abilities. That's funny because those games do have plenty of unique and interesting powers but they kinda get drowned by all the near identical projectile attacks and other more banal ones. You'll probable end up not even trying most of the powers because of the bloat so you'll miss some of the good stuff.

Another thing I hope the balance well or Bloodstained is long-range vs. short-range attacks. One of my few complaints about Ecclesia is how melee glyphs seem weak compared to ranged ones. You die in OoE a lot easier than in the other games so you'll want to be really careful about not getting hit. Melee attacks should be really powerful since you are in constant danger while using them, because enemies damage you just by making contact.

This is highlighted further on hard mode where you take even more damage and some enemies move at double speed, so you'll really want to keep your distance. And of course you got magic glyphs like Nitesco and Acerbatus that basically double as melee and ranged attacks which makes pure melee glyphs even more obsolete, aside from certain bosses that are particularly weak to hammers etc.

 

[Great Deceiver]

I actually like OoE a lot. It's the best of the "modern" CV games as far as I'm concerned.

 

[e-mailio estevez]

Yeah OoE is my favorite b a mile. Good challenge, level design, bosses, the whole shebang.

Somberlain is right, though, once I got Nitesco I'm pretty sure I never unslotted it.

 

[Ash]

This is highlighted further on hard mode where you take even more damage and some enemies move at double speed, so you'll really want to keep your distance. And of course you got magic glyphs like Nitesco and Acerbatus that basically double as melee and ranged attacks which makes pure melee glyphs even more obsolete, aside from certain bosses that are particularly weak to hammers etc.

Can't you have two glyphs? If recall I spent much of the game with a ranged attack and a melee attack, melee typically doing a bit more damage or draining less mana.

Somberlain is right, though, once I got Nitesco I'm pretty sure I never unslotted it.

I take it this is the lightsaber glyph. Wrecks everything and takes no accuracy or timing. Too OP.

 

[Dev_Anj]

One of my few complaints about Ecclesia is how melee glyphs seem weak compared to ranged ones. You die in OoE a lot easier than in the other games so you'll want to be really careful about not getting hit. Melee attacks should be really powerful since you are in constant danger while using them, because enemies damage you just by making contact.

One of my major complaints about Order of Ecclesia's glyph system. While I do appreciate that magic was made more convenient to use and there was much more emphasis on actually switching up attacks instead of just spamming your weapon and occasionally throwing a subweapon/spell to victory!1, the magic glyphs outdid melee in so many ways it wasn't even laughable. The only melee glyph which retained good utility throughout the game was the Ascia (Axe subweapon) line, and that's because it was rapid fire and had good vertical reach, which became all the more important in Ecclesia since it loved throwing loads of flying enemies at you.

Acerbatus, while strong (and the only good lightning based attack in that game), is still balanced by its slow rate of fire and high MP cost. Nitesco is broken as fuck though, problem is it hits two attributes which most of the game's enemies are weak to, meaning that basically none resist it effectively. Combine that with fast firing speed, multi hits, and good horizontal range, and you basically have the rest of the game turned into a shooty laser fest. Not as broken as the infamous Claimh Solais, but comes pretty damn close. It's melee union is even more ridiculous, when fully powered it slices even Dracula in mere seconds!

 

[SCO]

OoE speedruns are amusing. I've never been able to reproduce the glitch(es) to move fast but it sure looks fun. And it's probably on purpose from the devs.

 

[Drog Black Tooth]

OoE seemed like a p good and challenging game until you discover that you can kill any boss in seconds with glyph unions. Even Dracula.

Kinda ruined the game for me.

 

[Drog Black Tooth]

Come to think of it, my most fun Metroidvania experience was the 25 level cap Richiter mode in PoR. It's just ridiculously fun.

 

[Mozg]

Man Order of Ecclesia starts off amazing before the magic gets overpowered and able to handle everything. There any Castlevanias that are that good all the way through?

 

[skacky]

Circle of the Moon really is my favorite. It's brutal and very unforgiving but stays fair.

 

[Somberlain]

Ecclesia is definitely the best.

I'd say that Portrait of Ruin comes second. Like Ecclesia, it also has decent difficulty level and less backtracking than the earlier games so it's a more consistent and enjoyable experience. It added a side quest system which, while really basic, is still a nice addition that was improved upon in OoE. Portrait of Ruin also has a very versatile collection of environments, thanks to the magical paintings concept. It also has the partner switching mechanic which is surprisingly fun and works well, though it also feels like wasted potential when it comes to puzzles.

PoR has a terrible art style, however.

 

[Dev_Anj]

...it also has decent difficulty level

Can't say I agree with that, most of the first half of the game is easily trivialized by mastered Shuriken/Gale Force spam. For the second half you have Chain Lightning and a bunch of powerful whips and axes, the most standout among them being the

Spoiler

Vampire Killer.

The difficulty does get better on the Hard mode level caps though, and there it provides a decent enough challenge for a while, though still one that can be trivialized eventually. Do agree with the rest. If you ask me, Portrait of Ruin's main claim to fame over the other DS games is indeed in how much experimentation you can do with the mechanics, especially with the two character system. Here's just a small, funny example of it:

 

[Somberlain]

I would agree that there are certain abilities and tactics that make things a bit too easy. However, unlike in Symphony, Harmony and Aria, you can't brute force your way through the game and take hits all the time just by getting good equipment and some extra levels.

Btw, I really do recommend Hard modes in these games for those who haven't tried. They don't just increase enemy stats, they also change enemy placement and some other stuff.

 

[Mozg]

Y'all niggas weren't kidding about Portrait of Ruin being shitty looking. They really went all the way around to get the guy that did the character art for Ecclesia. It's so ugly I have to take a time out not to hold it against the gameplay.

 

[Mozg]

How does Salt and Sanctuary stack up to Igavania games?

 

[Ivan]

It features a sprawling map, but it's gated by tough enemies, not abilities that need to be acquired.

It's more of a Souls sidescroller. My biggest gripe with it is its combat. It feels floaty, much like Apotheon.

A solid title that's worth a look.

 

[---]

It's a little gaem, imho. Unfortunately the balancing is pretty terrible, even worse than the Souls game themselves.
And yeah, it's not a proper metroidvania, even if it has some metroidvania features.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Eh, it's gated by abilities too, if you're not cheating your way through with glitches.

 

[Machocruz]

Japanese developers like Igarashi are/were the masters of 2D action games. No western indie developers are stacking up well against Igavanias Or Metroids for that matter.

 

[Dev_Anj]

So here are two interesting posts regarding mechanics from the last two DS games:

I'm very sorry for not answering your posts but I barely have any free time anymore. You once asked me how I would redesign Charlotte's spellcasting, this is what I would do:

1-) Ditch half and full charges. Keep the bar, including instant cast.
2-) At the time of her spell release - regardless of how empty/full her casting bar is - store that timing variable on the RAM memory to be used in...
3-) Damage calculation/changes in animation based on how full the bar was.
4-) Balance spell base power on its AoE/number of targets/hit-speed/duration/other utility functions that require testing (ie: defensive uses, etc). A lookup table with each spell FPS and AoE would help a lot with this, both in the system's conceptualization and the actual coding.

Example: Let's say insta-cast Chain Lightning can only hit 2 targets at +10% MATK. For every 0.1 secs held longer, add another target and +3% MATK.

Note: MP costs are irrelevant in regards to balancing this system for it can be conceived and properly balanced even in the absence of such cost abstractions (and likewise, in the presence of MP costs).

Here is why i would make those changes, and a little "secret" that hopefully can be useful to you:

Every game designer is quick to recommend aspiring designers to understand the MDA game design model. But none of them dare say what I'm about to say now: the only thing that actually matters are the Dynamics part. I won't go into details as to why I firmly believe this is the case, you can reach your own conclusions about this.

For now (and it's been a few years now that this didn't change), the most effective way I can think of to create and put emphasis on gameplay dynamics is via some sort of analogic control. ie: Mario jump (is analogic despite being only 1 button), Monster Hunter big sword charge, etc.

What this does - in the case of our hypothetical redesign - is that it automatically creates strategic utility for each possible variation of any spell (by virtue of timing and power) but most importantly it simultaneously accomodates different playstyles/mindsets/player types while rewarding player skill, however minor differences there may be. Everyone has both a comfy/safe execution space to be in (immediately doable) and some space to grow in a system such as this. This is the power of dynamics.

The is the reason why Mario's jumps feel so good control. It's the same reason why casuals can have fun with the game at the same time as hardcore speedrunners. As a matter of fact, the difficulty of mastering Mario's analogic jump is also in the players hands: the faster you run, the harder it is to execute precise jumps. No easy/normal/hard toggle needed.

The same applies to Monster Hunter's big sword charge: since this system is supported by bosses with multiple hit-boxes, minor differences in analogic execution leads to a rewarding experience for those who "just managed to hit the boss" and "those who could hit the tip of his nose", and anyone in-between.

Ultimately, my point is: when designing real time action games (and many other types too of course), good mechanics and aesthetics will wither and die once their novelty wears off without dynamics. OTOH, solid gameplay dynamics will remain timeless and engaging even in the absence of good aesthetics. In other words: dynamics offer the greatest nuance for mastery, and the relationship between dynamics and that mastery is YOU. When you change, that nuance will also change and you can simply grow your mastery in another direction inside the same system. So it's still engaging, unlike rigid/pre-set mechanics and aesthetics.

NI liked the IDEA of a throwback to the oldschool Heart System but to be completely honest, as it is, it's a systemic downgrade compared to the other games. They should have gone with something original instead of hearts or used them in a different way.

You see, Glyph Unions kinda fail at some things they're supposed to accomplish.

By allowing players to stack many extra damage % modifiers on top of each other (like Dominus+special rings), you're essentially adding more unnecessary complexity layers to accomplish the exact same thing as the previous special systems already did.

But unlike every other "super special power" in the other games, this one isn't reliable enough to get those 12 year old kids to win the game by using it like a panic button. That's 1 downside of the design inspired by the oldschool hearts throwback.

At the same tme, vets will have no problem conserving hearts simply by virtue of being better players which, combined with stacking stuff like Dominus on top of it, can make Unions overpowered. Except inexplicably for those poor kids included in the product's target demographic of course.

While I do understand these common super special moves are also partially Window Dressing (for each specific game) and partially there to punctuate the gameplay pacing with some flashy/exciting effect, they should've put more thought before commiting to this idea at expense of a certain target demographic.

Since the n00b player is the one who needs Super Powers the most, the Heart System is of course aggravated by other OoE's quirks such as the "corridor-syndrome" level design. If a kid gets stuck on a section here, there's no "This section is too hard. Y'know what? I'll go the other way in this Castle" (while gaining more levels) to alleviate the issue.

Y'see, Hearts worked in the old games BECAUSE they were 100% linear. That's when it makes sense to have an expendable MP mechanic (same thing for ole Mega Man). While OoE is constructed to be very corridor-like, you can in fact backtrack within a level. That's when Candles ALSO become a problem. Consider:

if we run out of Hearts with the current system then the mechanic is pretty much dead for the duration of the level. It's even worse when you consider that the game supports backtracking and candle breaking because that stimulates the player to engage in a boring activity (replenishing hearts by repeatedly hitting the same inanimate object that doesn't fight back) and aggravated once more by the fact that the player who would actually need this system the most is precisely the one that will be running out hearts.

if this Union Glyph system was based on some other original concept made up just for this game like say, Cooldown system instead of Hearts, that would make it more meaningful since it's reliable enough to be a core mechanic but not spammable to the point of being broken. It would still work as a panic button with clear feedback for the kids.

The main take away here is that adding another pseudo-MP bar without a new core mechanic to support it is redundant. There are ways they could've still made it work but this text-wall is big as it is.

Both made by Metastase over at GameFAQs(inb4 triggered).

 

[Invictus]

Man, this looking very dodgy indeed, with all the Might #9 fuckup they really need to hit this one out of the park.
I truly cant understand how 2 guys can release a game like Salt and Sanctuary which was excellent in what 2 years of development while Iga and his hype machine seem more incompetent with each update

 

[Dev_Anj]

evdk Invictus

Fine, here's the TL: DR version of both posts:

First one says that Charlotte's spell charging mechanic could be modified to do damage based on how much of her bar was filled, while allowing for immediate casts too. The advantage of this system, as opposed to the current one where there's only two states of charging and immediate casts don't exist, is that it would be easier for new players to grasp while still having a risk vs. reward scenario, and rewarding more skilled players for taking risks. He states that analog mechanics are a good fit for action games because not only are they more intuitive, they also provide a lot more player control.

The second one complains about the Glyph Unions in Order of Ecclesia, in the sense that while they're supposed to be a crutch for less skilled players, they're ultimately less reliable than previous crutches in other games, while still being overpowered in the hands of cunning min maxing players. Also the idea of limiting their use through hearts doesn't really work as well as intended because when you can backtrack and respawn candles to get more hearts, hearts become an essentially infinite resource, while also encouraging even more dull grinding. If they really wanted to make a crutch system, using something like a cooldown or limited, non renewable charge system would have been better.

 

[Dev_Anj]

Of the several complaints about Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait of Ruin, the awkward animu dialogue portraits was one frequently made. Turns out there's a project underway to fix just that, and the first half of it released today. I must say they did quite a fine job!

Note that you will need an XDelta patcher to install this.

Link: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/3356/

Images:

Spoiler

 

[Mozg]

Still looks terb compared to Ecclesia.

 

[Talby]

Looks pretty awful.