KickStarter Bloodstained - Koji Igarashi's new metroidvania game

[SumDrunkGuy]

This was the last great game I played. I loved this shit. So good it made everything I played afterwards taste meh

 

[Great Deceiver]

Machocruz if you haven't played Order of Ecclesia, I would recommend it. In terms of gameplay it's my favourite of these later-style Castlevania games.

 

[Machocruz]

Great Deceiver Yep I played it. All the DS games are great. For a while I was adamant that PoR was my favorite, but I've had more of an itch to replay OoE than the others. Didn't know why that was for a while, but now considering my thoughts on Metroidlike vs. Classic it's clear. OoE has just enough Metroid without having me retread the same ground over and over. And the difficulty is the highest of the 3, if overstated by people.

However, I thought some sections were too straightforward, like Kung Fu Master

 

[Great Deceiver]

It's been many years since I've played it, but I remember Dracula kicking my ass in that game. Hardest of these games by far.

 

[Machocruz]

IIRC, there was almost no room for deviation or error fighting him. A very specific pattern and timing you had to abide by.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Where is this game on the post-release content roadmap? I've had it sitting in my GoG account for over a year now, but everytime I check it out it seems like some new content update is just around the corner.

 

[Ash]

The base game is inferior to older castlevanias and current metroidvanias (Hollow Knight, Salt & Sanctuary). The post-release content does nothing to address this, instead adding stupid modes like Zangetsu.

Just play it now (it's ok, but there are much better games you could be playing) or skip it.

 

[Ash]

Now it’s time to pay it forward as both publishers team up once again to merge the worlds of Kingdom: Two Crowns and Bloodstained. The Kingdom Crossover includes a new area that captures the beautiful, modern pixel art aesthetic of Kingdom.

Within the Kingdom area, you will encounter a new boss that, once defeated, will grant the new Archer Familiar Shard. This familiar will follow you throughout your adventures and attack enemies from a ranged distance. Level up the shard to get more powerful attacks!

Oh OK, they are adding some stuff to the base game. Might make it a bit better, but there is no making this a modern classic without starting over completely. Making it a standard good game (8/10) is possible with heavy modification, but for now it remains beneath that (7/10, and I feel I'm being generous).

 

[Luka-boy]

Where is this game on the post-release content roadmap? I've had it sitting in my GoG account for over a year now, but everytime I check it out it seems like some new content update is just around the corner.

They just released Classic Mode, so almost halfway.

 

[HoboForEternity]

just make bloodstained 2 already ffs

 

[Luka-boy]

They added an extra mode to Classic Mode that's even closer to the original NES Castlevania.

1986 Mode Discovered!
A hidden mode within the free Classic Mode Update has been discovered!

The recently released Classic Mode hides a secret...within the update is a more difficult mode called “1986”.

Classic Mode is an homage to the classic games of yesteryear, when games were 8-bit and controllers were analog. One mistake and you’re sent back to the beginning of the level with one less life to lose. Lose enough and it’s Game Over.

1986 takes things to a new level by restricting Miriam’s abilities within the mode.

* No Backflip
* No Backstep
* No Slide
* Mid-air control is reduced
* Cannot jump off stairs
* Cannot jump on to stairs
* Extended whip is not available
* Cannot stand/crouch mid whip animation

Reducing Miriam’s abilities requires your own skills to be sharp as a sword to reach the end. The mode still has three difficulty levels to choose from, so you may want to start off on easy to get used to the controls.

To access the mode, head to the Extra Modes menu.

MAIN MENU EXTRA MODE CLASSIC MODE

On the Classic Mode launch screen, enter the following code:

(X or Square)(B or O)

When you have successfully entered the code, “1986” will appear at the bottom of the screen. Starting the game will reveal Miriam in a new red outfit. This lets you know that you’re playing 1989 Mode.

We hope you enjoy 1986 Mode!

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Where is this game on the post-release content roadmap? I've had it sitting in my GoG account for over a year now, but everytime I check it out it seems like some new content update is just around the corner.

So I have now officially started playing this. It's pretty good so far (I just beat the green bouncy demon guy), but it has a lot of very bizarre design decisions. I've played almost all of the Western Metroidvanias out there, but this is my first real experience with an Igavania; I think I played Symphony of the Night on a friend's PS1 in college, but I can't be sure (substances were definitely involved).

The Good:
+Environmental Art. It's really nice across the board. Only problem is some weird screen tearing in the "3D" levels (i.e. the towers, the castle entrance); could be something to do with my setup though, I haven't spent any time trying to fix it.
+Weapon/Shard Variety. Wasn't expecting this, but it's pretty cool. There are a lot of weapons around, and they all play pretty differently. This is unfortunately undermined by the general lack of difficulty (more on that below), but still, it's impressively near-FROMsoft levels of dedication to making sure the weapons feel distinct.
+Enemy variety. Basically same as above. There are tons of mooks to whack, and each and every one feels distinct aside from the occasional reskin (i.e. toad<<<poison toad). Good stuff.
+Tight control scheme. Really well done. Kinesthetically feels like someone had a high level vision for how the game should control/play and was able to execute on it pretty perfectly.

The Meh:
) Game balance is all over the place. I found the tutorial moderately challenging (for a tutorial), the Zangetsu fight quite challenging, and everything since then has been a complete and total cakewalk. I have completionist tendencies, so I have been scouting for every HP/MP Max Up and new recipe stat boost, but I haven't been grinding, and to my mind it's indicative of substantial design failures that I've just blindly one-shot every boss since Zangetsu.
) The music. I don't think it's badly done, per se, but it is very much not my style.

The Bad:
-Shard/Weapon parity. It's total shit. This ties into the above complaint about difficulty, but basically there are some shards/weapons that are functionally "iwin" buttons and there are some shards/weapons that are such utter wank that you would have to be a moron or a masochist to try and seriously use them. Seems like a waste of effort to implement so many shit options.
-The story/world-building. Oh My God what the fuck is this and can I just kill myself and everyone around me right now? Horrible, horrible shit.
-Performance. I have a decent machine and can run pretty much any current-gen piece of software on high-ish settings, but Bloodstained has occasional stutters. Glad I didn't buy it on the Switch.


Anyways, I'm having fun so far, but I'm also beginning to suspect it's guilty of that shitty trope of "THE INTENDED DIFFICULTY ONLY UNLOCKS ONCE YOU'VE BEATEN THE GAME TWICE!!!!!" which I really hate. I also have to say that playing this after having played Hollow Knight quite extensively I do wish there were more mobility focused options/abilities. Miriam plays like a real clod in comparison to The Knight.

 

[Silentstorm]

I just want a new Metroidvania game, i played the classic style ones but i didn't like them as much, particularly the 2nd one that felt more of the same even with different characters and the twist of a Bloodstained villain actually being a good person in that timeline.

I don't know, considering the reviews those two got, i should have enjoyed them more, but i just felt like playing another Metroidvania, this game isn't perfect, but it's fun and a sequel would be pretty cool, let Miriam have more adventures...mostly because Metroidvania Zangetsu is so OP he holds back during boss fights and the plot only requires Miriam to fight the final bosses because Zangetsu is so goddamn badass the villains literally run away from him at all times.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

In continuing to play this my interest is sort of starting to wane. I beat Gebel (on my first try... sigh.) for the "bad" ending, and I just reached Bloodless who, surprise, surprise, has actually killed me three times now. First boss to manage to kill me even once since Zangetsu. The lack of difficulty is far and away my biggest problem with the game, but hopefully that's starting to change now that I'm getting into the optional content. But the game does feel overstuffed. I would so much rather have 20 shard abilities/weapons, all of which are viable and useful, rather than 100+ 98% of which are either useless or highly situational.

It feels like yet another game that was a victim of its own Kickstarter success and spread itself too thin after overpromising.

I think I will stick with it to the good ending, it's not bad; it's just not delivering on its potential. Also apparently SOTN is available on the IOS store, so I'm treating Bloodstained as an aperitif to playing that on my AppleTV.

 

[Sarathiour]

Anyways, I'm having fun so far, but I'm also beginning to suspect it's guilty of that shitty trope of "THE INTENDED DIFFICULTY ONLY UNLOCKS ONCE YOU'VE BEATEN THE GAME TWICE!!!!!" which I really hate.

Yes. If you name you savefile NIGHTMARE , you unlock them from the get-go .

I also have to say that playing this after having played Hollow Knight quite extensively I do wish there were more mobility focused options/abilities. Miriam plays like a real clod in comparison to The Knight.

There is, but most of them come pretty late in the game.

 

[WhiteShark]

I think I will stick with it to the good ending, it's not bad; it's just not delivering on its potential. Also apparently SOTN is available on the IOS store, so I'm treating Bloodstained as an aperitif to playing that on my AppleTV.

To be blunt, if the (lack of) difficulty is your major problem with Bloodstained (as it was for me) I'm not sure why you're so excited for SotN. SotN is a great game in many ways but "adequately challenging" is not among them.

 

[Sarathiour]

I think I will stick with it to the good ending, it's not bad; it's just not delivering on its potential. Also apparently SOTN is available on the IOS store, so I'm treating Bloodstained as an aperitif to playing that on my AppleTV.

To be blunt, if the (lack of) difficulty is your major problem with Bloodstained (as it was for me) I'm not sure why you're so excited for SotN. SotN is a great game in many ways but "adequately challenging" is not among them.

Yeah i don't get it either, SotN is probably the easiest castlevnia, at least among the one i played.

 

[Ash]

No. SotN has its difficulty and balance issues, but they mostly only become present later in the game, once you get Katana, spammable soul steal and others. Bloodstained becomes a joke early and the base difficulty isn't even remotely challenging to begin with, outside of some bosses. SotN also keeps you on your toes with constant new enemy types, whereas bloodstained starts rehashing heavily, meaning you know how they are going to behave. Furthermore SotN also has slightly more testing level design, such as the clock tower w/swarms of medusa heads, also some scary enemy types like atomos in the marble gallery when you're low lvl. Just not a thing in shitstained, everything plays it safe. Lastly it only takes one simple fix (apply hardtype mod) to make it into a much more challenging game and overall bordering a masterpiece all around, whereas shitstained is quite irredeemable.

 

[WhiteShark]

No. SotN has its difficulty and balance issues, but they mostly only become present later in the game, once you get Katana, spammable soul steal and others. Bloodstained becomes a joke early and the base difficulty isn't even remotely challenging to begin with, outside of some bosses. SotN also keeps you on your toes with constant new enemy types, whereas bloodstained starts rehashing heavily, meaning you know how they are going to behave. Furthermore SotN also has slightly more testing level design. clock tower w/swarms of medusa heads, also some scary enemy types like atomos in the marble gallery whn your low lvl. Just not a thing in shitstained. Furthermore it only takes one simple fix (apply hardtype mod) to make it into a much more challenging game and overall bordering a masterpiece all around, whereas shitstained is quite irredeemable.

How's the nightmare difficulty on Bloodstained though? Is it enough to make things challenging? I didn't bother playing through it again so I only experienced the normal mode.

 

[Ash]

Oh...I forgot that is a thing. Yeah I did start that, don't know why I bothered because as you can tell I am not very fond of the game, but it was a lot harder. Didn't get far before I just started playing something better instead.

I'll add that since all attacks outside of basic melee are tied to mana, most notably the OP ranged shit, and mana passively regenerates, I can easily see the game turning into degenerate trash gameplay wherein you'll be waiting around for the mana to regenerate all the damn time so you can spam the OP ranged attacks. It is that or die and lose up to 30 mins of progress when you're in a pinch, so why wouldn't you?

To be fair this is also something you can do in SotN with soul steal when in a pinch, but it is less tedious there since only magic is tied to passively regenerating mana not the vast majority of attacks, and it heals you, making attacking head on viable again. Rediculously OP though. Overall passive mana regen needs to go in both games (or all igavanias really). Make enemies drop mana potions or dealing damage restores mana. Some less stupid alternative.

"Game balance is all over the place. I found the tutorial moderately challenging (for a tutorial), the Zangetsu fight quite challenging, and everything since then has been a complete and total cakewalk."

This was my experience too. It's not quite the case in SotN. Don't let anyone BS you otherwise. It's not super hard but you don't walk in the room and just spam lightning at everyone and they're all dead with zero skill. Don't even have to aim, it goes through walls and chains to all nearby enemies!
The worst thing with Sotn is soul steal, but it takes so much MP that it can't even be used at all at first, can't be truly spammed till very late game, the input is quite a pain to do in the heat of battle...game is notably harder than shitstained, or even comparing nightmare to sotn hardtype mod, just better designed.

 

[Sarathiour]

I'm going to be honest : i played on SotN for the first on my phone trough emulation, and thought about doing the real thing quickly, because as expected the control scheme is a disaster on phone. The thing is , i was never really challenged. I keep making dumb mistakes because my fat thumb are nowhere precise enough, but i does not matter at all for a casual playthrough (i'm going blind, so it's not like i'm optimizing my route or anything like this), very few thing can dish out enough punishment.

the clock tower w/swarms of medusa heads

Clock tower is probably the most recurrent level in the series, and bloodstained is no exception.

I'll add that since all attacks outside of basic melee are tied to mana, most notably the OP ranged shit, and mana passively regenerates, I can easily see the game turning into degenerate trash gameplay wherein you'll be waiting around for the mana to regenerate all the damn time so you can spam the OP ranged attacks. It is that or die and lose up to 30 mins of progress when you're in a pinch, so why wouldn't you?

Again those kind of things are present at least since aria of sorrow, and you're not supposed to wait like this, item consumable already exist for such case. Just because the game does not punish for taking a strategic dumb in a middle of a level does not mean that it's a shit mechanic. It probably also serve to prevent softlock.

How's the nightmare difficulty on Bloodstained though? Is it enough to make things challenging?

Haven't done nightmare, but first boss can kill you in 4 hit or less in hard.

 

[Ash]

I'm going to be honest : i played on SotN for the first on my phone trough emulation, and thought about doing the real thing quickly, because as expected the control scheme is a disaster on phone. The thing is , i was never really challenged. I keep making dumb mistakes because my fat thumb are nowhere precise enough, but i does not matter at all for a casual playthrough (i'm going blind, so it's not like i'm optimizing my route or anything like this), very few thing can dish out enough punishment.

https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2896/

Clock tower is probably the most recurrent level in the series, and bloodstained is no exception.

Right, but they all have different design if you pay attention. SoTN swarms you in a confined space, aggressively. Medusa spawn patterns and rates are harder to deal with. It's a bit tamer in BS and you can just spam lighting at them with zero effort if they dare cross your path.

See for yourself (timestamped): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBYUu6HTYZI#t=33m00s

They move slower, there's less of them, the gears rotate slower, there's way more space to maneuver....

SOTN is not a super hard game, it is absolutely let down by its balance issues (late game) and could be overall harder, but going to it from this sillyness will be an upgrade.

Again those kind of things are present at least since aria of sorrow, and you're not supposed to wait like this, item consumable already exist for such case. Just because the game does not punish for taking a strategic dumb in a middle of a level does not mean that it's a shit mechanic. It probably also serve to prevent softlock.

Present since SotN, just slightly less stupid in implementation there, and it has always been shit. Hollow Knight makes shitstained a laughing stock, as does Salt & Sanctuary. They wipe the floor with BS and dismiss this trash design.

There are consumables, and? I said "in a pinch", this means used everything you have, low health. You're just left with melee and mana. This is likely to happen a lot in Nightmare mode unless you're a elite-tier no-life castlevania player, which then will push you to this degenerate strategy since nobody is a fan of losing progress if they can help it.

 

[Sarathiour]

https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2896/

yeah, i know of hardtype, gonna try it some day.

Right, but they all have different design. SoTN swarms you in a confined space, aggressively. Medusa spawn patterns and rates are harder to deal with. It's a bit tamer in BS and you can just spam lighting at them with zero effort if they dare cross your path.

You're going to run out of mp pretty quickly, and iIm not even even sure that's the best solution. If i remember right, stone circle was even more stupid to deal with this in portrait of ruin.

Hollow Knight makes shitstained a laughing stock, as does Salt & Sanctuary.

Yeah, i also agree that Hollow knight is better, notably due to his streamlined design. Character progression in HK got only a few axis : mask, spell pool, nail, charm and your moveset up to a certain point. Bloodstained got way more, and it obviously come at the cost of balance. One of the ice spell turns the endgame boss into an utter joke, but again nothing new under the sun, you could also beat the final boss of DoS by only pressing once a button with the right setup.
Can't speak for S&S.

There are consumables, and? I said "in a pinch", this means used everything you have, low health.

You're not supposed to rely on item, even in normal it's more a "noob" option, you use it to backtrack somewhere safe if you take too much damage while exploring, or want extra time to learn current boss pattern. Regardless of difficulty, bruteforcing your way trough heavy use of item is not the intended way to play.

This is likely to happen a lot in Nightmare mode unless you're a elite-tier no-life castlevania player, which then will push you to this degenerate strategy since nobody is a fan of losing progress if they can help it.

Can't speak for that either, I'm already getting my ass kicked in hard. And yes, i also avoid to rely on cheesy strat.

 

[Ash]

Yeah, i also agree that Hollow knight is better, notably due to his streamlined design. Character progression in HK got only a few axis : mask, spell pool, nail, charm and your moveset up to a certain point. Bloodstained got way more, and it obviously come at the cost of balance. One of the ice spell turns the endgame boss into an utter joke, but again nothing new under the sun, you could also beat the final boss of DoS by only pressing once a button with the right setup.

Fuck that shit. It's a copout. A game doesn't need to be streamlined to be good, do not say such terrible things. Hollow Knight is better because Bloodstained is uninspired, lazy, and features were clearly added haphazardly. Like lightning. Lightning that auto-aims, goes through walls, and chains to other enemies. Also regenerates. This doesn't even need testing, on paper it sounds like a recipe of overpowered as hell. Bad idea from the start.

Streamlined or no HK just has plain better design overall, because the mind/s behind it are superior and/or more determined; a better designer.

 

[Sarathiour]

A game doesn't need to be streamlined to be good, do not say such terrible things.

Obviously, my point is more across that line : the feature creep in bloodstained make it inevitable that some shit is going to be more broken that it has any right to be. I don't particularly mind because i cut out the fat myself, but i don't pretend that is good design.

Streamlined or no HK just has plain better design overall, because the mind/s behind it are superior and/or more determined; a better designer.

Indeed.