Call of Duty - Bioware's RPG of the Year

[swethabasu]

Yes we will fell in love with RPG if that is real like HELLGATES

 

[Yeesh]

There would be no problems of this sort if the esteemed community here could just come up with a succinct, functional definition for RPG. You can't expect the unwashed masses to understand the I'll-know-one-when-I-see-it approach, since they lack our great experience and sophistication.

 

[Archibald]

He looks like a pedophile.

As for my first rpg, it`s Mario!

 

[Darth Roxor]

Motherfuck, we're starting to reach a terminal singularity where Halo Wars really will be considered an rpg.

I'm too old for this shit.

 

[Morkar Left]

Moonstone was the better dragon age. It only lacked sexscenes because of memory restrictions in the past.

 

[non]

There would be no problems of this sort if the esteemed community here could just come up with a succinct, functional definition for RPG. You can't expect the unwashed masses to understand the I'll-know-one-when-I-see-it approach, since they lack our great experience and sophistication.

Those threads aren't such a bad idea after all.

 

[Jools]

Motherfuck, we're starting to reach a terminal singularity where Halo Wars really will be considered an rpg.

I'm too old for this shit.

It's hard enough on my sanity that it's considered a proper FPS...

 

[AlaCarcuss]

There would be no problems of this sort if the esteemed community here could just come up with a succinct, functional definition for RPG. You can't expect the unwashed masses to understand the I'll-know-one-when-I-see-it approach, since they lack our great experience and sophistication.

This is so true. The multitude of threads discussing what constitutes an RPG here over the years attest to that.

If the codex doesn't know what an RPG is, how the hell is joe blow casual supposed to?

For instance, we all know ME2 is not an RPG, but why isn't it? If it had a better inventory? More (any?) C&C? At what point would it become an RPG?

I'll put it another way. If ME2 was easily moddable, what mods would be needed to turn ME2 into an RPG?

 

[Admiral jimbob]

An RPG is a game with at least two of the following:

1) Elves
2) Swords
3) Magic

Mass Effect 2 is an RPG. The blue lesbian species are pretty much elves, and biotics are magic. It probably has some lightsaber ripoff too.
Call of Duty, on the other hand, is not an RPG. While it has knives, which count as swords in a pinch, the closest it gets to Elves and magic are Russians.
Fallout is not an RPG.

 

[Lord Rocket]

Well basically, if a game approximates the experience of playing a P&P RPG, then it is a CRPG. I haven't played ME2 so I can't answer your question specifically but I'd say the defining aspect of a P&P RPG is the fact that you play the system as much as the game; ie gaining advantage is more about manipulating probability than raw luck/dexterity/whatevs (same deal with wargames really but the difference between them should be obvious). Hence why games like Diablo can be RPGs too (monty haul hack 'n' slash campaign with a shitty GM), despite the fact they lack sequential combat/C&C/dialogue/exploration or whatever it is you losers like, while games like CoD can't - ooh, you unlocked a new gun! Can you click it in the right place though?

The real problem with defining 'RPGs' is the fact that most of the definitions out there are really only trying to encompass what they like about the genre. Traveller is an RPG, for instance, with no XP system. You could play an entire campaign of D&D without a single conversation with an NPC. You don't necessarily have to explore anything in a CoC adventure. You sure as shit can't play dress-up in GURPS Ice Age.

Actually, thinking about it, this definition breaks down a little when considering stat-heavy FPSes like SS2 and Deus Ex. These aren't RPGs (I know some people think they are, but lolz) but nevertheless there is a healthy element of gaming the system in there. I think they don't qualify because they aren't abstract enough. Whatevs though, I'll think about that some more later, right now I'm going to grab myself another scotch and dry. On that note sorry if this was a little incoherent, I haven't had that much but it went straight to my head. Can't hold my liquor.

 

[Konjad]

CoD is a cRPG because it has regenerative health like in nearly all cRPGs since goldbox, you just don't have to click on the health potions or spells. Baldur's Gate and other D&D based games had both health potions, spells and health regeneration if you had high CON.

 

[Lord Rocket]

fuck what i said though, hail jimbob!

 

[Mastermind]

Here's a face to go with the name in case anyone wanted to go give him a visit..

A bioware developer who doesn't look like a sexual predator. That's a first.

 

[AlaCarcuss]

Well basically, if a game approximates the experience of playing a P&P RPG, then it is a CRPG. I haven't played ME2 so I can't answer your question specifically but I'd say the defining aspect of a P&P RPG is the fact that you play the system as much as the game; ie gaining advantage is more about manipulating probability than raw luck/dexterity/whatevs (same deal with wargames really but the difference between them should be obvious). Hence why games like Diablo can be RPGs too (monty haul hack 'n' slash campaign with a shitty GM), despite the fact they lack sequential combat/C&C/dialogue/exploration or whatever it is you losers like, while games like CoD can't - ooh, you unlocked a new gun! Can you click it in the right place though?

The real problem with defining 'RPGs' is the fact that most of the definitions out there are really only trying to encompass what they like about the genre. Traveller is an RPG, for instance, with no XP system. You could play an entire campaign of D&D without a single conversation with an NPC. You don't necessarily have to explore anything in a CoC adventure. You sure as shit can't play dress-up in GURPS Ice Age.

Actually, thinking about it, this definition breaks down a little when considering stat-heavy FPSes like SS2 and Deus Ex. These aren't RPGs (I know some people think they are, but lolz) but nevertheless there is a healthy element of gaming the system in there. I think they don't qualify because they aren't abstract enough. Whatevs though, I'll think about that some more later, right now I'm going to grab myself another scotch and dry. On that note sorry if this was a little incoherent, I haven't had that much but it went straight to my head. Can't hold my liquor.

Nope, that's pretty good. I guess it can be summed up by - "What differentiates RPG's is the player character's skill is more important than the player's skill?" That certainly counts out ME2 (and most aRPG's marketed as cRPG's).

 

[deus101]

Well basically, if a game approximates the experience of playing a P&P RPG, then it is a CRPG. I haven't played ME2 so I can't answer your question specifically but I'd say the defining aspect of a P&P RPG is the fact that you play the system as much as the game; ie gaining advantage is more about manipulating probability than raw luck/dexterity/whatevs (same deal with wargames really but the difference between them should be obvious). Hence why games like Diablo can be RPGs too (monty haul hack 'n' slash campaign with a shitty GM), despite the fact they lack sequential combat/C&C/dialogue/exploration or whatever it is you losers like, while games like CoD can't - ooh, you unlocked a new gun! Can you click it in the right place though?

The real problem with defining 'RPGs' is the fact that most of the definitions out there are really only trying to encompass what they like about the genre. Traveller is an RPG, for instance, with no XP system. You could play an entire campaign of D&D without a single conversation with an NPC. You don't necessarily have to explore anything in a CoC adventure. You sure as shit can't play dress-up in GURPS Ice Age.

Actually, thinking about it, this definition breaks down a little when considering stat-heavy FPSes like SS2 and Deus Ex. These aren't RPGs (I know some people think they are, but lolz) but nevertheless there is a healthy element of gaming the system in there. I think they don't qualify because they aren't abstract enough. Whatevs though, I'll think about that some more later, right now I'm going to grab myself another scotch and dry. On that note sorry if this was a little incoherent, I haven't had that much but it went straight to my head. Can't hold my liquor.

Nope, that's pretty good. I guess it can be summed up by - "What differentiates RPG's is the player character's skill is more important than the player's skill?" That certainly counts out ME2 (and most aRPG's marketed as cRPG's).

Im sick and tired of you faggotry.

CRPG are computer implimentation of Pen and Paper RPG'S there AND DONE!

 

[MicoSelva]

Why is every other topic here turning into "what is an RPG"?

Ok, scratch that, this is RPG Codex after all. Who is supposed to tell if a game is an RPG if we're not.

The bad thing is the argument goes in circles not reaching any conclusion. It seems that we have to decide if a game is an RPG every time a new pretender appears, as there are no objective criteria that would let some automatic classifications.

I think that the biggest mistake we make is analyzing a game for presence of RPG elements. Let's face it - 90% of games today have fucking RPG elements, but it doesn't make 90% of today's games RPGs. It's not the presence of these we should be taking into consideration, but the focus of the game.

Three examples.

The whole point of Oblivion, atrocious as the game is, is character progression (debatable, due to level scaling), inventory management, solving quests and exploration - staples of RPG. No dilemma here - Oblivion is an RPG. Quality of its RPG elements make it a shitty one, but that's beside the point.

Blood Bowl also has character progression - levels, skills, experience (star player points), quests (in story mode - called objectives) and even inventory (in blitz mode). But no one sane would call it an RPG, because the point of the game is to show elves and orcs playing football.

Mass Effect has (simplistic) character progression, (extremely limited) inventory (gun, better gun, even better gun), quests (called missions/assignments) and even (corridor) exploration. All arguments about calling it an RPG are caused by the game's lack of focus. Gamer A might see the point of ME as shooting aliens in corridors, Gamer B as running from one cutscene-dialogue to another and checking all the possible options, Gamer C might want to make an uber-Shepard with maxed out skills.
I'm trying to say that You will see RPG in ME if You want to see it, but since RPG elements are weak it will turn out to be a shitty one in every analysis. The game should probably be honestly classified a hybrid (shooter/RPG) game - with ME2 leaning more towards the shooter side.

I will allow myself to draw another conclusion here:

Is Jagged Alliance 2 an RPG? I think not. It may have a lot of genre's elements - even implemented very well - but it does not focus on them. The point of the game is completing turn-based combat misions with a squad of mercenaries. RPG elements just make it (oh so much) better.

 

[Excommunicator]

This thread is now about 'What is an RPG?'

Congrats. Yeesh gets 10 points.

... However I am going to subtract 20 points for implying that the Codex could be in significant agreement about something so central to the lives of people here and the very existence of this place.

Even as a Codexer I can admit that many fellow Codexers who argue the point are typically stupid, ignorant and don't know what the hell they are saying, even though many of them understand far better than most people and have quite a good instinct in identifying an "RPG".

It isn't a rational subject. It never is. That Acronym represents far too much for people who have an opinion on it. People are so emotional and irrational about any suggestions of games that don't fit their [typically] knee-jerk and unsound definition that they would probably get into a fist fight over it, if it was a face to face discussion.

I could put forth a comprehensive criteria (notice I didn't use the word definition) - and one that could stand up to scrutiny - but until people accept that it is inevitable that an explanation isn't going to make everyone happy and certainly isn't going to match up with everyone's personal RPG list, then it is merely a wasted effort - like yelling at the sun for being too bright.

The real point though is that coming up with a definition is basically just academic masturbation. It doesn't matter what it is if that definition is going to be thrown out the door anywhere the term is used - most significantly, by the gaming media and the gaming industry. And THAT is the real point. Right now it is a marketing tool and it is worth money when people use it, and in this day and age with the people we have to work and deal with, good fucking luck in trying to maintain any standard of integrity that is going to clash with another man's quest for money.

 

[Jools]

An RPG is a game with at least two of the following:

1) Elves
2) Swords
3) Magic

Mass Effect 2 is an RPG. The blue lesbian species are pretty much elves, and biotics are magic. It probably has some lightsaber ripoff too.
Call of Duty, on the other hand, is not an RPG. While it has knives, which count as swords in a pinch, the closest it gets to Elves and magic are Russians.
Fallout is not an RPG.

What you gave is more like the definition of "fantasy" or "high fantasy", IMHO, and it excludes the possibility of "realistic" RPGs (eg ancient greece, contemporary times, realistic medieval, etc...).

Totally agree, of course, that CoD is NOT an RPG, and it doesn't even have "progression" elements: they merely are "gadgets" (yeah, even the "perks" are more similar to gadgets rather than actual skills that one would draw upon).

 

[Jaesun]

An RPG is a game with at least two of the following:

1) Elves
2) Swords
3) Magic

Mass Effect 2 is an RPG. The blue lesbian species are pretty much elves, and biotics are magic. It probably has some lightsaber ripoff too.
Call of Duty, on the other hand, is not an RPG. While it has knives, which count as swords in a pinch, the closest it gets to Elves and magic are Russians.
Fallout is not an RPG.

Finally. Some one who understands what an RPG is.

 

[Angthoron]

An RPG is a game with at least two of the following:

1) Elves
2) Swords
3) Magic

Mass Effect 2 is an RPG. The blue lesbian species are pretty much elves, and biotics are magic. It probably has some lightsaber ripoff too.
Call of Duty, on the other hand, is not an RPG. While it has knives, which count as swords in a pinch, the closest it gets to Elves and magic are Russians.
Fallout is not an RPG.

Awesome!

 

[7hm]

Why is every other topic here turning into "what is an RPG"?

Ok, scratch that, this is RPG Codex after all. Who is supposed to tell if a game is an RPG if we're not.

The bad thing is the argument goes in circles not reaching any conclusion. It seems that we have to decide if a game is an RPG every time a new pretender appears, as there are no objective criteria that would let some automatic classifications.

I think that the biggest mistake we make is analyzing a game for presence of RPG elements. Let's face it - 90% of games today have fucking RPG elements, but it doesn't make 90% of today's games RPGs. It's not the presence of these we should be taking into consideration, but the focus of the game.

Three examples.

The whole point of Oblivion, atrocious as the game is, is character progression (debatable, due to level scaling), inventory management, solving quests and exploration - staples of RPG. No dilemma here - Oblivion is an RPG. Quality of its RPG elements make it a shitty one, but that's beside the point.

Blood Bowl also has character progression - levels, skills, experience (star player points), quests (in story mode - called objectives) and even inventory (in blitz mode). But no one sane would call it an RPG, because the point of the game is to show elves and orcs playing football.

Mass Effect has (simplistic) character progression, (extremely limited) inventory (gun, better gun, even better gun), quests (called missions/assignments) and even (corridor) exploration. All arguments about calling it an RPG are caused by the game's lack of focus. Gamer A might see the point of ME as shooting aliens in corridors, Gamer B as running from one cutscene-dialogue to another and checking all the possible options, Gamer C might want to make an uber-Shepard with maxed out skills.
I'm trying to say that You will see RPG in ME if You want to see it, but since RPG elements are weak it will turn out to be a shitty one in every analysis. The game should probably be honestly classified a hybrid (shooter/RPG) game - with ME2 leaning more towards the shooter side.

I will allow myself to draw another conclusion here:

Is Jagged Alliance 2 an RPG? I think not. It may have a lot of genre's elements - even implemented very well - but it does not focus on them. The point of the game is completing turn-based combat misions with a squad of mercenaries. RPG elements just make it (oh so much) better.

This is probably the best post I've read in one of these threads.

I thought about adding more but there's really no need.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Well basically, if a game approximates the experience of playing a P&P RPG, then it is a CRPG. I haven't played ME2 so I can't answer your question specifically but I'd say the defining aspect of a P&P RPG is the fact that you play the system as much as the game; ie gaining advantage is more about manipulating probability than raw luck/dexterity/whatevs (same deal with wargames really but the difference between them should be obvious). Hence why games like Diablo can be RPGs too (monty haul hack 'n' slash campaign with a shitty GM), despite the fact they lack sequential combat/C&C/dialogue/exploration or whatever it is you losers like, while games like CoD can't - ooh, you unlocked a new gun! Can you click it in the right place though?

The real problem with defining 'RPGs' is the fact that most of the definitions out there are really only trying to encompass what they like about the genre. Traveller is an RPG, for instance, with no XP system. You could play an entire campaign of D&D without a single conversation with an NPC. You don't necessarily have to explore anything in a CoC adventure. You sure as shit can't play dress-up in GURPS Ice Age.

Actually, thinking about it, this definition breaks down a little when considering stat-heavy FPSes like SS2 and Deus Ex. These aren't RPGs (I know some people think they are, but lolz) but nevertheless there is a healthy element of gaming the system in there. I think they don't qualify because they aren't abstract enough. Whatevs though, I'll think about that some more later, right now I'm going to grab myself another scotch and dry. On that note sorry if this was a little incoherent, I haven't had that much but it went straight to my head. Can't hold my liquor.

Why is every other topic here turning into "what is an RPG"?

Ok, scratch that, this is RPG Codex after all. Who is supposed to tell if a game is an RPG if we're not.

The bad thing is the argument goes in circles not reaching any conclusion. It seems that we have to decide if a game is an RPG every time a new pretender appears, as there are no objective criteria that would let some automatic classifications.

I think that the biggest mistake we make is analyzing a game for presence of RPG elements. Let's face it - 90% of games today have fucking RPG elements, but it doesn't make 90% of today's games RPGs. It's not the presence of these we should be taking into consideration, but the focus of the game.

Three examples.

The whole point of Oblivion, atrocious as the game is, is character progression (debatable, due to level scaling), inventory management, solving quests and exploration - staples of RPG. No dilemma here - Oblivion is an RPG. Quality of its RPG elements make it a shitty one, but that's beside the point.

Blood Bowl also has character progression - levels, skills, experience (star player points), quests (in story mode - called objectives) and even inventory (in blitz mode). But no one sane would call it an RPG, because the point of the game is to show elves and orcs playing football.

Mass Effect has (simplistic) character progression, (extremely limited) inventory (gun, better gun, even better gun), quests (called missions/assignments) and even (corridor) exploration. All arguments about calling it an RPG are caused by the game's lack of focus. Gamer A might see the point of ME as shooting aliens in corridors, Gamer B as running from one cutscene-dialogue to another and checking all the possible options, Gamer C might want to make an uber-Shepard with maxed out skills.
I'm trying to say that You will see RPG in ME if You want to see it, but since RPG elements are weak it will turn out to be a shitty one in every analysis. The game should probably be honestly classified a hybrid (shooter/RPG) game - with ME2 leaning more towards the shooter side.

I will allow myself to draw another conclusion here:

Is Jagged Alliance 2 an RPG? I think not. It may have a lot of genre's elements - even implemented very well - but it does not focus on them. The point of the game is completing turn-based combat misions with a squad of mercenaries. RPG elements just make it (oh so much) better.

But is Pokemon an RPG series?

 

[Exmit]

Say hi to Fernando

Yes Fernando....... WHY ?

 

[Lord Rocket]

But is Pokemon an RPG series?

Hell yeah they are! You build a party and do the whole probability thing I was talking about when you choose your attacks and whatnot (OK, I've never played a pokey mon game for more than half an hour but I'm pretty sure this is what you do). Just because your avatar doesn't directly take place in combat doesn't mean it isn't an RPG.

Also I just want to say, 'character skill vs. player skill' is oversimplifying and makes RPGs sound completely noninteractive, which isn't true. Or a word really but fuck that. Anyway, yeah, it's true that your character's skill determines outcomes but the player does two important things: cranks his characters skill and picks his fights. There's also good tactics and whatnot in combat, if you're playing that sort of game. All that is definitely 'skill,' especially if you're going full munchkin.

Actually, that's another good definition for an RPG if you didn't like my other one: the skillset involved if you want to be good at them is a combination of mathematical and social abilities. The social side is a little stunted if you're talking about CRPGs of course, but being able to 'read' a situation in order to find the optimal solution for a quest is still quite important (yeah I know that Bioware etc. games are usually pretty obvious in this regard, but I'm talking theory here). Compare that to an FPS/pretty much any arcade game where the skills required are fine motor control and spatial awareness. Or a pure puzzle game which generally just checks how good you are at reasoning/lateral thinking.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

But is Pokemon an RPG series?

Pretty close I would say.

The only reason I could think of why it is not is because you don't progress your own charachter.

The rest is pretty much there.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

But is Pokemon an RPG series?

Pretty close I would say.

The only reason I could think of why it is not is because you don't progress your own charachter.

The rest is pretty much there.