Decline Can an RPG be real-time?

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Imagine playing any Fallout that isn't isometric.

Is BoS isometric or top-down?

 

[luj1]

Fallout Tactics is isometric.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Fallout Tactics is isometric.

I meant the other BoS.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

The release of Diablo in December 1996 (or possibly January 1997) arguably marks the first game in the Action RPG subgenre, where combat is not merely real-time but action-based with far more substantial demands on the player's physical skill than found in games such as Dungeon Master, Faery Tale Adventure, or Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss. Given the number of imitators it spawned, though, perhaps Diablo should not be considered an Action RPG but rather the progenitor of its own Diablo-like subgenre.

 

[NecroLord]

Imagine playing any Fallout that isn't isometric.

Interplay Fallout is the only true Fallout.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Imagine playing any Fallout that isn't isometric.

Interplay Fallout is the only true Fallout.

Oui.

 

[Vic]

The release of Diablo in December 1996 (or possibly January 1997) arguably marks the first game in the Action RPG subgenre, where combat is not merely real-time but action-based with far more substantial demands on the player's physical skill than found in games such as Dungeon Master, Faery Tale Adventure, or Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss. Given the number of imitators it spawned, though, perhaps Diablo should not be considered an Action RPG but rather the progenitor of its own Diablo-like subgenre.

there’s a distinction people make between action-rpg and ARPG. ARPGs are diablo clones like titan quest, grim dawn and path of exile.

 

[Vic]

The release of Diablo in December 1996 (or possibly January 1997) arguably marks the first game in the Action RPG subgenre, where combat is not merely real-time but action-based with far more substantial demands on the player's physical skill than found in games such as Dungeon Master, Faery Tale Adventure, or Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss. Given the number of imitators it spawned, though, perhaps Diablo should not be considered an Action RPG but rather the progenitor of its own Diablo-like subgenre.

there’s a distinction people make between action-rpg and ARPG. ARPGs are diablo clones like titan quest, grim dawn and path of exile.

What are some examples of action-rp games then?

witcher, elder scrolls, 3d fallouts, etc. basically RPGs with action combat. The term ARPG usually refers to diablo-likes. It means the same thing but hey, who said RPG definitions were easy.

 

[Morenatsu.]

Oh, I see what you mean now. Diablo is a Point-and-Click Adventure Role-Playing Game!

 

[sigma1932]

As long as the game being "real-time" doesn't allow the player's own real-world "twitch skills" (i.e. their ability to manipulate input devices) to take precedence over the characters' in-game stats/abilities/etc. and/or circumvent the game's behind-the-scenes formulaic mechanics, then yes.

For example, if no level of mouse-pointer aiming and/or speed of clicking the mouse button will allow a player controlling a character with non-existantant combat skills to fight competently, then it doesn't really matter if those combat actions are taken in real-time or in order of turns.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

there’s a distinction people make between action-rpg and ARPG. ARPGs are diablo clones like titan quest, grim dawn and path of exile.

What are some examples of action-rp games then?

witcher, elder scrolls, 3d fallouts, etc. basically RPGs with action combat. The term ARPG usually refers to diablo-likes. It means the same thing but hey, who said RPG definitions were easy.

Even if true, it is vastly less confusing to refer to imitators of Diablo as Diablo-likes, rather than having two nearly-identical terms for RPGs with action-based combat (which, incidentally, is not the case for the first 3 of the 5 Elder Scrolls games).

 

[Vic]

there’s a distinction people make between action-rpg and ARPG. ARPGs are diablo clones like titan quest, grim dawn and path of exile.

What are some examples of action-rp games then?

witcher, elder scrolls, 3d fallouts, etc. basically RPGs with action combat. The term ARPG usually refers to diablo-likes. It means the same thing but hey, who said RPG definitions were easy.

Even if true, it is vastly less confusing to refer to imitators of Diablo as Diablo-likes, rather than having two nearly-identical terms for RPGs with action-based combat (which, incidentally, is not the case for the first 3 of the 5 Elder Scrolls games).

what do you mean? I never played Arena but Daggerfall and Morrowind have real-time action combat, hence are action-rpgs

 

[Sigourn]

All games are based on player skill. Just because a game relies on stats more than others doesn't mean player skill stops mattering.
Are we gonna pretend someone new to cRPGs will be as skilled in them as a veteran of the genre? Being dexterous at an action RPG and being calculating at a turn-based RPG, doesn't make a difference to me. Both skills can be trained.

I think Chanel Oberlin explained it best:

if the skill of the average player can overcome the weaknesses of the character, then it's hard to justify the game as an RPG.

That's the issue with many action RPGs. A weak character matters very little. In Gothic and Dark Souls you need a GREAT player to overcome the poor stats of your characters, much like in turn-based games you need a GREAT player to overcome the poor stats of your characters. That's why I consider them actual RPGs. But with other action RPGs, the average player (key word) can negate these drawbacks with ease.

Let's spin this the other way: if you had a turn-based RPG where you can easily win the game without ever leveling up or increasing your stats... would you call it an RPG? A shit RPG? Or not an RPG?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Imagine playing any Fallout that isn't isometric.

The only isometric Fallout is Tactics.

 

[Sigourn]

I just thought how weird it would be if having slow Agility made your aiming slower in an action RPG.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

In Gothic and Dark Souls you need a GREAT player to overcome the poor stats of your characters,

gothic 2, ranged weapons

you're welcome

 

[KainenMorden]

I just thought how weird it would be if having slow Agility made your aiming slower in an action RPG.

I wouldn't find it weird, deus ex had similar mechanics

 

[NecroLord]

I just thought how weird it would be if having slow Agility made your aiming slower in an action RPG.

Slow?
You probably meant to say low Agility?
In the older Elder Scrolls titles(Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind) Agility was your overall ability to hit someone, while Strength was only the damage and total carry weight.

 

[Sigourn]

I just thought how weird it would be if having slow Agility made your aiming slower in an action RPG.

Slow?
You probably meant to say low Agility?
In the older Elder Scrolls titles(Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind) Agility was your overall ability to hit someone, while Strength was only the damage and total carry weight.

Low, yeah, that's what I meant. And by "slower aiming" I mean slower mouse movement across the screen. It would be pretty annoying.

 

[WhiteShark]

All games are based on player skill. Just because a game relies on stats more than others doesn't mean player skill stops mattering.
Are we gonna pretend someone new to cRPGs will be as skilled in them as a veteran of the genre? Being dexterous at an action RPG and being calculating at a turn-based RPG, doesn't make a difference to me. Both skills can be trained.

Some posters in this thread have been using the term 'player skill' more loosely than they ought. If you understand it as 'player twitch skill' the argument makes sense. The nature of an RPG is that the player handles the mental side while the character the physical. If the player's twitch skills translate directly, or even just sufficiently to overcome handicaps, to the character's physical performance, the nature of the game is different from that of an RPG.

 

[Sigourn]

All games are based on player skill. Just because a game relies on stats more than others doesn't mean player skill stops mattering.
Are we gonna pretend someone new to cRPGs will be as skilled in them as a veteran of the genre? Being dexterous at an action RPG and being calculating at a turn-based RPG, doesn't make a difference to me. Both skills can be trained.

Some posters in this thread have been using the term 'player skill' more loosely than they ought. If you understand it as 'player twitch skill' the argument makes sense. The nature of an RPG is that the player handles the mental side while the character the physical. If the player's twitch skills translate directly, or even just sufficiently to overcome handicaps, to the character's physical performance, the nature of the game is different from that of an RPG.

For sure, if we speak purely about translating the tabletop RPG experience to a computer. I don't think RPGs should be limited to that, so long as a game gives you a similarly enough feeling.

 

[WhiteShark]

Feeling is subjective but mechanics aren't. If the mechanical approach is different, it should go under a different label. Immersive sims may give some people a feeling closer to that of tabletop (and I believe that was the intent), but from a mechanical standpoint they play so differently that it would be silly to categorize them the same way.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

The point is people plays a specific game genre because they expect to put in use some specific gaming skills. If you mix together turn based RPGs and ARPGs under the same label "RPG", it not useful at all, since you put in the same genre games that require completely different player skills and that potentially attract different player categories.

 

[Harthwain]

there’s a distinction people make between action-rpg and ARPG. ARPGs are diablo clones like titan quest, grim dawn and path of exile.

ARPG is the same as action RPG.

To me a better distinction would be hack'n'slash (Diablo) and action RPGs (Dark Souls).

 

[rusty_shackleford]

dork souls isn't an rpg, it's an action game