Decline Can we please stop calling RPGs without gameplay Adventures?

[Verylittlefishes]

For example, I personally don't believe any game that has a fixed protagonist with a fixed personality to be an RPG

So Witcher 3 is not an RPG.

 

[Maxie]

since all you do is walk & talk i personally call them walkie-talkies

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

So Witcher 3 is not an RPG.

That's not even a bait considering a significantly large portion of this forum doesn't think it is. Good for Reddit maybe.
CDPR calls it story-driven RPG. I call it "Action Adventure, Open-World Story" like how the company is calling Cyberpunk 2077 nowadays.

 

[octavius]

This is 2020, so if an RPG identifies as an RPG then it is an RPG, and if an Adventure game identifies as an Adventure game then it is an Adventure game, and calling [preferred pronoun] otherwise is a Hate Crime.

 

[Harthwain]

For example, I personally don't believe any game that has a fixed protagonist with a fixed personality to be an RPG

Wouldn't that rule out Deus Ex (both 2000 and Human Revolution) as well? JC Denton and Adam Jensen are both fixed protagonists with a fixed personality (although it can be argued - in case of JC Denton's - that he's too washed out to have a personality).

 

[octavius]

I think JC was intended to be rather "washed out" and have a flat voice, to make him less "fixed".

 

[Darth Canoli]

This is 2020, so if an RPG identifies as an RPG then it is an RPG, and if an Adventure game identifies as an Adventure game then it is an Adventure game, and calling [preferred pronoun] otherwise is a a Hate Crime.

Sorry but for most of us not living in Retardia, pronouns aren't an issue, we call trannies: trannies, therefore, walking simulators aren't cRPGs.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

For example, I personally don't believe any game that has a fixed protagonist with a fixed personality to be an RPG

Wouldn't that rule out Deus Ex (both 2000 and Human Revolution) as well? JC Denton and Adam Jensen are both fixed protagonists with a fixed personality (although it can be argued - in case of JC Denton's - that he's too washed out to have a personality).

Yeah it does, and tbh i personally consider those games to be mostly "immersive sims" rather than RPGs. That being said, the term immersive sim itself is kinda garbage. There's also the argument that Deus Ex 1 specifically has less of a fixed protagonist that it appears at the surface level. You can change their appearance and their name, and iirc the dialogue and C&C in the game does allow you to build on Denton's base personality to a non-insignificant level. I also think there is some validity in what octavius says.

 

[Gerrard]

Puzzles in RPGs require you, the player, to solve them using your own intelligence, and not determined by your characters' stats, therefore games that feature them are not RPGs.

 

[Roguey]

I think JC was intended to be rather "washed out" and have a flat voice, to make him less "fixed".

Yeah, Paul has the same voice actor and he's far more expressive.

 

[JarlFrank]

IIRC initially they even wanted you to be able to make a female JC (that's why they gave him a name of initials rather than something like "Paul") but cut it due to time and budget constraints.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

significantly large portion of this forum doesn't think it is

Plz rmind me what codex goty 2015 was?
A year when fucking AoD was released.

 

[Ol' Willy]

So Witcher 3 is not an RPG.

Twitcher 3 is interactive movie masquerading as RPG. The fact that it won GOTY in 2015, the year when Underrail and AoD were released, is a disgrace and shame for this site.

 

[samuraigaiden]

I don’t like this idea that a fixed protagonist excludes a game from being a RPG. Wizardry 4 comes to mind, but also games that have fixed party composition like The Dark Heart of Uukrul.

Would creating your own character make Witcher 3 more of a RPG? I don’t think so. This fixed x custom protagonist debate steers the discussion away from what really matters: the gameplay.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

significantly large portion of this forum doesn't think it is

Plz rmind me what codex goty 2015 was?
A year when fucking AoD was released.

AoD is not an RPG either so your point is moot

 

[V_K]

Would creating your own character make Witcher 3 more of a RPG?

Depends. I think in that particular case, having a very strongly defined protagonist limited the devs' vision. In theory, if the PC wasn't Geralt, it could have allowed for a bit of build variety. Magic or ranged combat could have been fully developed systems, and weapons other than swords could have played a more prominent role. Still wouldn't be terribly deep, but it could have been something closer to Skyrim.

That said, calling Arx's protagonist fixed is just dumb. The only fixed parts about his are his name, gender and main quest. It's the same as calling QfG's Hero or Gothic's nameless prisoner a fixed protagonist. The fixed aspects are merely cosmetic and bear no effect on gameplay.

Now can we go back to the matter at hand and discuss puzzles?

 

[JarlFrank]

Not even Planescape Torment and Disco Elysium have truly fixed characters btw, especially not PST since you get a lot of stat points to allocate and can change his class during the game.

Fully fixed = not even stat allocation during chargen.

 

[Serious_Business]

So Witcher 3 is not an RPG.

Twitcher 3 is interactive movie masquerading as RPG. The fact that it won GOTY in 2015, the year when Underrail and AoD were released, is a disgrace and shame for this site.

I agree, but then the standards evolve, I suppose. I mean originally this site though Baldur's Gate was mainstream trash compared to Fallout, but now it's hailed as a classic. People joke about this but yes, time will make shitty games classics for some reason. One has to speculate about how these products will be seen in, say, 50 years time ; if they'll be remembered at all ; the ability to resist the passage of time makes a classic, although that isn't necessarily true for modern times. At any rate, Witcher 3 GOTY edition was appreciated because it certainly has strong writing, and somehow that became a criteria for a good crpg - to the point that interactive movie became valid for the genre. I mean, if you look at Fallout, it doesn't have good writing, it's actually pretty bad. Does it matter much? Do crpgs need to be literary experiences? Nope. Maybe there's been a kind of interest in writing from crpg players because they think literature is some kind of evolved, refined form of culture ; meaning that they know very little of it themselves (good or bad), and they think writing betters the gaming experience somehow, or even can make it entirely. You get games as a medium for writing, essentially. Are writers a kind of parasite for game design? You decide.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

I mean originally this site though Baldur's Gate was mainstream trash compared to Fallout, but now it's hailed as a classic.

Citation needed

 

[samuraigaiden]

I have been dwelling into really old topics recently and I did find some remarkable opinions about classic games.

 

[octavius]

So Witcher 3 is not an RPG.

Twitcher 3 is interactive movie masquerading as RPG. The fact that it won GOTY in 2015, the year when Underrail and AoD were released, is a disgrace and shame for this site.

Well, this site repeatedly vote an interactive novel as best CRPG ever...
So it's not a perfect Codexia.

 

[V_K]

Not sure about BG, but I can distinctly remember how Morrowind was received by then-oldschool gamers as huge decline and disappointment compared to Daggerfall.
Even more so, Diablo - that was a swearword back then, the epitome of decline. And now you have folks considering it a classic of ARPGs.

 

[Feargus Jewhart]

The defining trait of an Adventure game are puzzles. 90% of the time it's "use the correct item in the correct situation" kind of puzzles, sometimes it's more abstract ones - but there must be puzzles. They are the main gameplay mechanic for Adventures. Everything else - story, dialog, whatever - is secondary to puzzles. I know that the TellTale decline of recent years have tarnished the genre definition, but can we be better than using it as a standard?

RPGs without combat (or with very weak/easy/unimportant combat) thus are not Adventure games with stats - unless they prominently feature puzzles. Puzzle-heavy RPGs like Wizardry 7, Arx Fatalis or BT4 have much more claim to the title of "Adventure games with stats" than the likes of PST or Disco. Not to mention actual, monocled Adventure games with stats like Quest for Glory series or The Council.

So could we please stop calling games with no puzzles Adventures? It's insulting to the genre, and even more insulting to real RPG/Adventure hybrids that are actually good.

True adventure games barely even exist anymore. Big developers are tagging every single game they churn out as "RPG, adventure, open-world, action". Actual Adventure games, most notably the Tomb Raider series, get a reboot where actual adventuring parts are cut short in favor of action gameplay and the hellbane of modern games, stats and perks. Realistically the adventure genre is pretty much dead.

 

[V_K]

AAA games - sure, but there are arguably more good indie Adventures being released than indie RPGs. At least I've played more of those in recent times.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

repeatedly vote an interactive novel as best CRPG ever...

Did you just insulted Torahment, goy?