Decline Can we please stop calling RPGs without gameplay Adventures?

[KeighnMcDeath]

Not sure about BG, but I can distinctly remember how Morrowind was received by then-oldschool gamers as huge decline and disappointment compared to Daggerfall.
Even more so, Diablo - that was a swearword back then, the epitome of decline. And now you have folks considering it a classic of ARPGs.

What ARPGs were there before Diablo 1? I always had the impression that the ARPG genre was defined by this game.

I've been seeing more "CRPGS" using magic the gathering-like card systems and dice rolls like a board game or yatzee. Weird shit.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Interactive Fiction has some relation to text adventure games, but the term is generally applied to works that lack any gameplay, much less the particular form of gameplay that defines the adventure genre.

Generally by whom? Interactive Fiction means adventure games without graphics as far as I'm concerned, and that's how I see it used. There's also no reason to give up on the "adventure game" genre moniker just because we can't come up with a definitive definition. It's the same situation that we have with RPGs.

Anyway, this thread was started with reference to one particular game, and I said then that the only reason people here are comfortable calling it an adventure game is because on RPG Codex defining an RPG is super srs bsns, but adventure games can be whatever because they don't fall under the jurisdiction of our autism. Gives you an idea of how pretentious some of those people are.

 

[V_K]

because they don't fall under the jurisdiction of our autism

Well they do now

Interactive Fiction has some relation to text adventure games, but the term is generally applied to works that lack any gameplay, much less the particular form of gameplay that defines the adventure genre.

Generally by whom? Interactive Fiction means adventure games without graphics as far as I'm concerned, and that's how I see it used.

Yeah, I'm also a bit weirded out by that statement. IF historically referred to parser-based games, and even the more experimental recent works that might not be games in the sense of not having a winning condition still have gameplay by virtue of, well, having a parser.
The trend of calling visual novels without the visuals IF must not be allowed to take hold.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

True VN have literally no choices. I dl'd a few dragon warrior like porn ones and you read.. click mouse and read rinse and repeat. There were a few branches (like 2) on who you would prefer to fuck/react or how.... made virtually no difference.

A game like Zork or Myst there are far more choices and certainly a lot of puzzles.

Certain Puzzle find the item hidden in the picture games really just flow in one direction with no backtracking. Clear the puzzle go forward to next reading story narrative. Some have inventory and some don't.

I guess some are a mix of walking simulator as well depending in perspective view. More than a few of these are glorified GO FISH! type games.

 

[Bah]

I've been seeing more "CRPGS" using magic the gathering-like card systems and dice rolls like a board game or yatzee. Weird shit.

Yeah, RPGs having dice rolls is kind of weird.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Anyway, this thread was started with reference to one particular game, and I said then that the only reason people here are comfortable calling it an adventure game is because on RPG Codex defining an RPG is super srs bsns, but adventure games can be whatever because they don't fall under the jurisdiction of our autism. Gives you an idea of how pretentious some of those people are.

Yes, I pointed out on more than one occasion (once in this very thread) that Disco Elysium fits into the adventure game genre even more poorly than into the RPG genre. Prestigious Codexers should be careful and consistent in defining other game genres, just as we are with RPGs.

 

[Norfleet]

Yeah, I'm also a bit weirded out by that statement. IF historically referred to parser-based games, and even the more experimental recent works that might not be games in the sense of not having a winning condition still have gameplay by virtue of, well, having a parser.

Yes, but clearly, the parser isn't core to the game. See the Sierra "Quest" series of games that have been made to work without a parser and instead based on clicking. If you want to avoid this alternative label, then they remain "Adventure" by virtue of descent from ADVENT.

 

[Harthwain]

Yes, I pointed out on more than one occasion (once in this very thread) that Disco Elysium fits into the adventure game genre even more poorly than into the RPG genre. Prestigious Codexers should be careful and consistent in defining other game genres, just as we are with RPGs.

The irony is that from mechanical standpoint Disco Elysium fits the RPG genre better than a lot of games that are considered RPGs (which isn't all that surprising for anyone who read the devblog).

The only problem people have with Disco is that you can't be a murderhobo (read: the opportunities for combat as the method of conflict resultion are extremely limited). However, how often the possibility to kill anyone at any time is meaningful?

I recall killing that guy in Torment, who had hoped that engraving his name at the base of the stone would split it. I mean, after hearing that I HAD to check it out! Then there is NEO Scavenger, where you are quite literally a muderhobo, who's wandering around the world, killing other wandering murderhobos with sticks and stones. It's glorious.

Otherwise you avoid killing non-combat-designed people (civilians, for example), because it's wholly meaningless (you don't gain much from killing somebody and usually it makes a lot of people outright hostile towards you). Then there are enemies you're supposed to fight with, and Torment again comes to mind. Does trash combat like that add anything to the game? Not in my opinion. That's why I am not so hard-set on murderhobo being a hard qualifier for a game to be considered an RPG. Unless we're talking about games specifically designed for that. Still, I think Fallout is a perfect middle ground between the two extremes (no combat and combat only).

 

[Absinthe]

Disco Elysium's problem is that it has no gameplay. All the dialogues are basically cosmetic, and all the character advancement and itemization only boils down to how to get +1s to the skill you want at the moment, which really only matters for dialogues. It tries to look like an RPG, but it lacks the depth of character advancement and gameplay systems to be regarded as an RPG. There is basically no form of challenge in Disco Elysium, you realize? Just because you have dice rolls and a skill system doesn't mean you have an RPG, especially when the skill system is really only of cosmetic value.

So no, it does not fit the RPG genre.

 

[Harthwain]

Just because you have dice rolls and a skill system doesn't mean you have an RPG, especially when the skill system is really only of cosmetic value.

So no, it does not fit the RPG genre.

Remind me, what's an RPG?

 

[Absinthe]

First and foremost, it is a game. And a game features gameplay. Which DE does not, frankly.

The Visual Novel descriptor is accurate for a reason.

 

[Harthwain]

First and foremost, it is a game. And a game features gameplay. Which DE does not, frankly.

Neither does Planescape: Torment, apparently.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

There are several related qualities which distinguish RPGs from classic point-and-click adventure games. In the classic adventure genre,

• Character did not have attributes, or any customization.
  • There are no character related challenges (HP loss, skill checks, etc.)
• Failure is uncommon in a PnC adventure game. You either progressed, or you didn't.

Challenges were puzzles, trivia, riddles, application of found items, or both. There really wasn't much failure, because there were no statistical challenges for the character. Only the player was challenged, not the character. The character wasn't challenged, because there was no customization--no role. Dragon's Lair did feature some failed states, but I can't remember many others that had them. Monkey Island had one or two, and Grim Fandango had none. I can't remember any failure states in Day of the Tentacle, Loom, or Sanitarium for that matter. It's been a very long time though. Those two bulleted qualities are going to sort out most from which is which.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[NJClaw]

Disco Elysium's problem is that it has no gameplay. All the dialogues are basically cosmetic, and all the character advancement and itemization only boils down to how to get +1s to the skill you want at the moment, which really only matters for dialogues. It tries to look like an RPG, but it lacks the depth of character advancement and gameplay systems to be regarded as an RPG. There is basically no form of challenge in Disco Elysium, you realize? Just because you have dice rolls and a skill system doesn't mean you have an RPG, especially when the skill system is really only of cosmetic value.

So no, it does not fit the RPG genre.

There are PnP RPG systems without any real form of challenge. Even if I don't like the comparison, I guess you could say that Disco Elysium is to Baldur's Gate what Dungeon World is to Dungeons & Dragons.

 

[V_K]

There are PnP RPG systems without any real form of challenge.

There are many TT games without any challenge, not just RPGs. The point of those are social interactions and improvisation - they don't work as an analogy for a heavily scripted single-player, um, experience.

 

[NJClaw]

There are PnP RPG systems without any real form of challenge.

There are many TT games without any challenge, not just RPGs. The point of those are social interactions and improvisation - they don't work as an analogy for a heavily scripted single-player, um, experience.

The point of some of those RPGs is telling an interesting story, which is exactly what Disco Elysium does. People play different games for different reasons, you can't just reduce everything to improvisation.

 

[Darth Roxor]

playing dress-up is not an rpg

 

[V_K]

The point of some of those RPGs is telling an interesting story

If that story isn't improvised or fails to take the players' improvisation into account, the it's in the wrong business. Should have been a book.
And frankly, I believe the only reason DE isn't a book is that Estonian fiction market is tiny and that no Anglophone publisher would publish a non-Anglophone writer. And judging by the snippets of DE writing I've seen, they would have been 100% right.

 

[Sweeper]

Disco

We can call it whatever you want friend.
Except an RPG.
Because it isn't.