CD Projekt's Cyberpunk 2077 Update 2.0 + Phantom Liberty Expansion Thread

[AwesomeButton]

It's quite funny actually, on my first character I was so into the presentation of the main story that I really took Vik's phrase of "two weeks tops" seriously.

TWO WEEKS TOPS??? OMG I BETTER GET MY FINGER OUT OF MY ARSE AND FIGURE OUT THIS CHIP PROBLEM!!! And on that first character I did absolutely zero open world stuff, and only a few side-quests, only focusing on the 3 MQ parts, getting as far as finishing the first phases of the 3 main branches. In fact, I had almost no cognizance that there was an open world aspect to the game at all up to that point. I assiduously met Takemura on the very evening I got his message to meet, etc., etc.

And I think in some ways that first playthrough was actually a pristine, innocent experience with a high level of engagement and immersion - as some have said, you could have easily made the whole game like that, without any open world aspect, without much in the way of side-levelling reqs, and it would have been a fine cinematic action adventure experience.

But then I discovered the open world, and realized there's no actual time limitations - and that spoiled the experience somewhat (although there was compensating fun in doing the open world stuff).

Yeah that's the whole game in a nutshell, starting out innocently believing that this is an actual world that one can get immersed in, and then having that immersion destroyed by bugs, inconsistent storytelling, shitty AI, game-ruining balance issues, nonsensical characters, stupid Easter eggs, hilarious 'physics', etc

What I mean: compare the degree of mixing story exposition with gameplay systems in Witcher 3 vs in Cyberpunk 2077.

In Witcher 3 a typical quest is a cocktail of little activities, neither of them anything special, or complex, or remarkable - one example scheme would be some dialogue and haggling, some riding, some "follow the red", some dialogue, some combat. You switch these often enough and make each of them last long enough so that the player is entertained without being especially challenged with difficulty. Provide a little branching decision on top, short-term and long-term consequence, and you have a great Witcher 3 quest.

Now try to name quests in Cyberpunk 2077 which sucessfully combine, in a good degree, the following elements - dialogue, driving, hacking, sneaking, "scanning for clues", jump-and-climbing, shooting. There are a number of quests that mix the elements, but at least for me it never feels as good as in Witcher 3. To the extent to which this mixing is well executed, it's in the side missions. The main quest is too much on rails and too much leaning on dialogue compared to the Witcher 3 main quest. As for the gigs - some are well done (I can think of the one with the retrieval of the Samurai record and the car) but inevitably too small-scale compared to Witcher 3 side quests. As for the NCPD concerned citizen tasks - they are just trash combat with some text dump shard acting as a fig leaf, sorry.

V is more akin to the Warden in DAO - lifepaths instead of origins, but otherwise a blank slate.

My understanding of a blank slate is more extreme - the Vault Dweller is a blank slate for me. Yet in Origins there was a lot more paths to what you might become based on your gender and origin combination than anything you can get in CP77, even though CP77 only needed to provide for three origin stories.

I don't think that CDPR compromised by balancing between these two.

I did not mean that it compromises between these two, but that it compromises on both these fronts. One front is C&C - CP77 lacks branching main story and lacks interwovenness of side quests with the main quest, a step back from Witcher 3. The other front is the characterisation - CP77 comes up with excuses to not develop your main character. V's main motivation at the start is "to become rich and famous", which shoehornes all three "origin stories" into a motivation which doesn't necessearily agree with the origins' premises. This motivation soon switches to "try to save myself after my soul being Awakened a generic time bomb curse". Oh what a pity, we were just going to present your character from more viewpoints, but now his motivation is reduced to the most common instinct of every life form - to protect its life functions.

 

[Turjan]

s your build improves game gets easier but never as easy to point where you can just play without saving.

only because of the constant crashes. a level 14 hacker is immortal, no way he'll ever even enter combat.

The game crashed exactly twice on me in well over 100 hours, once with 1.03 (release version) and once when saving the first time with 1.04.

the game crashes on me with a 90% chance on hitting tab in the first few seconds. if it survives, it has a low chance of crashing any time, while i have tab down, aim switches from a camera and a human. i can replicate this behaviour at will. i launched the game perhaps almost a hundred times because i'm exceptionally stubborn, before i "fuck this shit" and gave up altogether with this dull piece of gosa.

Sure, but that doesn't seem to be the norm. Do you have an AMD rig? No SSD?

 

[Dodo1610]

Crazy this game actually has alternative quest solutions for the backgrounds, I could walk into the Arasaka Industrial complex by convincing a guard that I am still an Araska Counter-Intelligence officer and upload the hack without being bothered.
Why isn't there more stuff like this?

 

[Turjan]

blank slate generic character.

Black slate means there should be some room to write shit on there is very little in V's case.

Oh, there is plenty of room. Issue is that there is nothing to write therein due to the lack of narrative C&C offered by the game.

This is all a matter of perspective though. I see a white piece of paper and say that it is blank since there's nothing written on it while you argue that the piece of paper is fully painted in white.

Do you consider Shepard blank-slate too? Because V is more defined than Shepard whilst having the same customization options.

To me Shepard's personality seems much more defined, although I'm not sure how to 'objectively' qualify that. V just seems like a bland average Joe ergo a blank slate.

He is a bit of a (wo)man without characteristics. That's where the condescending talks by Rogue come in. Some people complained V himself would act too edgy, but I never saw that.

 

[Tyrr]

Doing all the side stuff in Watson before finishing act 1 can lead to some inconsistencies.

 

[Quillon]

blank slate generic character.

Black slate means there should be some room to write shit on there is very little in V's case.

Oh, there is plenty of room. Issue is that there is nothing to write therein due to the lack of narrative C&C offered by the game.

This is all a matter of perspective though. I see a white piece of paper and say that it is blank since there's nothing written on it while you argue that the piece of paper is fully painted in white.

Do you consider Shepard blank-slate too? Because V is more defined than Shepard whilst having the same customization options.

To me Shepard's personality seems much more defined, although I'm not sure how to 'objectively' qualify that. V just seems like a bland average Joe ergo a blank slate.

Shepard starting out as a commander and V's just a punk, yes being just another choom in this setting seems less defined by default but V is still a defined choom that we CAN'T personalize, call it generic or whatever but blank-slate it definetely is not.

 

[Turjan]

Doing all the side stuff in Watson before finishing act 1 can lead to some inconsistencies.

Now I wonder whether things in your apartment change during the game. I should check whether the "Vote Peralez" poster had been hanging there all the time.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

V is still a defined choom that we CAN'T personalize, call it generic or whatever but blank-slate it definetely is not.

Well, neither does the game personalize him. He has a biography and there's a storyline to follow, but there's not much in the way of personality or retrospection towards his own actions showing through.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

s your build improves game gets easier but never as easy to point where you can just play without saving.

only because of the constant crashes. a level 14 hacker is immortal, no way he'll ever even enter combat.

The game crashed exactly twice on me in well over 100 hours, once with 1.03 (release version) and once when saving the first time with 1.04.

the game crashes on me with a 90% chance on hitting tab in the first few seconds. if it survives, it has a low chance of crashing any time, while i have tab down, aim switches from a camera and a human. i can replicate this behaviour at will. i launched the game perhaps almost a hundred times because i'm exceptionally stubborn, before i "fuck this shit" and gave up altogether with this dull piece of gosa.

Sure, but that doesn't seem to be the norm. Do you have an AMD rig? No SSD?

that's the truly scary part: intel and nvidia, on ssd.

 

[Turjan]

that's the truly scary part: intel and nvidia, on ssd.

Interesting. Same here, but all rather old.

 

[AwesomeButton]

My impression is that 1st-person conversations can provide benefits with blank-slate silent protagonists, but once you start part-defining the player character (and V is very much that) and voicing them, the consistency gains start to wane in contrast to the dramatic assets of cinematic conversations. When you factor in Cyberpunk's character customisation and equipment options, it's an even bigger loss.

Yes, exactly this.

What's interesting is that you see a similar story with other embodiment-heavy games, like Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Warhorse went so far as to include helmet visor overlays and 1st-person horse riding for the sake of putting you in Henry's shoes, but they still popped the camera to 3rd-person angles for conversations.

The inherent problem is that of POV angle. First person may have seemed very immersive in the dawn of 3d games when the alternative was isometric. But no sane person will say that limiting his field of vision makes the experience more "immersive", in a modern narrative-heavy interactive movie-game. The problem of viewing angle in 1st person can only be solved with VR equipment but then there is the slight problem that most of the population would suffer from dizzyness.

I think the best compromise is that in the Hitman games - third person camera which follows the player character much more closely, nearly over his shoulder, and when you take aim, it's actually over your shoulder. GTA and RDR2 have good examples of the camera getting closer in more "story exposition" moments during a mission and then going back when a wider viewing angle would help the player. The school of thought that parrots "You ARE Gordon Freeman" as if that makes it true, has always been an excuse of technical limitations.

 

[Quillon]

Doing all the side stuff in Watson before finishing act 1 can lead to some inconsistencies.

Donno what the inconsistency here is but in my game Peralez won the election according to TV but to Stanley on the radio Holt's still in the lead

 

[Turjan]

I think the best compromise is that in the Hitman games - third person camera which follows the player character much more closely, nearly over his shoulder, and when you take aim, it's actually over your shoulder. GTA and RDR2 have good examples of the camera getting closer in more "story exposition" moments during a mission and then going back when a wider viewing angle would help the player. The school of thought that parrots "You ARE Gordon Freeman" as if that makes it true, has always been an excuse of technical limitations.

I'm actually used to moving in a game in third person while doing the fights in first person perspective. That's the ideal setup for me. I can see that this spoils stealth play to some extent though.
Regarding conversations, I don't have any strong opinions. There are advantages and disadvantages for anything you choose. This game seems to use third person perspective in a few scripted conversations.

 

[alyvain]

Does anyone else find it confusing that the game has two Megabuilding H10 locations? One of them is the location of your apartment. The other obviously isn't.

I think that's a mistake. There is a fast travel "Megabuidliung H10" location, but it's actually H11 or something.

 

[Turjan]

Does anyone else find it confusing that the game has two Megabuilding H10 locations? One of them is the location of your apartment. The other obviously isn't.

I think that's a mistake. There is a fast travel "Megabuidliung H10" location, but it's actually H11 or something.

I see. I should probably look what the markings on the building say.

 

[Tyrr]

Doing all the side stuff in Watson before finishing act 1 can lead to some inconsistencies.

Now I wonder whether things in your apartment change during the game. I should check whether the "Vote Peralez" poster had been hanging there all the time.

That one appears after you did his quest (not sure after the first or second). At least it isn't there in act 1.

Doing all the side stuff in Watson before finishing act 1 can lead to some inconsistencies.

Donno what the inconsistency here is but in my game Peralez won the election according to TV but to Stanley on the radio Holt's still in the lead

The old mayor is still alive at this point.

 

[alyvain]

remember the struggle

 

[Mefi]

Now I wonder whether things in your apartment change during the game. I should check whether the "Vote Peralez" poster had been hanging there all the time.

Other than the cat and Misty's dreamcatcher, I know that

Spoiler

the stolen painting from space appears on your cupboard door while you have it in your inventory and there's a Militech box from banging that Militech woman

. Pretty sure I saw a model car (Nomad related?) which isn't there on two saves I've got in/close to apartment.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

However, given how slow the AI is reacting, you can often fool it by sneaking as fast as possible. Enemies often don't discover the fast movement, so you can get to the next cover easily. Sometimes it feels to me like an ostrich game. They won't see you if you don't look.

This is silly as hell, but it's kind of fun as there's some skill in exploiting the slow reaction times, especially if you upgrade your stealth tree a bit with the "slower reaction" perks. At a few points, I've been able to do some impossible shit like taking out enemies in front of other enemies just by exploiting how long it takes to for them to react. It's not in any way realistic, but it's also very easy to fuck up if not timed properly, so it's not really godlike either. Stealth, in general, is very godlike if you are patient, but if you were to do every single mission of this game purely stealth it would be like a 200+ hour game, which......fuck that.

The biggest truly godlike feature in the game that the devs need to nerf is hacking into cameras and killing enemies with quickhacks 1 by 1. You can just hack into a camera system and go from camera to camera killing enemies one by one with quickhacks. If they notice a dead body they will change their behavior and spread out a bit more, but the way they do it is very slow and ineffective so it's rarely a threat. The devs need to add a feature where they will notice and either come immediately to where you are or just shut down the camera system entirely.

 

[Gargaune]

What's interesting is that you see a similar story with other embodiment-heavy games, like Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Warhorse went so far as to include helmet visor overlays and 1st-person horse riding for the sake of putting you in Henry's shoes, but they still popped the camera to 3rd-person angles for conversations.

The inherent problem is that of POV angle. First person may have seemed very immersive in the dawn of 3d games when the alternative was isometric. But no sane person will say that limiting his field of vision makes the experience more "immersive", in a modern narrative-heavy interactive movie-game. The problem of viewing angle in 1st person can only be solved with VR equipment but then there is the slight problem that most of the population would suffer from dizzyness.

I think the best compromise is that in the Hitman games - third person camera which follows the player character much more closely, nearly over his shoulder, and when you take aim, it's actually over your shoulder. GTA and RDR2 have good examples of the camera getting closer in more "story exposition" moments during a mission and then going back when a wider viewing angle would help the player. The school of thought that parrots "You ARE Gordon Freeman" as if that makes it true, has always been an excuse of technical limitations.

Not really onboard here, I'd say "narrative-heavy interactive movie-game" is a key factor. I think using the 1st-person perspective does add "immersion" in the sense that it enables embodiment, a core element of the Immersive Sim genre which we also enjoy a strong plot in. I'm in no way averse to 3rd-person cameras, I like TW3's just the way it is, but I dislike Montreal DX's 3rd-person stealth even as I prefer the 3rd-person cinematic conversation sequences. (An interesting side note here, DX4 does actually feature some very minor 1st-person cinematics, such as when Jensen's getting his papers checked at the metro.) As for Cyberpunk itself, I can respect the aspiration of doing (nearly) everything 1st-person and it does work out very well in some sequences, like those Juan_Carlo pointed out, but more often there isn't enough going on to offset the loss of characterisation from something like TW3.

It's a tricky matter of framing the relationship between player and character for a given experience and yet, while shifting perspectives might introduce a certain disconnect, it's one that I can stomach - a single over-the-shoulder perspective might be the most consistent, but I wouldn't want to play Deus Ex that way while, at the same time, I wouldn't want its dramatic character sequences to play out in first person. I feel like that inconsistency is a small price to pay for letting the experience get the best of both worlds.

 

[Gargaune]

Does anyone else find it confusing that the game has two Megabuilding H10 locations? One of them is the location of your apartment. The other obviously isn't.

Someone at CDPR right now: "Oh, shit..."

 

[Zero Credibility]

The biggest truly godlike feature in the game that the devs need to nerf is hacking into cameras and killing enemies with quickhacks 1 by 1. You can just hack into a camera system and go from camera to camera killing enemies one by one with quickhacks. If they notice a dead body they will change their behavior and spread out a bit more, but the way they do it is very slow and ineffective so it's rarely a threat. The devs need to add a feature where they will notice and either come immediately to where you are or just shut down the camera system entirely.

For start why not disable camera switching for hacking a camera, limiting you to that one you hacked into? And only if you have access to a security terminal can you view every camera.

 

[Ibn Sina]

blank slate generic character.

Black slate means there should be some room to write shit on there is very little in V's case.

Oh, there is plenty of room. Issue is that there is nothing to write therein due to the lack of narrative C&C offered by the game.

This is all a matter of perspective though. I see a white piece of paper and say that it is blank since there's nothing written on it while you argue that the piece of paper is fully painted in white.

Do you consider Shepard blank-slate too? Because V is more defined than Shepard whilst having the same customization options.

To me Shepard's personality seems much more defined, although I'm not sure how to 'objectively' qualify that. V just seems like a bland average Joe ergo a blank slate.

Shepard is much more of a bland superjoe both male and female version. Very monotone and serious sounding all the time. V has much more emotional range. Some of the quips he says are fucking gold.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

The inherent problem is that of POV angle. First person may have seemed very immersive in the dawn of 3d games when the alternative was isometric. But no sane person will say that limiting his field of vision makes the experience more "immersive", in a modern narrative-heavy interactive movie-game.

It depends on the game. First-person has rarely been used in films just because it's incredibly restricted and, up until just recently when cameras were small enough to just strap to someone's head, was really difficult to pull off technically. Video games run into the same problems with first-person storytelling that films run into: it can be disorienting, it's difficult to identify with a character if we can't see them reacting to things, and it can be plain hard to convey some narrative details that are much easier to show via 3rd person (like, for example, things hidden from the POV character, stuff characters are doing off screen, and etc). There have been a few creative solutions to this in film and TV (Peep Show, for example, was entirely first person, but it would jump from character to character, so it wasn't restricted to just one person). However, I think video games, as a medium, are much more suited to fully FP storytelling than films.

Personally, I think its POV perspective is integral enough to the game's themes that it would hurt Cyberpunk to jump to 3rd person at any point in its narrative. Driving I don't mind, as it's mostly just a concession to the fact that it's much easier to navigate in a car in 3rd person. However, beyond that, Cyberpunk is a game about blurred identities and the threat of dissolution of the self allowed by the game's technologies, whether they are the relic that allows for Johnny to exist in V's brain, or Braindance technologies, or the slow and gradual replacement of the human body with technology (one recalls the Wizard of Oz's tin man's story about how he started replacing his parts with tin as he accidentally hacked them off until, one day, he had hacked all his human bits off and there was nothing but tin left). The game very effectively uses its first person perspective at various points to underscore these themes, especially in the bits that blur Johnny/V together to the point that you aren't immediately sure which one you are playing. Given that, it's kind of fitting that the player character rarely sees themselves anywhere in the game world, only at key points when they actively look into a mirror. Some of this might have been some weird limitation of the engine (the lack of mirrors, probably, although it's definitely strange that in a game so replete with beautiful reflections that seem to easily reflect everything in great detail, there are almost no places where the player can see themselves), but I think the decision to stick to first person in all other areas was intentional.

Kingdom Come wasn't a game about post-humanism, so I didn't really care or even notice when it shifted to third person for dialog. However, just switching to cinematic third person cut scenes at key moments was a laziest and easiest solution to the problem. The best, most innovative, and, I think, hardest solution is to find a way to make first person work with a narrative in a compelling way. I think Cyberpunk goes further toward accomplishing that than any game has in a long time, even if it fails at times (and it definitely does fail at times....I'm not at all claiming it's perfect in the way it tells its story, just that I don't think switching to 3rd person would have been the best solution to it).

 

[Turjan]

Does anyone else find it confusing that the game has two Megabuilding H10 locations? One of them is the location of your apartment. The other obviously isn't.

I think that's a mistake. There is a fast travel "Megabuidliung H10" location, but it's actually H11 or something.

I just looked, and yes, it's actually building H11 on the building model itself. Which means it's easy to fix (just the name of the fast travel point).