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Children of a Dead Earth

Discussion in 'Space Games' started by vean, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    The best thing about ship editor is rolling your own combat designs (which starts in the next mission). Even with built-in layout limitations it gives you a lot of freedom and massive amounts of room for creativity.

    Module editor is great, and comes in handy when you need some particular thing game doesn't provide or want to modify an existing module for specific task, to remove an infuriating flaw or just make it this tiny bit better in an obvious way, but trying to roll your own highly optimized designs requires sperging deeply, at which point you *will* hit the limits of numerical simulation and end up with something unphysical. :(
     
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  2. RhodokMasterRaceOfficial Savant

    RhodokMasterRaceOfficial
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    The sperging isn't that deep, tbh. It's all just sliders. Reactor design isn't that hard when you realise that the best designs are always inefficient ones with 2500K+ output temperature.
     
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  3. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    Yeah, in the end it's just multivariate optimization, which isn't all that interesting (even considering bringing your own goal function) compared to building stuff, but even then...
    ...even such seemingly straightforward problems aren't exactly unambiguous.

    Hot reactors are all fine and dandy, letting you waste much less mass on radiators and ending up much more mass efficient even if they don't look like on paper - right until the moment when someone flashes you with a nuke or laser and all your radiators, which were already running on the verge of melting during normal operation, just disperse into a rain of incandescent slag.
    :M
    And you still have a few gigawatts of waste heat on your hands that now have nowhere to go.
     
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  4. RhodokMasterRaceOfficial Savant

    RhodokMasterRaceOfficial
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    At least as far as lasers are concerned, this is why you use ship designs that hide radiators with the hull. The two I've seen are broadsiding ships which are only three quarters armoured (saves mass, adding DV), and forward-facing ships with a slightly wider front section. The broadside hides radiators by putting them on the side that faces away in combat, the lance ship hides them by using short but wide radiators, and placing them on the thinner rear half.

    Against nuclear weapons I kind of think you're in the shitter no matter what you do. Nukes are basically king of the cage and I don't think using cold reactors will really save you here. I'm going to try building gauss drones that fire nuclear projectiles soon.
     
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  5. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    I have managed to build an "export" variant of my destroyer (vanilla modules only), that can still solo Vesta in full CQB mode, without resorting to missile/drone spam or even counter intercepts with nukes/drones (although it does have some missile launch capability) or even its special counter-missile capability where it can scram the reactors (it has backup RTGs that can sustain the crew modules + conventional CIWS), fold radiators and rely on relatively weak countermeasures and, failing that, CIWS fire. It does end up a lot worse for the wear and it's substantially shittier than proper variants (even though they are near-vanilla themselves, with some simple but effective modifications of vanilla weapons, some custom payload firing guns, customized propulsion and vanilla power generation and cooling), but it works and it's a full, general purpose ship comparable to Gunship (with slightly more delta-v, even with vanilla fuel tanks and without my methane MPDs for cruising), but much more agile and with more firepower (but less armor) rather than some mission specific contrivance (like cheap-ass drone launching station without any delta-v or any direct combat capability).

    I have also built a variant using NTRs for RCS, resulting in superior endurance without much sacrifices in agility, but ended up having to replace half of my fire control crew with reactor guys.
    :troll:

    Anyway, I really need to get into custom powerplants, and radiators, because vanilla stuff I'm using is holding me back. I also need to work on radiator hiding because so far my go-to tactics is just having *some* radiators left after the battle (with vanilla temperatures you don't really have enough safe room for radiators if you want firepower anyway), and I'm losing them left and right, plus mass penalty hurts.

    As for the nukes, as long as you don't take multiple Mt point blank they can be quite survivable, so I'm still worrying about having radiators afterwards. Anyway, since the last patch a lot of numerical loopholes have been closed and as the result launching any substantial payload from EM guns is a massive PITA. Nukes can also be intercepted with counternukes or shot down and my ships typically have non-gimballed NTRs mixed with gimballed ones to not end up mobility killed even after tanking a nuke.

    I have also made some interesting payloads (mostly gun launched and lacking own propulsion as adding blast launchers to missile ends up with it thinking that it's a drone and not homing by default) that are quite good at coring ships - one is basically micronuke with some blast launched osmium long rod penetrators on the front and small, blast launched flak charge on the back for some additional, wide-cone sweep, that tends to core ships without making large holes (I have upgraded it by using much smaller micronuke I found on workshop, for much lighter payload) and another one consisting of shell blast launching (backwards, at minimal velocity) a micronuke missile along with kinetic one equipped with a pair of long, dense, filamentous radiators to maximize affected hull area. The idea is to make big enough holes for nuke to fly through and flash ship's insides - micronuke is launched a bit later and further backwards to ensure it follows the KKV. Seems to work (unlike all my previous iterations of kinetic/nuke coring tandem), but needs further testing.

    Also built a refurbished civilian liner variant of my destroyer for lulz.
     
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  6. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    Built a light attack craft (1kt, 2MW reactor power, two relatively OP for their and craft's size NTR engines) that, with good intercept vector and commands in tactical phase, plus a tiny bit of luck can take on a gunship and win.
     
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  7. RhodokMasterRaceOfficial Savant

    RhodokMasterRaceOfficial
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    In fairness the gunship is pretty poorly designed. It's only used as a yardstick because it's the strongest "vanilla" thing. Even that's debatable imo since a fleet carrier or siloship in the right hands could erase it.

    Did anybody ever run any CoaDE design tournaments?
     
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  8. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    Siloship or a fleet carrier don't make good yardsticks, though, because they are designed for missile/drone spam and are going to be easier once you finally get to coming there and punching them in the dick (granted, fleet carrier is almost a gunship in its own right, but still not as strong).

    Vanilla ships in general are relatively under-equipped and not very manoeuvrable - in addition to some retarded module placement often resulting in "shoot here for Michael Bay", thankfully gunship is only mildly affected, the lulziest, by far, is hiveship, though siloship is also prone to fatal hilarity, sometimes even self-inflicted - I have seen it blowing itself up more than once around Vesta, like it was a piece of Ork engineering.
    It's quite staggering when you compare Main Belt Extraction mission with default vanilla fleet, where it ends up in prolonged engagement that may even end up with badly scarred gunship chasing your badly scarred ships around the moonlet, and with a well designed player ship built for direct engagement when it's generally decided by a massive alpha strike tearing gunship to pieces (ripping off the entire rear 1/3 with reactors and engines does count as "disabling" for me) or at least sandblasting guns, radiators and engines off it along with most of its hull thickness, while simultaneously trying not to get hit (at least not too much). Even more staggering is when you pit two such designs against each other - and I'm speaking of almost vanilla stuff, with vanilla power generation, not multi-GW stuff that lits up nearby celestial bodies with its radiators (seriously) and annihilates anything venturing within Mm from it with streams of pure lag.

    And I'm not even doing proper autistic optimization metagame - if only because I object to my spaceships being massive armoured space dildos, a bunch of launchers wrapped around fuel tank and an MPD with some wire (with optional soda can on top) or massively beradiatored flashlights held together by hope and barely strong enough to sustain tidal forces when orbiting an asteroid.
    No, I want my ships to look like "Imma fuck you up" and act on their promise up close and personal, to be versatile and to carry most of their armour in their fuel tanks, with the remainder relying more on good arrangement than pure thickness.
    When engineering I am mostly tweaking my ships in terms of arrangement of individual parts or making complex gun payloads, sometimes tweak some gun or engine to better suit my needs or to get rid of infuriating flaws it has.
    Given those considerations, my ships are doing quite well.

    You can find a few videos on YT.
    I am not an MP guy, but given that this game is effectively massive engineering dick measuring contest, it would really benefit from actual MP.
    AI is inherently dumb and can't be expected to make a good use of anything more sophisticated than "stick all the shooty bits on the part you wish turned towards enemy and hope for the best".
     
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  9. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    Bumpdate, to not let it sink in the sea of :popamole:
     
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  10. ERYFKRAD Barbarian Patron

    ERYFKRAD
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    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Wonder if this game has acquired any actual academic interest.
     
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  11. Drax Arcane

    Drax
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    That blog of his is noice. I loved the articles.
     
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  12. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    I have recently found a way to emulate continuous rod munitions - can easily cut stock ships into pieces.
    :smug:
     
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  13. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    The results:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    Some cool shit ships by yours truly.

    Core components only (in no small part because lack of unique identification for custom workshop modules results in hilarious dependency hell where everything overwrites everything else if it has the same name), so relatively grounded and wimpy compared to true manifestations of deep space autism (no multi-GW powerplants, compact diamond NTRs, huge coilguns firing at hundreds of km/s, massive lasers, micromissiles or creative munitions like the ones pictured above), but should still kick much ass compared to stock vessels.
     
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  15. Beowulf Arcane

    Beowulf
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    How is this still in General Gaming?
    That is a game that can be called a true space game, and one of the best in the genre in recent years.
     
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  16. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    Mods ain't gonna mod, apparently.
    +M
     
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  17. Burning Bridges Enviado de meu SM-G3502T usando Tapatalk

    Burning Bridges
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    Codex likes his games in neat [​IMG] categories like "Space and assorted faggotry that no mod currently understands"
     
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  18. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    Stuff I made (now with pics):

    Edit:
    Most stuff has been modernized/replaced, so most pics are gone/outdated


    Gryphon clas frigate:
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1362436412
    Medium size warship, agile and with a lot of firepower. Can kill 5 laser frigates at once. A bit more delta-v than gunship, and half its mass.

    Gryphon class, long range:
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1374794326
    Gryphon modified to more closely match Laser Frigate's role (but still not quite there). More mass (tankage mostly), slightly different armament, better delta-v. Similar performance to basic Gryphon.

    Dragon class gunship (300MW version):

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1362435835
    My Original Ship(TM). Started as laser frigate with basically all the components rearranged and replaced multiple times. Ended as gunship-size monstrosity (but somewhat cheaper - fits into Main Belt Extraction), with 2.5x the power, superior manoeuvrability, hideous amounts of various armaments and better delta-v. Eats gunships for breakfast (doesn't need substantial micro to beat 5 simultaneously), soloes Vesta. Looks cool.

    Leviathan class (fleet) carrier:
    pics outdated (open)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1371086181
    Slightly let down by awfulness of stock missiles and drones, it still takes 1.5x more stingers than fleet carrier, a single additional wing of beam drones, a large bunch of various missiles including 10 devastators and 9 13MW lasers to improve point defence. Basically a fleet carrier, missile schooner, almost whole support carrier, three whole cutters and a bit of a siloship all rolled into one. For slightly less than fleet carrier's cost and mass fitting into FC's mass rounded up to nearest kiloton. Better delta-v too.

    10kt methane tanker:
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1369738017
    For when you need to support things like smallish (1kt) deployment into Neptune's low polar orbit and want to use methane for that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
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  19. potatojohn Arcane

    potatojohn
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    That's very pretty. Looks like a high-end space opera book cover.
     
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  20. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    ...and then there was MOAR:

    Wyvern class destroyer:

    Beats 5 Laser Frigates (can rapidly melt all their crew radiators and then just shoot them up at its leisure), 100MW laser plus general laser-heavy armament, same deltaV as LF, 8kt mass, stock components only.

    Edit: Broken beyond recovery by the latest patch; discontinued.

    And yet it's all made of stuff that has at least been prototyped IRL.
    :obviously:
     
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  21. RhodokMasterRaceOfficial Savant

    RhodokMasterRaceOfficial
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    Why hexagon and not cylinder? You could cut mass by going cylinder.
     
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  22. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    The mass penalty for hex or pent is actually quite low and polygonal armour is so far the only way to implement efficient roll thrusters, even without gimbaling - I have tested the difference in one of my ships and it was some 40m/s delta-v for dropping rollabout time to 1/3 - well worth it, IMO. Plus it looks badass.

    And if you are impacted from the side, it gives you better protection near the centerline, as long as you are oriented edge-on. You can also hide radiators better behind blisters if you're into this sort of thing.
     
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  23. RhodokMasterRaceOfficial Savant

    RhodokMasterRaceOfficial
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    Oh, I actually never even thought about that. That's interesting and, yeah, definitely worth the extra mass.
     
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  24. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    If we could put RCS thrusters at an angle to the hull, then it wouldn't be needed, but the question of handling impacts to the broadside and radiator hiding would remain.

    Also, for wrapping around single internal component cyllindrical is obviously most efficient, but a cluster would benefit from mixed: cylindrical walls where hull wraps around single component and flat panels in between. This isn't implemented - currently polygonal is based on a polygon circumscribed on a circle containing all the internals - but I hope it will.
     
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  25. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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