Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

[Fenris 2.0]

well, let's try a drunken Translation at Christmas Eve - Happy Fucking Christmas Folks:


DSA-Game: Some Players and Critics hold Planescape even today in highest Regards, even if the commercial Success was never enough for a Sequel or even a similar Game. In the second half the game gets very linear. There are Plotholes and Inconsistencies in the Story, i.E. the unfinished Romance with the thieving Tiefling Annah or the Diary of the Succubus Grace, wich you always carry around, but never can read. Also there is a superfluous ini-Entry CD5="" wich makes you wonder (Planescape come with 4 CDs at the first Release). It was planned to add a lot more Stuff, wasn't it ?

GH: Chris and Colin, as good as they were as Designers, had a few extreme Weaknesses. They were extremly disorganized and slow. Because of this there was more Content intended then what made it into the Game. At a certain Point I had to use the Thumbscrews on them and had to explain to them that the game has to be done at a certain Date, even if this meant that some Changes had to be done, like cutting some subplots and so on. Naturally I didn't enjoy that, but I got enormous pressure from the Interplay Management at this time, wich then lead to my Resignation there. My Goal was that the Game doesen't get cut in a Way that it looses it's meaning and gets totally crippled only because Interplay wanted to keep the Release Date and the Accounting Quarter. Because of this I kept on fighting till the Game hit the Betaphase and then resigned.


Edit:
GH is Guido Henkel the Mastermind behind RoA and the Face of the Nameless One on the Cover, I remember that I have read this Interview back in the Days :D

Bad Spellling eh, oh well, sue me

 

[Neanderthal]

After readin Last Rites pitch document I were amazed how much on it they got into game.

 

[Fenix]

Where can I read it?

 

[Neanderthal]

Where can I read it?

Can't remember where I read it now, mighta been Sorcerer's Place but not sure.

 

[Fairfax]

Where can I read it?

Here.

 

[boobio]

Who do your think Chris voted for?

 

[Prime Junta]

Who do your think Chris voted for?

Ravel... Kreia... Mebbeth... Grieving Mother... see a pattern here?

 

[Fairfax]

He talks about it here:



26:44 in case the link doesn't work.

He says the best thing about Dishonored 2 is how Arkane designs weapons, and that some of the weapons could've had entire games designed around them. He also says Bethesda should combine Arkane's weapon design and an open world like Elder Scrolls or Fallout.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

The only thing Bethesda should is not.

 

[Grotesque]

so he has time to play Dishonored 2 but no time to play Arcanum despite telling time and time again he'll get to it when he'll have time.
this motherfucker....

 

[Fairfax]

I was checking the doc with the interview, and it's at 10k words with all questions I've asked so far and 80+ Codex user questions. However, I still haven't asked half of my questions and he hasn't answered any of the Codex questions.
The Sawyer one has ~17.3k words by comparison. Unless MCA cuts it short, this one will have more than 20k when it's all said and done, which would make it a novella by Hugo/Nebula Awards standards (17.5-40k words).

 

[Jedi Exile]

so he has time to play Dishonored 2 but no time to play Arcanum despite telling time and time again he'll get to it when he'll have time.
this motherfucker....

He works on Prey, so he needs to know Arkane games well. It's a good thing. It would be even better, if he played Arx Fatalis.

 

[Infinitron]

I was checking the doc with the interview, and it's at 10k words with all questions I've asked so far and 80+ Codex user questions. However, I still haven't asked half of my questions and he hasn't answered any of the Codex questions.
The Sawyer one has ~17.3k words by comparison. Unless MCA cuts it short, this one will have more than 20k when it's all said and done, which would make it a novella by Hugo/Nebula Awards standards (17.5-40k words).

Yeesh. You may want to start thinking about what images you're going to put in that, so you don't have to gather them up all at once when the interview is done. Sounds like it could need 20 or more of them.

 

[Rev]

Fairfax, I already made some questions in the specific thread you made a while ago, but I replayed KotOR II recently and wanted to ask him if he think that the game has a flaw in its design in that it punishes the player for pursuing the grey road.
Because, aside from the way the systems and the light/dark side meter are made that gives you bonuses for going to one extreme or the other, there are also places that you cannot access unless you are strong either in the light side or in the dark side (such as the cave in Korriban), which I found out when trying a new "neutral" path and which is a bit weird considering how the game goes out of its way to explore different directions for the SW setting, trying to overcome the simple dicothomy between good and evil and make the player reflect about the nature of the Force. Was that intentional or just an oversight?

 

[Fairfax]

Yeesh. You may want to start thinking about what images you're going to put in that, so you don't have to gather them up all at once when the interview is done. Sounds like it could need 20 or more of them.

I will, but the pics need a context. I'll do it later on.

Fairfax, I already made some questions in the specific thread you made a while ago, but I replayed KotOR II recently and wanted to ask him if he think that the game has a flaw in its design in that it punishes the player for pursuing the grey road.
Because, aside from the way the systems and the light/dark side meter are made that gives you bonuses for going to one extreme or the other, there are also places that you cannot access unless you are strong either in the light side or in the dark side (such as the cave in Korriban), which I found out when trying a new "neutral" path and which is a bit weird considering how the game goes out of its way to explore different directions for the SW setting, trying to overcome the simple dicothomy between good and evil and make the player reflect about the nature of the Force. Was that intentional or just an oversight?

I've already sent him the user questions, but that's a pretty good one, so I'll ask it along with mine.

 

[Rev]

Thanks, Fairfax. I can't rate posts yet, so I can only give you this:

Anyhow, I'm particularly interested in the non-systemic example such as the cave, because the systems were made by BioWare and Obsidian didn't want (nor had the time) to redo everything entirely so I assume that the reasons why the game push people to one side of the Force is mainly that, while cutting out a location that shed more light on the Mandalorian Wars background of the Exile and also foreshadows what's to come with Kreia and the companions (and is full of interesting stuff, in general) is a more curious choice.

 

[Shadenuat]

Yeah it's a good question, it's surprising how little content (actually, none) you get if you try to stay neutral - and I tried it in both KOTORs. (I think there are some items like a robe or something for neutral characters, but that's it)

You also get very weak because cost for force powers is tied to your alignment.

 

[Rev]

Yeah it's a good question, it's surprising how little content (actually, none) you get if you try to stay neutral - and I tried it in both KOTORs. (I think there are some items like a robe or something for neutral characters, but that's it)

It's not that surprising in the first KotOR, since BioWare went for a more traditional Star Wars story with a clearly evil faction vs a good one and didn't have any interest in exploring new paths beyond Jedi and Sith. I mean, they put Jolee Bindo which was supposed to be a grey Jedi, but all in all he was quite a good guy and beyond that it wasn't their focus to examine a "neutral" way or anything like that.

 

[Fairfax]

It's a bigger problem in KOTOR2, because while you get stuff like this in the story, the gameplay (for the most part) punishes you for being neutral. You do get the grey crystal, which is much better than the light/dark ones, but one major downside is not having access to prestige classes, for instance. There's also the cave you mentioned, plus the Force power costs, unique items, etc.
It's interesting because MCA did prevent that from being an issue with Visas. You don't have to be aligned to either side to recruit her: you need 50 alignment points, so you get them regardless of alignment. The problem is that it takes much longer to recruit her if you stay neutral, but at least you're not locked out of any content. He could've done the same to the cave, but much like other flaws, it probably all comes down to the game's troubled development.

 

[Rev]

I had forgot about the prestige classes, that's another massive malus for going grey, while the Force Power costs isn't really that much of a deal because after halfway through you have so much Force Points and are so OP in general that it won't matter anyway (plus by being neutral you can use whichever powers you want without maluses). About Visas, I remember that the video with her and Nihilus is only played after you get a strong lean toward LS or DS... you can also get it by being neutral at the cost of having to wait more time?
Another LS/DS-related matter in the game is whether you end up with Mira or Hanharr, although I guess that the game only let you unlock Hanharr if you are on the Sith path.

I tend to agree that most of these flaws are probably caused by the troubled development of the game and not intentional (at least not entirely). They probably had more pressing matters and in the end forgot about correcting those issues or didn't have the time to do so.
Still, a shame MCA and the team had to rush the game, it could've been a true masterpiece like Torment instead of the flawed gem it turned out to be.

 

[Shadenuat]

It's not that surprising in the first KotOR, since BioWare went for a more traditional Star Wars story with a clearly evil faction vs a good one

Jolee is more or less orthodox "grey jedi", guy outside of the order that does things "his way" but not evil - basically Qui Gon type. It's not deep but it's a known thing in SW expanded universe and many players wanted to play one probably.

 

[Rev]

It's not that surprising in the first KotOR, since BioWare went for a more traditional Star Wars story with a clearly evil faction vs a good one

Jolee is more or less orthodox "grey jedi", guy outside of the order that does things "his way" but not evil - basically Qui Gon type. It's not deep but it's a known thing in SW expanded universe and many players wanted to play one probably.

He doesn't see eye to eye with the Jedi Council on some issues, but he's still a good guy in his heart and complain only when you act evil, not to mention the fact that he opposes you if you go to the dark side. I'm not complaining about the character (in fact, I like him more than the other K1 companions, except for HK-47), anyway: the first KotOR is not about shades of grey or moral ambiguity, so it wouldn't even fit the game thematically to have him behaving like Kreia.
KotOR II on the other hand goes beyond the good vs evil/Jedi vs Sith dichotomy of the Star Wars universe and tries to examine that grey area in a more complex way, and the characters reflect that.

 

[Fairfax]

About Visas, I remember that the video with her and Nihilus is only played after you get a strong lean toward LS or DS... you can also get it by being neutral at the cost of having to wait more time?

Yes, you can trigger the cutscene with a specific alignment (don't remember how much, but IIRC it's 1/4 either way) or 50 alignment points of either side. The thing is that 50 points while staying neutral takes more dark/light decisions, so you get her later.

Another LS/DS-related matter in the game is whether you end up with Mira or Hanharr, although I guess that the game only let you unlock Hanharr if you are on the Sith path.

Mira is light/neutral and Hanharr dark side only.

It's not that surprising in the first KotOR, since BioWare went for a more traditional Star Wars story with a clearly evil faction vs a good one

Jolee is more or less orthodox "grey jedi", guy outside of the order that does things "his way" but not evil - basically Qui Gon type. It's not deep but it's a known thing in SW expanded universe and many players wanted to play one probably.

He doesn't see eye to eye with the Jedi Council on some issues, but he's still a good guy in his heart and complain only when you act evil, not to mention the fact that he opposes you if you go to the dark side. I'm not complaining about the character (in fact, I like him more than the other K1 companions, except for HK-47), anyway: the first KotOR is not about shades of grey or moral ambiguity, so it wouldn't even fit the game thematically to have him behaving like Kreia.
KotOR II on the other hand goes beyond the good vs evil/Jedi vs Sith dichotomy of the Star Wars universe and tries to examine that grey area in a more complex way, and the characters reflect that.

Yeah, Qui-Gon is very mildly a "grey Jedi". He never openly violated rules or went against the Jedi code, he just disagreed with the Council. Jolee Bindo did break the rules, but he still didn't draw from the dark side. The game would need a more complex system to cover characters like that. For instance, they would be almost full light side in the spectrum, but they'd need a bad reputation with the Jedi Council as a faction.

 

[Shadenuat]

There's the apathy is death thing and game making big deal of Exile going to war instead of staying neutral like Council wanted, so maybe that's why you're pushed to either LS or DS.

Kreia seems like an oddball at times because she contradicts herself and game mechanics contradicts narrative I think.

 

[Rev]

I wouldn't consider Qui-Gon a grey Jedi, btw. He still is in the Jedi Order, he just don't accept every order and do what he thinks is right even if the Council says otherwise, but that doesn't make him grey or anything else.
Jolee left the Jedi Order and when you meet him he talks about the fact that light and dark side means little and there are more shades of grey, but at the end he's just a man who made some questionable decisions that bite him in the back (his lover-padawan) while always remaining in the path of light.

Kreia on the other hand has been a Jedi Master, shifted gradually towards the Dark Side (as her teachings went more and more against the Jedi Code), then became a Sith Lord and started the Trayus Academy with her two apprentices Sion and Nihilus. She experienced both sides and at the end choose for herself another path in contrast to both the Jedi and the new Sith.
In the end, it could be argued that she is more "evil" than she is neutral, because her actions and words tend to reward (non-pshychotic) dark-side players that manipulate others to get their goals using every tool they have (murder, betrayal of friends and allies, and other morally dubious methods are all legit to her), but she is still an interesting and fresh take for a character in the SW setting and is totally different from any previous "Grey Jedi".