Interview Chris Avellone is still pretty mad about Obsidian

[HoboForEternity]

slept and this topic's number of posts became two fold overnight.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

So, what's *your* alternative?

Frankly pretty much anything. That's my main problem with Bethesda games, their core design and in particular how they do "exploration": it's not that I don't think they are the best... I rate them among the worst.
Even allegedly "mechanically and technologically limited" subgenres like blobbers (stuff like Might & Magic or Legend of Grimrock) or not-really-RPGs like action adventures and/or metroidvanias (i.e. most Zelda games) typically feel far more gratifying in terms of exploration than anything Bethesda produced so far, at least to me.

If we are talking about examples of excellence on this aspect, I guess I'd go with most of the Ultima franchise (Underworld included) or stuff like Gothic/Gothic 2/Risen.
Also, Baldur's Gate and sequel weren't half bad either.
And why not? Let's mention Dark Souls and its highly praised level design as we are on it.

As you can see I'm listing a lot of very different games, but what they share, the thing that they have in common, is that their designers seemed to grasp (if not consciously at least instinctively) few key concepts:
- going somewhere off the path should offer some sort of reward
- the reward needs to feel unique and/or valuable, not to be some generic piece of loot table you can randomly get ANYWHERE ELSE.
- figuring out things is a far more engaging process than just being told what to do and how to do it.
- navigation across the scenery needs to offer some challenge either in form of combat or physical obstacles (environmental challenges, puzzles, secrets, etc). It can't be "trek mindlessly across a flat landscape whacking autoscaled and un-intimidating enemies along the way without any effort".
- mechanics and systems should serve the game, not being thrown there just to fill a checklist of features and "things you can do" (but don't really matter).

I realize I'm oversimplifying and there are probably exceptions to almost any point I'm listing, but to summarize: good exploration should make me feel like I'm living an exciting adventure, not like I was just exploring 3D environment in some sort of over-decorated development toolset, as Bethesda games feel to me thanks to their dreadful combat, dull quests, non-existing dungeon design and absolutely broken and unbalanced subsystems.

 

[agris]

A Persian proverb says : "A potter drinks from a broken bowl"

Do you know the original farsi text? I can't find a reference to this.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

A Persian proverb says : "A potter drinks from a broken bowl"
Devs can sometimes have shit taste in games.

We have an italian equivalent. "In casa del fabbro lo spiedo è di legno"... Which translates roughly as "In the blacksmith's home the skewer is made of wood".

 

[Excidium II]

That one is used here too.

 

[Fenix]

I like how Bester put quotation marks around "wants"

It shows that he can into semantics and he is a meticulous person.

 

[Crescent Hawk]

For Gods sake Obsidian have a stupid WOT clone in the market, its pretty clear what the upper management wants, coke and whores. Obsidian still has some good old tabletop rpg grognards but its pretty clear its going in another direction.

As for Fallout I never really cared for the series except 1 but yeah I agree a MMO would probably be very successful. I can imagine an Ark style game but with Mad Max cars instead of Dinos doing well.

 

[Black Angel]

He probably also likes Bethesda's exploration more because Bethesda, unlike Obshitian, gives you plenty of empty places to explore.

FTFY.

Nope, it's the other way around. Countless times I've wandered the NV map looking for points of interest only to find out they're a wrecked building (as in, just the corner standing or something) or abandoned shack with nothing interesting there.

Your

is showing, mate.

Anyway, I kind of understand why MCA is saying what he said in this interview.

However, I expect him to redact all that shit once he's done with Prey 2.

 

[Ninjerk]

Lurker King that was a hard Agree x 1 to press, but I'm with you

 

[Dedicated_Dark]

So, is he still our Lord and Savior or must I abandon covenant?

Well, there is still Prey 2.. . .as long as I get my overblown philosophical jargon somewhere I am fine.

 

[commie]

I realize I'm oversimplifying and there are probably exceptions to almost any point I'm listing, but to summarize: good exploration should make me feel like I'm living an exciting adventure, not like I was just exploring 3D environment in some sort of over-decorated development toolset, as Bethesda games feel to me thanks to their dreadful combat, dull quests, non-existing dungeon design and absolutely broken and unbalanced subsystems.

I decided to finally give Skyrim a go and grind it through to the end.It's ok to walk around it but is EXACTLY as you say.Once you've seen the 4-5 dungeon templates you've seen them all including those of the story line quests where you'd expect something unique.Don't know why you'd actually play this WITHOUT a quest compass as it needlessly adds time to an already ungratifying game and trying to locate an npc that looks like any other in a large town with 30-40 of them just adds to the irritation especially when there's little else to discover(probably 3 proper quests in each large location along with never ending MMO generated ones(why would you do these??)). I for one welcome the popamole aids here.Amazed at the 'people' that can put in hundreds of hours into this. I'm at 30 hrs something,and most was checking of map locations and finished maybe 1/3rd of the 'proper' quests. I'll do all the proper quests just to see if there's anything but already know that there's no reason at all to make harrowing decisions. The thief guild who value professionalism had no issue with me genociding a farm or two and I stupidly tried to play the game 'properly' as a thief at first before realising there's no downside to keep doing what I was doing already for 30 hours!).

Compare to Gothic where exploration was rewarding, where most of the NPC's you ended up having an opinion about because they had some kind of motivation beyond being radiant quest dispensers and because even though Gothic felt decently populated, they didn't go crazy with the numbers of locations and NPC's just to fill a world as Bethesda games do.

I would suggest Bethesda would do better to make a smaller world of much better quality with locations with soul rather than a vast world where the same regions are cut and pasted everywhere. Skyrim in particular could do with just 3 regions of just a couple of towns/villages each for example as there's basically 3 climates: the rift area, the central plains and snowy mountains. Focusing on these would have allowed for a much more coherent world and redirected resources to making more unique content and characters. I'd be happy with 30-40 hours of a good exploration game(Gothic 1 took me 25hrs and Gothic 2 around 40) and I was just at the point of wishing there was more which is the ideal point you want in such a game rather than the "god, let me just finish this already" that I invariably get with Bethesda games(but my inner aspie compels me to see it through).

 

[Lurker King]

I would suggest Bethesda would do better to make a smaller world of much better quality with locations with soul rather than a vast world where the same regions are cut and pasted everywhere.

It is too late now. We are way past that. Popamole gamers were “educated” in the culture of exploration of vast worlds with awesome graphics and tons of fetch quests. If they had the audacity to make a triple-A game with more nuance they would lose everything. In the year 2055, cRPGs will play themselves. Gamers will just watch cinematic expositions and asked to press “A” sometimes. There is a selective pressure to ruin everything with popamolism. The most adapted are the likes of Bethesda and Bioware.

 

[commie]

I would suggest Bethesda would do better to make a smaller world of much better quality with locations with soul rather than a vast world where the same regions are cut and pasted everywhere.

It is too late now. We are way past that. Popamole gamers were “educated” in the culture of exploration of vast worlds with awesome graphics and tons of fetch quests. If they had the audacity to make a triple-A game with more nuance they would lose everything. In the year 2055, cRPGs will play themselves. Gamers will just watch cinematic expositions and asked to press “A” sometimes. There is a selective pressure to ruin everything with popamolism. The most adapted are the likes of Bethesda and Bioware.

Oh I didn't say they WOULD make such a game, only that that's the way to make a good exploration one*. But, but, the god of RPG's is there now and MCA will turn them around!


* Of course there's no point to do so as the larping faggots that proudly boast they put in 500-1000 hours in Skyrim and Oblivion attest. Really what the fuck is there to do?Even with mods it's the same shit over and over with minor tinkering at the edges but there's many with hundreds of hours in vanilla!What do they do?Radiant quests for eternity on a character they maxed out hundreds of hours before? I don't understand...

 

[Ludo Lense]

Avellone has always been critical about this work and projects, this is just a bad interviewer who was trying to bait. But at least it couples nicely with the sensationalist garbage title of this thread.

 

[Lurker King]

Avellone has always been critical about this work and projects, this is just a bad interviewer who was trying to bait. But at least it couples nicely with the sensationalist garbage title of this thread.

I notice that there are two types of posters that always deny unpleasant facts about developers. The fanboys and the politicians. Fanboys are irrational, while politicians are self-interested. Fanboys think that developers are sacred and deserve blind adoration, while politicians treat every post as an opportunity to ass kiss forum moderators. They are opportunists who always walk on eggshells around polemic topics. Fanboys have a stupid spontaneity about them that is sincere, even if it is unjustified, while politicians have a calculated and careerist mentality that is completely rotten.

 

[an Administrator]

Observation of the year

 

[Ludo Lense]

Avellone has always been critical about this work and projects, this is just a bad interviewer who was trying to bait. But at least it couples nicely with the sensationalist garbage title of this thread.

I notice that there are two types of posters that always deny unpleasant facts about developers. The fanboys and the politicians. Fanboys are irrational, while politicians are self-interested. Fanboys just think developers are sacred and deserve blind adoration, while politicians treat every post as an opportunity to ass kiss forum moderators. They are opportunists who always walk on eggshells around polemic topics. Fanboys have a stupid spontaneity about them that is sincere, even if it is unjustified, while politicians have a calculated and careerist mentality that is completely rotten.

Thanks for informing me, I'll make sure to avoid both.

"still mad" implies something that is no in way present in the interview. It is leading as all hell. Which again fits with the bad interview where that guy might as well ask "Would you crucify every single Bethesda developer if given the chance?". Obviously Avellone didn't leave on the best of terms with Obsidian but his attitude is one of cold distance if that all.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Avellone has always been critical about this work and projects, this is just a bad interviewer who was trying to bait. But at least it couples nicely with the sensationalist garbage title of this thread.

I agree 100%.

politicians have a calculated and careerist mentality that is completely rotten.

Idiot!

 

[Infinitron]

Lurker King, what the fuck are you doing?

 

[Darth Roxor]

Lurker King, what the fuck are you doing?

trolling, conceivably

 

[Lurker King]

What? I don't now what are you talking about!

 

[Lurker King]

Lurker King, what the fuck are you doing?

trolling, conceivably

ironyuri, do you agree with Roxor? I hope not.

 

[an Administrator]

Multiple personality disorder

 

[Darth Roxor]

Lurker King, what the fuck are you doing?

trolling, conceivably

ironyuri, do you agree with Roxor? I hope not.

he always does

 

[Lurker King]

Multiple personality disorder

The Codex has a long history of mental illness. Did you noticed how VD talks about his child from time to time? That is just an imagery of the inner child that he lost after he stopped all forms of shitposting and decide that everyone must be serious. In fact, you could argue that Infinitron and J_C became deranged into cucks out of our excess of negativity towards developers, and Crooked Bee became a deranged jRPG weaboo degenerate due to the excess of hate against Japanese stuff. Codexers are damaged goods.