Civvie thread (classic FPS reviews/commentary on youtube)

[DraQ]

Well, Dishonored literally starts by telling you - right in your face at the very first moment - that there isn't a wrong way to play the game and yet you still have people thinking that it is a stealth game.

IMO if the simulation allows it - intended or not - then it is fair game. If the developers didn't want you to do something then they shouldn't have allowed you to do that in the first place. Beyond that, let me decide what is fun or not for me.

And then punishes you by giving you a worse ending for going a combat/chaos route. Prey does a similar thing with Typhon powers and the ending. It seems to be a pattern with Arkane.

That's what they get for not employing a CB4 consultant.

 

[Wunderbar]

Well, Dishonored literally starts by telling you - right in your face at the very first moment - that there isn't a wrong way to play the game and yet you still have people thinking that it is a stealth game.

Dishonored could've been way better if it gave you more tools and skills that are useful during a ghost playthrough, and more tools and skills that are useful during a combat-heavy nonlethal playthrough.
D2 gives you the ability to punch-choke guards for a nonlethal open combat, but that's not enough.

 

[Bad Sector]

And then punishes you by giving you a worse ending for going a combat/chaos route. Prey does a similar thing with Typhon powers and the ending. It seems to be a pattern with Arkane.

TBH i never saw the ending as punishment, all you get is an angsty kid (which i found amusing - yes Emily, it'd be fun to kill everyone you dislike, trust me, i'm doing that too! :-P) and some old dude disliking you at the very last moment. How "chaos" affects things is arbitrary, but hey, you get swarms of mice to play around with so i'm fine with it.

But yeah, in general i do not think Arkane's writing is great anyway (in all of their games ever since Arx Fatalis) so i do not pay that much attention to it. For me their strength is in systems and level design, their writing is there to give a theme and an excuse to do things but i do not pay that much attention to it. It'd be nice if it was better, but it isn't something that bothers me.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

Well, Dishonored literally starts by telling you - right in your face at the very first moment - that there isn't a wrong way to play the game and yet you still have people thinking that it is a stealth game.

IMO if the simulation allows it - intended or not - then it is fair game. If the developers didn't want you to do something then they shouldn't have allowed you to do that in the first place. Beyond that, let me decide what is fun or not for me.

Actually, dishonored is made to please every first person player demographics. And the consensus between most of players/reviewers is that it has boring stealth and fun chaotic killing. It's like they made the game balanced for a chaotic playthrough and put stealth just to be there. My point is that I find the chaotic way really boring. And I actually like it's stealth.

The problem is that stealth is boring in Dishonored because it's easy and you don't get to play with cool toys.

That's actually my main problem with Dishonored:

• Story-wise stealth and low chaos are rewarded
• Gameplay-wise they are punished, and not by extra challenge, but by boredom.

this... the thing is I don't think the cool toys are that cool I think it's really boring. It gets old fast. And I feel the stealth is not boring. Well, stealth gameplay is based on boredom, somehow.

Well, Dishonored literally starts by telling you - right in your face at the very first moment - that there isn't a wrong way to play the game and yet you still have people thinking that it is a stealth game.

Dishonored could've been way better if it gave you more tools and skills that are useful during a ghost playthrough, and more tools and skills that are useful during a combat-heavy nonlethal playthrough.
D2 gives you the ability to punch-choke guards for a nonlethal open combat, but that's not enough.

There's poison darts that are the equivalent of gas arrows in thief. And the choke from behind is the blackjacking option. The other tool for stealth is patience.

 

[Wunderbar]

Well, Dishonored literally starts by telling you - right in your face at the very first moment - that there isn't a wrong way to play the game and yet you still have people thinking that it is a stealth game.

Dishonored could've been way better if it gave you more tools and skills that are useful during a ghost playthrough, and more tools and skills that are useful during a combat-heavy nonlethal playthrough.
D2 gives you the ability to punch-choke guards for a nonlethal open combat, but that's not enough.

There's poison darts that are the equivalent of gas arrows in thief. And the choke from behind is the blackjacking option. The other tool for stealth is patience.

i know, but that's still a really poor amount of tools at nonlethal player's disposal. Lethal player on the other hand can use sword, steel bolts, explosive bolts, throwables, mines, bombs, magic, etc.
Adding a disguise system (or at least ability to use possession without killing a host and breaking ghosting) would've solved the problem.

 

[Lutte]

Prey does a similar thing with Typhon powers and the ending. It seems to be a pattern with Arkane.

Uh, no, the ending to Prey and its relation to the game mechanics have nothing to do with what happens in Dishonored.
Acquiring and using typhon powers does not affect the ending other than having a line from one of the operators mentioning it in passing. That is all.

There's only one factor that affects the meat of Prey's ending :
did you try to save humans or not
Every event related to saving people, killing people, or not caring and letting them die from other reasons will be judged by the operators and the game keeps an internal empathy score about you.
If your empathy score was average or high, you are allowed to make another choice right at the end :
side with humanity
or murder their remnants and rebel (taking the opportunity when your leash is removed)

If your empathy score was low, you are executed and deemed a failed project. They restart the project with another typhon.

From a gameplay perspective, there is no dissonance. In fact, there are cases in which using typhon power will make it far easier to save lives if you're going for that high empathy score. Acquiring and using typhon neuromods is not a detriment to getting a "good" ending.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

Well, Dishonored literally starts by telling you - right in your face at the very first moment - that there isn't a wrong way to play the game and yet you still have people thinking that it is a stealth game.

Dishonored could've been way better if it gave you more tools and skills that are useful during a ghost playthrough, and more tools and skills that are useful during a combat-heavy nonlethal playthrough.
D2 gives you the ability to punch-choke guards for a nonlethal open combat, but that's not enough.

There's poison darts that are the equivalent of gas arrows in thief. And the choke from behind is the blackjacking option. The other tool for stealth is patience.

i know, but that's still a really poor amount of tools at nonlethal player's disposal. Lethal player on the other hand can use sword, steel bolts, explosive bolts, throwables, mines, bombs, magic, etc.
Adding a disguise system (or at least ability to use possession without killing a host and breaking ghosting) would've solved the problem.

You could posses a rat...

 

[A horse of course]

Prey does a similar thing with Typhon powers and the ending. It seems to be a pattern with Arkane.

Uh, no, the ending to Prey and its relation to the game mechanics have nothing to do with what happens in Dishonored.
Acquiring and using typhon powers does not affect the ending other than having a line from one of the operators mentioning it in passing. That is all.

There's only one factor that affects the meat of Prey's ending :
did you try to save humans or not
Every event related to saving people, killing people, or not caring and letting them die from other reasons will be judged by the operators and the game keeps an internal empathy score about you.
If your empathy score was average or high, you are allowed to make another choice right at the end :
side with humanity
or murder their remnants and rebel (taking the opportunity when your leash is removed)

If your empathy score was low, you are executed and deemed a failed project. They restart the project with another typhon.

From a gameplay perspective, there is no dissonance. In fact, there are cases in which using typhon power will make it far easier to save lives if you're going for that high empathy score. Acquiring and using typhon neuromods is not a detriment to getting a "good" ending.

Oh, fair enough - I just assumed it was so from the in-game warnings, NPC and station security's response, and the ending dialogue. There are a lot of in-game factors that seem to warn you off using them, but I guess this was just for balance/reactivity. I googled it just now and saw a lot of people who apparently came to the same conclusion (especially those who'd played Dishonoured).

 

[Wunderbar]

Well, Dishonored literally starts by telling you - right in your face at the very first moment - that there isn't a wrong way to play the game and yet you still have people thinking that it is a stealth game.

Dishonored could've been way better if it gave you more tools and skills that are useful during a ghost playthrough, and more tools and skills that are useful during a combat-heavy nonlethal playthrough.
D2 gives you the ability to punch-choke guards for a nonlethal open combat, but that's not enough.

There's poison darts that are the equivalent of gas arrows in thief. And the choke from behind is the blackjacking option. The other tool for stealth is patience.

i know, but that's still a really poor amount of tools at nonlethal player's disposal. Lethal player on the other hand can use sword, steel bolts, explosive bolts, throwables, mines, bombs, magic, etc.
Adding a disguise system (or at least ability to use possession without killing a host and breaking ghosting) would've solved the problem.

You could posses a rat...

possession was a very underused mechanic. It gave you like... few seconds to do something while in someone elses body? And it took too much mana.

 

[Lutte]

Oh, fair enough - I just assumed it was so from the in-game warnings, NPC and station security's response, and the ending dialogue. There are a lot of in-game factors that seem to warn you off using them, but I guess this was just for balance/reactivity. I googled it just now and saw a lot of people who apparently came to the same conclusion (especially those who'd played Dishonoured).

I think they went overboard with the warnings because they might have feared casuals would throw a fit after every AI operated thing on the station turn hostile (this is the main impact of having typhon neuromods). The more you've got typhon neuromods, the more often the Nightmare typhon will hunt you too. Prey isn't a hard game and the typhon neuromods if anything make it easier IMHO, but Arkane has PTSD level of reaction toward play testers cf this :
https://www.pcgamer.com/dishonored-clues-hints/

"People would just walk around during playtesting of the 'Lady Boyle' mission," Dishonored executive producer Julien Roby said. "They didn't know what to do. They didn't even go upstairs because a guard told them they couldn't. They'd say, 'Okay, I can't go upstairs.' They wouldn't do anything."

Roby explained that a few clues now nudge Corvo along his noble mission of sinking his dagger into his target, saying, "We try not to lead the player by the nose, but at some point we found that if we don't give a little information, people just get lost and don't know what to do. It's just overwhelming. So we tried to add this element that gave just a hint to help a little. But we try to do it as little as possible."

They really, really want to make sure the lowest common denominator knows what straightforward path to follow.

As far as the ending itself, though, you're not judged as having low empathy just because you have followed the path of typhon powers. They judge your actions, not what you are.

 

[A horse of course]

Oh, fair enough - I just assumed it was so from the in-game warnings, NPC and station security's response, and the ending dialogue. There are a lot of in-game factors that seem to warn you off using them, but I guess this was just for balance/reactivity. I googled it just now and saw a lot of people who apparently came to the same conclusion (especially those who'd played Dishonoured).

I think they went overboard with the warnings because they might have feared casuals would throw a fit after every AI operated thing on the station turn hostile (this is the main impact of having typhon neuromods). The more you've got typhon neuromods, the more often the Nightmare typhon will hunt you too. Prey isn't a hard game and the typhon neuromods if anything make it easier IMHO, but Arkane has PTSD level of reaction toward play testers cf this :
https://www.pcgamer.com/dishonored-clues-hints/

"People would just walk around during playtesting of the 'Lady Boyle' mission," Dishonored executive producer Julien Roby said. "They didn't know what to do. They didn't even go upstairs because a guard told them they couldn't. They'd say, 'Okay, I can't go upstairs.' They wouldn't do anything."

Roby explained that a few clues now nudge Corvo along his noble mission of sinking his dagger into his target, saying, "We try not to lead the player by the nose, but at some point we found that if we don't give a little information, people just get lost and don't know what to do. It's just overwhelming. So we tried to add this element that gave just a hint to help a little. But we try to do it as little as possible."

They really, really want to make sure the lowest common denominator knows what straightforward path to follow.

As far as the ending itself, though, you're not judged as having low empathy just because you have followed the path of typhon powers. They judge your actions, not what you are.

People use "dumb playtesters" as an excuse all the time, but playtesters only act according to how they're conditioned by game developers. It's funny watching people unfamiliar with games try to perform logical actions, like blowing up a locked door with a grenade, where a "seasoned" gamer would know that's a waste of time.

Similarly, Arkane conditioned people to believe that trying to have fun in their games will lead to a bad end

 

[DraQ]

i know, but that's still a really poor amount of tools at nonlethal player's disposal. Lethal player on the other hand can use sword, steel bolts, explosive bolts, throwables, mines, bombs, magic, etc.
Adding a disguise system (or at least ability to use possession without killing a host and breaking ghosting) would've solved the problem.

Wait, since when did possession kill the host?
IIRC it killed rats, but bigger animals and humans just got violently ill for a while.

possession was a very underused mechanic. It gave you like... few seconds to do something while in someone elses body? And it took too much mana.

You could do a lot during those few seconds as long as you planned your actions.

Arkane has PTSD level of reaction toward play testers cf this :
https://www.pcgamer.com/dishonored-clues-hints/

I would have been mentally scarred after witnessing such levels of stupidity as well.
(Though I would have just responded by kicking the testers involved off the team immediately and adding them to "do not hire, ever" shitlist.)

It's funny watching people unfamiliar with games try to perform logical actions, like blowing up a locked door with a grenade, where a "seasoned" gamer would know that's a waste of time.

It works in DX or Dishonored.

 

[Echo Mirage]

 

[Lyric Suite]

Civvie pissing all over himself as usual. Boomers man.

 

[A horse of course]

That looks a lot closer to Postal 2. I'll consider buying the final version based on this video.

 

[Mikeal]

 

[JarlFrank]

That looks a lot closer to Postal 2. I'll consider buying the final version based on this video.

That's because it's made by the original Postal team rather than outsourced to a bunch of Russians (like P3 was).

 

[Baron Dupek]

People might be disappointed that I'm playing the 1.3 version, but I wanted to present it the way most people will play it nowadays.
And have it crash less.
Still kept companions and save gems.

shame

Spoiler

 

[flyingjohn]

 

[Lyric Suite]

The mad man did it.

Sec, need to crack open a can of monster energy drink.

*sips*

K i'm ready.

 

[Bad Sector]

Hm, i wonder if the fan patch broke something and/or modern PC's fast framerate glitch the physics, because i finished the game ~14 years ago in all difficulties and i only remember the NPCs getting stuck once (Mikiko in a fountain or something, on one of the Ancient Greece levels). I *do* remember telling them to wait for me to kill everything and then picking them up, though, so that probably helped since i didn't let them run around. That was because i wanted to kill everything myself though, i didn't like having NPCs steal my kills :-P so i never even tried to play the game otherwise.

FWIW i always thought the negativity towards Daikatana was overblown, but it might be because somehow i never took notice of it during its development so i completely missed any hype. I only learned about it from a magazine review and that review wasn't that negative (the reviewer wrote that it was basically a mediocre game with graphics that often felt like leftovers from Quake 2). I aso first played it when Romero released it for free at some point back in the mid-2000s in his forum and that was already patched to version 1.2 which had the save gems disabled and had any known bugs fixed (according to Masters of Doom they knew about more than 500 bugs).

I also liked the music in the game and while the models were often awful, i really liked how detailed the 2D and texture work was.

I got the game on GOG some time ago, perhaps i should try to play it again. I did try the first map when i bought it, but got sidetracked by other stuff.

 

[Fronzel Neekburm]

That looks a lot closer to Postal 2. I'll consider buying the final version based on this video.

Don't. It's abysmal.

I mean, it's early access and all, but the jankiness isn't what has me concerned about the finished game. It's the game design itself. The world is a lot larger now, but it feels a lot emptier, making going from point A to point B a chore. The mission design is the worst: Remember that one time you had to collect signatures for your petition in Postal 2? That was a fun, memorable moment, right? So they did the exact same mission again at the very beginning of Paradise Lost. And now they have the exact same mission again at the very beginning of Postal 4. And it goes downhill from there: We get a prison mission that's not fun (walk from one cell block to the next to initiate a lockdown), then we have a mission where you have to collect cats and dogs and lure them into a van that's not fun and then we have a sewer mission where you screw in lightbulbs and unclog pipes by shooting piles of shit that is the antithesis of fun. They wouldn't just have to polish these missions, they'd have to completely revamp them to make them any fun at all.

The graphics are horrid (honestly, I think they look worse than P2, at least P2 looked crisp and had a distinct style, this one just looks like blurry cartoon shit - much closer to P3 than anything else), the guns suck, fire physics suck and were way more fun in the original, Jon St John sucks and should stick to Duke Nukem. There's now a weapon reload button (who in their right mind would want to see a reload button in a Postal game?)

To be honest, in its current stage I find nothing at all to recommend about this. Unless "It's better than Postal 3" sounds like a glowing recommendation to you.

 

[DraQ]

It really looks like if you mixed that with Q2 you'd get a proper ye olde Id game.

 

[Lyric Suite]

It looks like a shitty Q2 total conversion.

 

[DraQ]

It looks like a shitty Q2 total conversion.

Q2 itself looks like a shitty Q2 total conversion.

Spoiler

Or at least plays like one.