Incline Colony Ship Combat Beta Thread

[Iluvcheezcake]

We can't re-balance the game every time someone says 'it's bad, you have to change it'.

Long window from demo release <-> final release 2021 though, and you didnt opt for early access. How much do you expect the basics to change in that period? (enjoyed the demo a lot btw)

Early access by the end of the year (at least that's the target). Right now the focus is on quests (see the update we posted 2 days ago - https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...date-44-demo-update-and-status-report.132941/) and stealth. I doubt we'd do any significant changes to the combat mechanics before releasing on early access, then we take another look.

I have a suggestion - the feats that require 10 in a stat can be picked up after chargen, during regular leveling

Have to be born a hero (the goal is to limit the heroic feats to 1).

Hm, doesnt that completely discourage builds with two 10's, since only 1 feat can be chosen? Shame really, in AoD the extreme builds were the most fun ones...

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

INT gives you tagged skills plus learning rate bonus for non-tagged skills. What more do you need?

Skills seem to grow just fine without int.

That's true. The difference does not seem significant to justify the investment.

 

[Vault Dweller]

INT gives you tagged skills plus learning rate bonus for non-tagged skills. What more do you need?

Skills seem to grow just fine without int.

That's true. The difference does not seem significant to justify the investment.

% modified growth is always a long game, be it investment or bonus xp/learning rate. On avg, by the time non-tagged skills get to level 4, tagged gets you to 5 (depends on the use, obviously, so a character who gets hit a lot will level up his armor skill faster), by the time non-tagged gets to 8, you get to 10 (two level difference). Only tagged skills will be able to go past 10.

If that's not enough, let's discuss.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

% modified growth is always a long game, be it investment or bonus xp/learning rate. On avg, by the time non-tagged skills get to level 4, tagged gets you to 5 (depends on the use, obviously, so a character who gets hit a lot will level up his armor skill faster), by the time non-tagged gets to 8, you get to 10 (two level difference). Only tagged skills will be able to go past 10.

If that's not enough, let's discuss it.

We are talking about INT and their role in combat. If I make no investment at all in INT, I can still tag one skill. Basically, we have three combat-related skills (armor, evasion, and weapon skills), unless, of course, you decide to invest in two weapon skills, but most players don’t want to spread their experience too thin. So I would need to invest two stat points in two skills to have them one level earlier, which means one INT stat for one skill level earlier. I might be wrong, but my impression is that the related bonuses from investment in DEX, PER or CON seem much more important.

 

[Goromorg]

You guys miss the fact that INT will be more important for non-combat skills than for combat ones in the full game.

While you will certainly be able to improvise in combat and use gadgets and consumables to compensate for lower combat skills, you won't be able to successfully repair a fusion reactor if the requirement is, say, 8 in electronics while you only have 6 or 7.

 

[Binky]

Yup. I can't really imagine playing a dumb solo hybrid. Some INT + maybe educated feat + the neural uplink implant will be necessary.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Gifted is +1 stat right? From what I recall, most feats give way more benefit than what you get from stats (usually something like 1 feat point ~= 2 stat points). Gifted seemed very strong to me when I first read it, and then super weak once I did the math.

Stat checks aside, it depends on the build and the benefits you seek. If you want to max a stat, a heroic feat is probably better. If you're going for a balanced build, it's a good way to cover deficiencies. Anyway, we'll consider boosting it to +2.

We are talking about INT and their role in combat. If I make no investment at all in INT, I can still tag one skill. Basically, we have three combat-related skills (armor, evasion, and weapon skills), unless, of course, you decide to invest in two weapon skills, but most players don’t want to spread their experience too thin. So I would need to invest two stat points in two skills to have them one level earlier, which means one INT stat for one skill level earlier. I might be wrong, but my impression is that the related bonuses from investment in DEX, PER or CON seem much more important.

First, we have 4 skills, you forgot critical strike. Plus half the players tag two weapon skills. Either way I'd say it's good to tag 2-3 combat skills. Second, it's one level earlier at skill level 4-5, two at 8, which is pretty good if you ask me. Granted, it's hard to go that far in the demo, but we're looking at the bigger picture than just the demo. Third, I assume most people would want to tag a couple of non-combat skills (speech, science, infiltration), so going with INT4 and one tagged skill would be a very extreme option not default like CHA4 for AoD fighters.

However, we'll consider boosting the bonus rate to 100% which will give you +1 skill level at level 3 (non-tagged 3, tagged 4 if all things are equal, meaning the frequency of use is the same).

 

[Elhoim]

First and foremost, we see INT as a "jack of all trades" type of stat. It will allow you to be competent in combat while also being able to focus on the science, speech and stealth skills via tags. In combat it's more of a cumulative thing once you go high INT. You eventually get +10 THC, +10 Evasion, +2/+4 critical chance (if you have the feat), etc. It's being able to tag more skills and the difference it makes on all of them, not just a single one. As Vince said, we are looking into making tagged skills 100% bonus, to give an early boost to skills. Thanks for your feedback!

 

[Vault Dweller]

INT does nothing for combat builds - :not sure if serious:

Spoiler

So much difference, so much brain power. I especially like tagged vs non-tagged Armor stat.

Here's a newly posted build (Steam):

Tagged Armor 6 (almost 7). If you focus on evasion (smoke grenade, distortion, cover), your armor skill will go up at a much slower rate.

 

[PlanHex]

The design makes sense, but the numbers seem bugged going by those pictures, like the 30% extra learning rate isn't applied?
Possibly because the stats were raised by cheating?

 

[Vault Dweller]

The design makes sense, but the numbers seem bugged going by those pictures, like the 30% extra learning rate isn't applied?
Possibly because the stats were raised by cheating?

The tagged skills' learning rate is fixed (50% at the moment, considering raising to 100%). The learning rate bonus applies to non-tagged skills only (which we didn't make clear) to make sure that all your skills grow at a faster rate. Since Pope tagged 4 skills and didn't use any other skills, you can't see the effect of the non-tagged learning rate at all.

 

[Shadenuat]

darkness

The learning rate bonus applies to non-tagged skills only

wait, that means INT is even worse??
oh right you ge tmore tagged skills, nvm.

not sure if learning bonus is required, more tagged skills at higher learning rate than now would be better and more intuitive.

The learning rate bonus applies to non-tagged skills only (which we didn't make clear)

UI not priority at work.

 

[thesecret1]

INT is definitely the dump stat for combat builds. I mean you say that INT is a stat for the long race, but if I'm only gonna see any actual benefit (compared to just putting the points into PER) in the last 20% of the game, then it's just not a good investment. I don't exactly mind it since I expect INT to be a key part of the non-combat part of the game, but if your aim is to have INT a desireable stat in combat too, then I'm sorry to say that you've failed in that regard with the current system. It's easily the most useless stat for combat unless you plan to go lone wolf. In AoD, INT straight up gave you bonus skill points to spend, if I remember correctly. That was significantly more useful and is not really comparable to the system here.

If I'm to pick a stat for future payoff, then that payoff must come while there's still a large enough chunk of the game left for me to actually enjoy the payoff in, and it must be large enough to compensate for the hardships I suffered by effectively crippling myself in early game (since that's where combat stat deficiency will hurt the most if the game's anything like AoD), at least if we speak strictly in combat terms. I'm sure INT will be very useful for non-combat, so as I said, I don't mind the current design, but from a combat build perspective, it's just a dump stat.

 

[Technomancer]

The tagged skills' learning rate is fixed (50% at the moment, considering raising to 100%)

Better make it so that tagged bonus stacks with learning rate bonus from INT. I honestly thought that it was working like that already.

Only tagged skills will be able to go past 10.

Woah, what? How far can you go?

 

[Vault Dweller]

INT is definitely the dump stat for combat builds. I mean you say that INT is a stat for the long race, but if I'm only gonna see any actual benefit (compared to just putting the points into PER) in the last 20% of the game, then it's just not a good investment. I don't exactly mind it since I expect INT to be a key part of the non-combat part of the game, but if your aim is to have INT a desireable stat in combat too, then I'm sorry to say that you've failed in that regard with the current system. It's easily the most useless stat for combat unless you plan to go lone wolf.

Our goal was to make it a good stat for hybrid builds (i.e. not just non-combat). If someone wants to play a pure fighter and dumps INT, we have absolutely no problem with that. Based on the submitted builds, avg INT is 5-7, which is fine.

Woah, what? How far can you go?

12 (at the moment). Nobody likes maxing skills, especially in an 'increase by use' system, so there are unadvertised mastery levels.

 

[PlanHex]

The design makes sense, but the numbers seem bugged going by those pictures, like the 30% extra learning rate isn't applied?
Possibly because the stats were raised by cheating?

The tagged skills' learning rate is fixed (50% at the moment, considering raising to 100%). The learning rate bonus applies to non-tagged skills only (which we didn't make clear) to make sure that all your skills grow at a faster rate. Since Pope tagged 4 skills and didn't use any other skills, you can't see the effect of the non-tagged learning rate at all.

Ah, then it makes sense.
I think it's more intuitive to make them stack additively, and also makes investing more in INT more appealing. But may make it more of an all or nothing stat.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Damn, i thought they stacked! :O

 

[guestposting]

Eh, if INT gives your skill progression too much of a boost you end up in a Fallout situation where it’s insanely overpowered. Better to undershoot than overshoot.

The common complaint seems to be that the payoff for INT takes too long. So rather than a flat 100% learning bonus, what if you frontload it? Maybe 100% through level 4, 75% through level 8, 50% through 12?

 

[Elhoim]

The common complaint seems to be that the payoff for INT takes too long. So rather than a flat 100% learning bonus, what if you frontload it? Maybe 100% through level 4, 75% through level 8, 50% through 12?

It's ok, the way the level increase curve works evens it out by the end. So with 100% you practically get a good headstart of +1 in the skill, and still ends out at +2 (you get to the +2 earlier).

 

[Black Angel]

Here's a newly posted build (Steam):

Tagged Armor 6 (almost 7). If you focus on evasion (smoke grenade, distortion, cover), your armor skill will go up at a much slower rate.

Lalatina? Tagged Armor 6, almost 7? 10 CON??!! TOUGH BASTARD + ARMORED WARFARE???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice.

 

[Binky]

Tagged Armor 6, almost 7? 10 CON??!! TOUGH BASTARD + ARMORED WARFARE???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And healing factor. He basically built Boris the Blade.

 

[Saduj]

Just finished the demo with the shotgun build in spoiler. Sadly, Vazquez didn't survive the fight against Winfield. Really looking forward to the full game now. Would like to see a Colony Ship version of Dungeon Rats too....

Got through the first seven or eight fights with a similar build with Gifted instead of Fast Runner. To make it worse, I thought Biotech was needed to extract implants in the demo so I used the extra tag skill on that and put a point there too. Couldn't get past the fight against the heavily armored Brotherhood crew and the wasted choices were annoying so I had to started over. Same fight was the toughest for me on the 2nd run too. Being able to rush with Fast Runner made a huge difference and having a more mobile character made the demo much more fun in general. If I had to do it over, I probably didn't need 5 in Strength either but at the time I was worried about Armor Handling. Second Wind was fun too.

Gifted seems like a good idea for the full game where you might want to seed more skills but you probably don't need to tag enough skills in the combat demo for it to be worth it.

I also did the Mutant fight and the fight against the six mooks but wouldn't have been able to beat Winfiled with all the injuries left over from the mook fight. If you can use stims outside of combat without penalties carrying over into combat, it would have been doable but I didn't buy any before trying to leave the Pit.

Edit: Also, Sharpshooter became a waste because the ocular implant upgrade is good for shotguns and nullifies the Aimed bonus.

Last thing - Might want to disable the ability to tag/put points into unused skills in the demo. It is possible I'm the only idiot who would end up doing it but seems more likely that even bigger idiots will waste resources on unused skills and then complain about difficulty.

Spoiler

 

[Darth Canoli]

And healing factor. He basically built Boris the Blade.

I'd rather build the lucky bastard that survives ...

 

[Binky]

And healing factor. He basically built Boris the Blade.

I'd rather build the lucky bastard that survives ...

Name: Tyrone aka Silly Fat Bastard
Feats: fat bastard, slow runner, dodged this!, artful dodger, loud, too tight!, winded

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

I'm having this bug where you finish the fight, but the end turn button does nothing. This happens only when I have a partner that survived the encounter.