Corpse Crew Alpha Version 0.4A (Want your input)

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

I actually bought some ambient tracks off an internet royalty-free music site last year before I even started on this game. I was just trying to accumulate stuff for my "unnamed loose concept of post-apocalyptic something with Penumbra-like feel post-Grimoire project."

I have three variations called "Decay Flambeau" #1-#2-#3 I was listening to a lot while playing the CC alpha and it seemed to go really well. Very grim, not exactly music, sometimes almost imperceptible but definitely spooky. Sort of fills out the audio space.

 

[Norfleet]

The last time I uploaded the alpha of Grimoire it was put on sale in Russia as shareware.

And the problem with that is...? Maybe you should put it on sale in Russia as shareware yourself? I mean, clearly, you're onto something. Why not do it yourself?

 

[nomask7]

I would put in an Arcade Mode: a point counter (doesn't have to be visible during play), no saving (even when quitting), constant night (the mode could be called The Night Land), more ammo & fire, extra monsters (not just zombies), other appropriate changes, etc., etc....

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

I would put in an Arcade Mode: a point counter (doesn't have to be visible during play), no saving (even when quitting), constant night (the mode could be called The Night Land), more ammo & fire, extra monsters (not just zombies), other appropriate changes, etc., etc....

... and then I'm almost in Wii/XBox360 Bonus Unlocked Achievements and reward features. Then I might as well go to collecting your own action figures for your display cabinet at your headquarters. Then I might as well add secret world levels that look like Pac-Man ... and before you know it my offbeat hyperrealistic survival horror Penumbra game has turned into Super Mario Zombie World for the IPhone.

I was just thinking about workbenches ala Fallout 3 ... it would be a mistake to allow you to "put" one anywhere, but once you know where one is you can go back to it. I don't want the player stocking their own zombie headquarters with a JukeBox and personal helper robot. That worked in Fallout 3 but it would destroy the atmosphere in this game.

I like the idea suggested by some that no place should ever really be safe to rest forever if for no other reason than you'll run out of food/water and starve. You have to keep moving and exploring and if you stay in one place long enough the odds are working against you sooner or later that they will overwhelm you with their swarming zombie masses.

That's why I need to think of zombies that can go where other zombies can't - crawling torsos can come through air vents and sewer pipes and even crawl along ledges where other zombies might not be able to get you. There should be at least one zombie in the game who can either spit acid or shoot something that can hit you if you're trying to camp out somewhere like a rooftop. I need to make that sort of thing impossible for longer than a few days/week. Food'n'fuel is a good way to keep'm moving.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Will you be scaling time in your game?

What I mean is - if your game intends to have day/night cycles, obviously a player can not be playing for 8 hours just for the day to turn to night, right?

Because what alot of games is do is that one second of real time is represented as passing of 10-30 seconds in virtual time.

So would you be for real time or for scaled time?

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

Will you be scaling time in your game?

What I mean is - if your game intends to have day/night cycles, obviously a player can not be playing for 8 hours just for the day to turn to night, right?

Because what alot of games is do is that one second of real time is represented as passing of 10-30 seconds in virtual time.

So would you be for real time or for scaled time?

At present in my research map it takes 12 minutes each for night and day. Obviously that would change but I'd have to fill the game with a lot more zombies during the day, just slower moving than at night when they go into "frenzy."

 

[sheek]

What about sleep as a game mechanism?

I'm a bit of a realism freak and advocate this for every RPG but it would work especially in a survival horror game. It would mean you wouldn't have to compress time as much since you would be expected to sleep one quarter of each game day to be at optimum performance. And it would make night/day more meaningful. Probably you would want to sleep during a portion of the day, but that would give you less time to explore, find equipment and move around the world.

What are the consequences of not sleeping enough? Worse aiming, slower movement/higher fatigue from running/shorter acrobatics (jumping), slower regeneration/worse consequences of injuries, worse stealth skill, more jerky object interaction (if you had physics based lock picking for example, mouse would jump around).

What are the consequences of sleeping? Well, obviously zombies creeping up on you. To make it playable you'd need to ensure the player automatically wakes up as soon as a zombie comes within a certain radius, which would widen if you were better rested (and interrupt your sleep, so you'd get a proportion of you optimum potential back relative to when you were interrupted). If zombies are smashing down your door then that would wake you up depending on how far the door is away from you. Weight different sounds for different zombie actions by distance. So a zombie just shuffling would be x1, and say your fully rested base radius is 30 meters, you would detect them when they're within 30 meters, smashing a window would be x2, it would wake you up if it's within 60 meters. If zombies are shuffling around outside your fortress but not getting in within your radius, a thick wall could reduce the weighting of the fraction of your radius past the wall by 75%.

If you are going to have 'sanity'/psychosis effects (and why wouldn't you), you could tie sleep in with that. There was some discussion of this in Scott's thread for Cyclopean. Hallucinations are not obvious, but to start with you could add random (misleading) sounds, and make fatigue effects stronger: worse aiming, worse object interaction. Or to make it more significant the worse your nerves, the less benefit you get from sleep, or the greater your 'threat' (waking up) radius. So bad nerves would give you a benefit in that you're safer in the short term but at the same time would make your sleep worse in a vicious circle until you found a safe spot where you could recover properly.

Cyclopean discussions:
Sanity and Sleep
More on Sanity

 

[Jeff Graw]

At present in my research map it takes 12 minutes each for night and day. Obviously that would change but I'd have to fill the game with a lot more zombies during the day, just slower moving than at night when they go into "frenzy."

Here's the thing: Lots of people will want longer day-night cycles in order to gain more realism, other people will want shorter cycles so they have a quicker, more frantic game. I think the best way to approach this is to have the length of the cycle adjustable by the player himself, create some sort of relationship between zombie spawns and cycle length, and leave it at that. Aside from randomization, customization is the next best thing for creating staying power.

 

[sheek]

Why would it matter how long a cycle is, unless one day is different than the next? It's completely pointless like day and night cycles are in most RPGs, unless there is need for rest.

 

[nomask7]

I like the idea suggested by some that no place should ever really be safe to rest forever if for no other reason than you'll run out of food/water and starve. You have to keep moving and exploring and if you stay in one place long enough the odds are working against you sooner or later that they will overwhelm you with their swarming zombie masses.

That's why I need to think of zombies that can go where other zombies can't - crawling torsos can come through air vents and sewer pipes and even crawl along ledges where other zombies might not be able to get you. There should be at least one zombie in the game who can either spit acid or shoot something that can hit you if you're trying to camp out somewhere like a rooftop. I need to make that sort of thing impossible for longer than a few days/week. Food'n'fuel is a good way to keep'm moving.

How does the game end? With the death of the player character? If so, then obviously you don't need a point counter since you have the day and hour and minute counter, which turns into points at the end.

You can find a portable radio in the game? Radio transmissions could reveal the current biggest spawn points and where they will appear next (i.e. the movements of the biggest zombie mobs), so there would be a strategic element to the player's looking for new oxygen tanks for his oxygen suit that protects him from the zombie chemicals in the air (muted sounds from the outside world, heavy breathing). The day and night cycle is so short because the moon which is the setting is so small, the moon of Pluto, for example. Pluto may not have a moon, but everyone knows it is small, so if you say it has a small moon, that is very easy to believe. Maybe it's a prison moon for extremely dangerous political prisoners. At first it was small and remote, so that there would be no need for anyone to raise too many eyebrows over it. Anyway, after a certain number of days (of points), the space ship which the player can fly at the speed of gravity to the headquarters of the galactic military-corporate entity responsible for the plague in the prison moon, which, after all, was getting crowded, becomes operable and the game beatable, but on the "realistic" difficulty level no such luck (so it's all about points in the end).

 

[Jeff Graw]

Why would it matter how long a cycle is, unless one day is different than the next? It's completely pointless like day and night cycles are in most RPGs, unless there is need for rest.

:facepalm:

Zombies storm at night.

 

[sheek]

Um, they're not vampires...

Yes, they're more dangerous during one half of the cycle, my point is that to make one 24 hour cycle different than the next one they need to be separated.

 

[Andhaira]

How about implementing martial art styles? Say at char gen you can choose your characters prior profession. So if he's a cop he starts with a pistol. If he's a financial analyst he starts with a calcuator. A martial artist though starts with a martial art style of his choice. In a game with limited ammo it can be a powerful choice.

Sure martial arts wont hurt zombies much but a flying kick could be useful for pushing them outta the way.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I ask inane questions.

 

[Ion Flux]

If he's a financial analyst he starts with a calcuator.

 

[Jeff Graw]

my point is that to make one 24 hour cycle different than the next one they need to be separated.

Your communication skills suck. Assuming I've gotten your sloppy message right, then no. My suggestion is to make the cycle adjustable at the beginning of the game, not to make each individual cycle in one game adjustable. Why would you even think that to begin with?

 

[nomask7]

http://www.youtube.com/v/05zr1siFphA

(Watch without sound.)

 

[sheek]

my point is that to make one 24 hour cycle different than the next one they need to be separated.

Your communication skills suck. Assuming I've gotten your sloppy message right, then no. My suggestion is to make the cycle adjustable at the beginning of the game, not to make each individual cycle in one game adjustable. Why would you even think that to begin with?

I agree that my communications skills suck, but I think your comprehension skills could do with improvement as well. I wasn't arguing against what you said, I was adding to my previous post.

What I suggested was that breaks in between segments of gameplay are necessary for two reasons:

First: survival games need breaks in them of some sort. This could be done through a succession of levels with different map new objectives and higher difficulty but it wouldn't work for Cleve's game since he wants an open world and an emergent story. Having to think about finding a place to sleep, and what you will be able achieve in the next 18 game hours breaks up the game and gives you goals without having to use linearising levels.

Second: it helps with immersion because sleep is part of survival horror. The fear of being caught off guard, nightmares, the idea that you are being worn down by creatures who themselves never need to rest, all of these make for a good horror atmosphere. A standard FPS doesn't capture any of that.

 

[Sckarecrow92]

If you're going to add a sleep mechanic, I recommend making one where the player must sleep in order to be at peak efficiency. I think forcing the player to find a balance between staying awake and resting would add tension.

In the Sims games, there's an energy meter that begins to deplete whilst the character stays awake, which affects how much sleep the sim requires to stay happy. Give the pc in the game a similar energy meter. Make it so that the character would suffer massive penalties from lack of sleep, so much that sleep becomes necessary for survival. Make it so the player can decide to stay up all day/all night, or take cat naps throughout the day to conserve energy. It would be cool if the player had to take care of himself, as well as his weapons and shelter.

To add realism, don't let the player decide outright how long he's going to sleep, like in Morrowind when you could simply select how many hours you'd like to spend resting. Instead, rely on the energy meter to say how long the player will rest. Like, the player will not awaken until the entire meter is filled again.

And, while sleeping, the player should still be killed if a zombie happens upon the player. If the pc has a high enough energy, he might be able to notice he's in danger because of being disturbed from hearing footsteps, or something, but if the pc's just dead tired, and he's found, he's just dead. Make it so the player has to pay attention to where he decides to sleep, because while he's sleeping, he has no control.

In my opinion, the game should be more about the player's survival than zombies. It should, to me, be a simple survival simulator that takes place during a zombie apocalypse.

 

[rpgcodexusername]

Unity engine, good choice, bit pricey for me though

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

If you're going to add a sleep mechanic, I recommend making one where the player must sleep in order to be at peak efficiency. I think forcing the player to find a balance between staying awake and resting would add tension.

In the Sims games, there's an energy meter that begins to deplete whilst the character stays awake, which affects how much sleep the sim requires to stay happy. Give the pc in the game a similar energy meter. Make it so that the character would suffer massive penalties from lack of sleep, so much that sleep becomes necessary for survival. Make it so the player can decide to stay up all day/all night, or take cat naps throughout the day to conserve energy. It would be cool if the player had to take care of himself, as well as his weapons and shelter.

To add realism, don't let the player decide outright how long he's going to sleep, like in Morrowind when you could simply select how many hours you'd like to spend resting. Instead, rely on the energy meter to say how long the player will rest. Like, the player will not awaken until the entire meter is filled again.

And, while sleeping, the player should still be killed if a zombie happens upon the player. If the pc has a high enough energy, he might be able to notice he's in danger because of being disturbed from hearing footsteps, or something, but if the pc's just dead tired, and he's found, he's just dead. Make it so the player has to pay attention to where he decides to sleep, because while he's sleeping, he has no control.

In my opinion, the game should be more about the player's survival than zombies. It should, to me, be a simple survival simulator that takes place during a zombie apocalypse.

This is good. I thought Fallout 3 handled sleep pretty well except it should have incurred a higher penalty the longer you went without it. Click on a bunk/mattress when you find one, if there are no zombies you're allowed to sleep otherwise you wake up if they wander closer to where you are and you have to get up.

I take great pleasure in my collection of highly detailed, grungy, nasty post apocalyptic mattress models. There is nothing that quite describes the post-apocalypse as well as a dirty, filthy stained mattress in the middle of a dingy room littered with trash.

I also have a lot of terrific cloth and paper garbage decals that can be scattered around liberally on the floor, they seem to add a lot of atmosphere. A stained ruined mattress with a disgusting towel lying crumpled next to it and a cobweb covered corpse in the corner. A great place to bed down and get some sleep.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

Unity engine, good choice, bit pricey for me though

Seriously worth every penny. I wish I could get a refund for the other 10 engines I bought, all of them absolute crap. Other engines are "an exercise for the reader." As in "have fun getting it to run anything but the demo."

 

[Kingston]

Click on a bunk/mattress when you find one, if there are no zombies you're allowed to sleep otherwise you wake up if they wander closer to where you are and you have to get up.

Make sure you can't die when you are asleep. That'd just be annoying rather than scary. You go to sleep and a message pops up saying "You are dead" does not make for good gameplay. Always give the player a chance to survive. Choosing a good spot to sleep will decrease the chances of zombies finding you, so it is still an important factor. But if you pick a crap spot you'll still be woken up and a have a chance of running away.

I'm not sure if there should be a "You can't sleep because monsters are nearby" message. That'd ruin some of the atmosphere. E.g. You're not sure if there are zombies up the stairs, so you walk half-way and click on your mattress to check if you can sleep.

Giving the player as little information as possible would be the best route imo. A player always need to go check things himself, or take the risk of assuming something.

 

[Trash]

The idea tp want to have a few different zombie models that do different things is a great one. That way you can eliminate possible player safe area's like sewers, ducts, rooftops and the like. The player should never feel safe for a longer period of time. The neverending need to forage for supplies and perhaps increasing the number of zombie spawns the longer one stays in one area should help here.

Don't get dragged into silly plotlines. Uncertainty is a good way to keep a player on his toes. Same with adding all sorts of features like martial art styles. From what you said so far I gather It shouldn't be about players taking out zombies stylishly with kung-fu, it should be about desperate survivors doing all they can not to become another fatality. Thirdly writing out a few rules and let the player work within them is an awesome idea. Emergent gameplay is a nice buzzword, but if you can get it to work it actually is pretty cool.

Really like the stuff you're saying here Cleve, looking forward to a decade of waiting.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Really like the stuff you're saying here Cleve, looking forward to a decade of waiting.

Joking aside, since it's a hobby project, he should definitely take his time, because there is no need to rush it.

This is not a large scale project with strict deadlines, and it makes complete sense to take advantage of the luxury of time. We always have something else to play anyway, and in the meantime, Corpse Crew should just keep getting refined as much as possible.

Of course, that does mean we might never see it; but it's not like we have anything to lose either; and in the meantime, we get the fun of throwing around ideas, and seeing what we all think of it. And if an actual game comes out of it, all the better.

However I don't mean to encourage putting in bloated and unreasonable features into it either.