Decline Critical role ruined PnP

[JamesDixon]

I think it's a bit more complex than that.

It's not. The axis are Good =/= selfless, Evil =/= selfishness, Law =/= organization, and Chaos =/= independence. How the two axis interacts determines the extent of said evil or good.

Evil in DnD is also related to sociopathy, casual acts of cruelty and so on.

Evil is just selfishness. What you are looking for is the intersection between evil and the other axis that goes from Lawful to Chaos. Chaotic Evil is pure psychopathy while Lawful Evil is using the government to realize your selfish goals. Removing a person's life in either case would have hanging being a fit punishment, but not for stealing/not sharing food to survive.

Would it be considered an evil act to use magic to turn someone's Alignment to Good?

Depends on if the character performing the spell is Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic. Under a Lawful axis it's a good thing as you are pursuing the greater good of the entirety of the people. If you're neutral it's not evil in the slightest. You have no opinion on the matter. If you're Chaotic then yes, it's an evil act as you are removing a person's will/independence from the equation.

AD&D 2E has the best explanation on the alignments and makes it all clear. The following are from the PHB and DMG respectively.

Spoiler

DMG pages 38-39

Spoiler

I hope that clears up my position. I'll ask my question again, "If a person that doesn't share his food (evil =/= selfish) does that warrant him being put to death by a paladin or even a Lawful cleric?"

My answer using the alignment explanation from AD&D 2E would be no. Not sharing your food isn't a criminal offense as it is your property. If there is a famine going on and the society needs that food the only Lawful Neutral/Lawful Good option available to the paladin/cleric is to purchase the food from the individual. A Lawful Evil cleric would use the law/government as the method to seize the food from the individual.

 

[NecroLord]

Would it be considered an evil act to use magic to turn someone's Alignment to Good?

I would say so, yeah.
It's one thing to redeem an evil person or creature, but to forcefully shift his alignment and values?
One of the reasons I don't like the Enchantment school of magic. You can do some pretty evil stuff with the spells of that school.

 

[JamesDixon]

Would it be considered an evil act to use magic to turn someone's Alignment to Good?

I would say so, yeah.
It's one thing to redeem an evil person or creature, but to forcefully shift his alignment and values?
One of the reasons I don't like the Enchantment school of magic. You can do some pretty evil stuff with the spells of that school.

It all depends upon the alignment of the person casting the spell. See my explanation above.

 

[lightbane]

Related to that: Would it be considered an evil act to use magic to turn someone's Alignment to Good?

Is that even possible?

Absolutely. Here's two examples:

https://www.5esrd.com/spellcasting/3pp-spells/spells-troll-lord-games/atonement/

Spoiler

Atonement​

5th-level abjuration (ritual)


Casting Time: 1 hour


Range: Touch


Saving Throw: None


Components: V, S, M, F, DF


Duration: Instant


This spell removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you.


However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds and acts of a knowing and willful nature, you must intercede with your deity in order to expunge the subject’s burden. Many casters first assign a subject of this sort a quest (see geas) or similar penance to determine whether the creature is truly contrite before casting the atonement spell on its behalf.


Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected.

• Reverse Magical Alignment Change. If a creature has had its alignment magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no cost in experience points.
• Restore Class. A paladin who has lost her class features due to committing an evil act may have her paladinhood restored to her by this spell.
• Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers. A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of his or her deity may regain that ability, by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the receiving cleric or druid must fail a Wisdom save or the spell fails. They must attempt this save and cannot choose to fail it.
• Redemption or Temptation. You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or on any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally. Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can also be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment, whether those acts are evil, good, chaotic, or lawful.

Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player. This use of atonement simply offers a believable way for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/ba...mist-discoveries/change-alignment-greater-su/

Spoiler

Change Alignment, Greater (Su)​

Prerequisites: Alchemist 20, change alignment discovery, infusion discovery


Benefits: The effects of the alchemist’s change alignment infusion become permanent and can only be reversed by a wish or miracle. A permanent, forced change of alignment may be devastating, and some believe it is little better than zealous slavery or mind control. Others consider a good alignment brought about by any means but purity of heart an affront to freedom. This discovery remains controversial at best.

Evil is just selfishness. What you are looking for is the intersection between evil and the other axis that goes from Lawful to Chaos. Chaotic Evil is pure psychopathy while Lawful Evil is using the government to realize your selfish goals. Removing a person's life in either case would have hanging being a fit punishment, but not for stealing/not sharing food to survive.

Fair enough. What about monsters then that are evil by default?
Ie: Mindflayers or demons.

I'll ask my question again, "If a person that doesn't share his food (evil =/= selfish) does that warrant him being put to death by a paladin or even a Lawful cleric?"

In that case, then no. It would be excessive.

 

[NecroLord]

Demons are made from the raw stuff of Chaos and Evil. They embody Chaotic Evil and the Abyss.
Changing a demon's alignment is impossible(barring divine intervention).

 

[JamesDixon]

Fair enough. What about monsters then that are evil by default?
Ie: Mindflayers or demons.

Demons are formed from evil and the intersecting alignment of Lawful, Neutral, and Chaos. You can't change them and if you do you effectively "kill" their current form. Demons will always reform in a new body that has their default alignment.

Mind Flayers are different since they are sentient. They can choose to be a different alignment if they so desire. Keep in mind that their society is Lawful Evil which means the Elder Brain runs the society as it sees fit. Mind Flayers that are cut off from the Elder Brain have a tendency to go insane as they require the constant communication of the Elder Brain.

In that case, then no. It would be excessive.

Evil is really cut and dry when it is defined as selfishness. What most people think of is that guy is evil so we have to kill them or kobolds are evil and we have to slaughter that entire village. Killing children and non-combatants is evil since they are noncombatants. Kobolds are conquerors that want to strip everything of value for survival not pleasure. Not because they enjoy it, but rather for survival. Every other race out there wants to genocide them, thus their selfishness is born out of pure survival instinct. That's not Mustache twirling I'm going to nuke the world for pleasure evil.

 

[Reinhardt]

we have speshul thread for this "can i change lolth alighnment UwU?" shit

 

[Gargaune]

A Paladin will not just barge into a tavern and start slaughtering everyone in it just because they register as Evil on his Detect Evil radar.

Phandalyn​

Phandalyn is a paladin who can be found in the Tavern and Inn located against the western wall in Southwest Baldur's Gate between the hours of 4:30 am to 8:30 pm. He will initiate dialogue upon sight. If you have no evil party members, he will say,

"Your party is free of the taint of evil. Please pass unmolested."

He will attack the party if it has at least one evil member.

"I sense evil in your party, friend. I cannot allow you or your evil companions to threaten the good people of Baldur's Gate."

 

[NecroLord]

A Paladin will not just barge into a tavern and start slaughtering everyone in it just because they register as Evil on his Detect Evil radar.

Phandalyn​

Phandalyn is a paladin who can be found in the Tavern and Inn located against the western wall in Southwest Baldur's Gate between the hours of 4:30 am to 8:30 pm. He will initiate dialogue upon sight. If you have no evil party members, he will say,

"Your party is free of the taint of evil. Please pass unmolested."

He will attack the party if it has at least one evil member.

"I sense evil in your party, friend. I cannot allow you or your evil companions to threaten the good people of Baldur's Gate."

• In the original Baldur's Gate, Phandalyn is not a true paladin, but an innocent – whose murder results in a loss of reputation that varies according to current party reputation. In addition, he is not given an alignment. The Enhanced Edition changes his class to paladin and makes him lawful good. His murder does still entail the same reputation loss as murdering an innocent.

Ha ha!
That's a Wotc nu-Paladin.
Like I said, a Paladin is kind of like a surgeon. He has several tools at his disposal to surgically get rid of evil. He has the choice of getting rid of a Balor or some small time thief. Which one do you think he will go after? The small time thief might be redeemed, while the Balor is one of the Abyss's most depraved creations.

 

[Morblot]

Re: Detect Evil, I just read somewhere that the spell works differently depending on the edition you're playing. In 3.5 (which is not Real D&D, thank you JamesDixon, I know), the one most familiar to me, it does not detect your run of the mill orcs or evil commoners as their auras just aren't powerful enough. Of the PC classes, I think only clerics and paladins radiate an aura from the get go. More powerful beings (such as PCs of at least fifth level, IIRC) are picked up by the spell, of course.

 

[NecroLord]

Re: Detect Evil, I just read somewhere that the spell works differently depending on the edition you're playing. In 3.5 (which is not Real D&D, thank you JamesDixon, I know), the one most familiar to me, it does not detect your run of the mill orcs or evil commoners as their auras just aren't powerful enough. Of the PC classes, I think only clerics and paladins radiate an aura from the get go. More powerful beings (such as PCs of at least fifth level, IIRC) are picked up by the spell, of course.

Indeed.
The Paladin radar, if you will.
Depends on how powerful(in terms of Hit Die) a creature is, also if it is a cleric of a deity of a certain alignment on the lawful-chaotic, good-evil axis.
Again, a Demon Lord will probably radiate a sickeningly evil aura that would overwhelm the one casting Detect Evil. A small time thief or bandit? Not so much.

 

[JamesDixon]

Re: Detect Evil, I just read somewhere that the spell works differently depending on the edition you're playing. In 3.5 (which is not Real D&D, thank you JamesDixon, I know), the one most familiar to me, it does not detect your run of the mill orcs or evil commoners as their auras just aren't powerful enough. Of the PC classes, I think only clerics and paladins radiate an aura from the get go. More powerful beings (such as PCs of at least fifth level, IIRC) are picked up by the spell, of course.

Here's AD&D 2E's true version of Detect Evil.

Paladins can detect the presence of evil intent up to 60 feet away by concentrating on locating evil in a single direction. He can do this multiple times, but each time takes 1 minute.

Paladins also get an aura of protection that has a 10 foot radius. All evil creatures suffer a -1 penalty to their attack rolls. The creatures know the source of the aura automatically.

Clerics do not gain any special abilities like the Paladin does.

 

[Zombra]

Looked at some but not all of the thread. Seems like a lot of these failed groups don't understand the importance of a "session zero" where the DM and players lay the ground rules for expectations; instead, everyone just assumes that anything goes ... until their own trigger points are hit.

When playing with people you don't already know, the Consent in Gaming Checklist is a really nice tool. The rape surviving DM above could have let her players know beforehand, this subject is off limits. The OP could have let his group know that a campaign focus on explicit gay porn was not OK with him. Etc. Even if you are a tough free speech kind of guy who think you can handle anything, it's not a bad idea to let the team know up front that My Little Pony fanfic will not be tolerated.

 

[Dadd]

Here's a better idea. Don't play with people you don't already know.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

The one time I played tabletop, it was with one friend and a bunch of 50+ year old soyboys. I spent the whole time talking with the autistic GM about Pizzagate instead of playing the game.

 

[LabRat]

OGL is dead now.

 

[Fedora Master]

 

[JamesDixon]

OGL is dead now.

It was dead the moment it was introduced. People are stupid and don't realize that mechanics can't be copyrighted or patented. By submitting yourself to the creator of a game system you are putting yourself under their control just to have access to their trademark i.e. that name of the rules system.

 

[Karwelas]

Here's a better idea. Don't play with people you don't already know.

That is retarded idea. I meet shitton of good and bad people playing online tabletop and if not some of them, I would be much worse person in my life than I am now. One of my teams organized going into Budapest next year, we are just going to crash, drink good alcohol and eat shitton of good food.

You guys really ought to brighten sometimes, because while I see that there is lot of merit in avoiding strangers, it is ultimately social hobby.

Not to mention these Codex Games with JamesDixon (Star Wars) and Gregz Night Goat and few others I have forgotten.

 

[JamesDixon]

Here's a better idea. Don't play with people you don't already know.

That is retarded idea. I meet shitton of good and bad people playing online tabletop and if not some of them, I would be much worse person in my life than I am now. One of my teams organized going into Budapest next year, we are just going to crash, drink good alcohol and eat shitton of good food.

You guys really ought to brighten sometimes, because while I see that there is lot of merit in avoiding strangers, it is ultimately social hobby.

Not to mention these Codex Games with JamesDixon (Star Wars) and Gregz Night Goat and few others I have forgotten.

I miss gaming with ya dude and wish you were in my AD&D 2E game.

 

[Karwelas]

Here's a better idea. Don't play with people you don't already know.

That is retarded idea. I meet shitton of good and bad people playing online tabletop and if not some of them, I would be much worse person in my life than I am now. One of my teams organized going into Budapest next year, we are just going to crash, drink good alcohol and eat shitton of good food.

You guys really ought to brighten sometimes, because while I see that there is lot of merit in avoiding strangers, it is ultimately social hobby.

Not to mention these Codex Games with JamesDixon (Star Wars) and Gregz Night Goat and few others I have forgotten.

I miss gaming with ya dude and wish you were in my AD&D 2E game.

I miss gaming with ya too! I will take a look at my schedule in January but I can't promise anything - already playing three campaigns and starting GMing my own 40K stuff.

 

[JamesDixon]

Here's a better idea. Don't play with people you don't already know.

That is retarded idea. I meet shitton of good and bad people playing online tabletop and if not some of them, I would be much worse person in my life than I am now. One of my teams organized going into Budapest next year, we are just going to crash, drink good alcohol and eat shitton of good food.

You guys really ought to brighten sometimes, because while I see that there is lot of merit in avoiding strangers, it is ultimately social hobby.

Not to mention these Codex Games with JamesDixon (Star Wars) and Gregz Night Goat and few others I have forgotten.

I miss gaming with ya dude and wish you were in my AD&D 2E game.

I miss gaming with ya too! I will take a look at my schedule in January but I can't promise anything - already playing three campaigns and starting GMing my own 40K stuff.

Just check the event schedule on my discord to see if it works for ya. Merry Christmas bud.

 

[NecroLord]

You guys really ought to brighten sometimes, because while I see that there is lot of merit in avoiding strangers, it is ultimately social hobby.

Fuck no.
The vast majority of people you meet in real life are retarded sheep, who will turn on you if it suits their purposes or stand to gain.
Yeah, maybe out of twenty retards, there might be two or three who are worth it.

 

[JamesDixon]

You guys really ought to brighten sometimes, because while I see that there is lot of merit in avoiding strangers, it is ultimately social hobby.

Fuck no.
The vast majority of people you meet in real life are retarded sheep, who will turn on you if it suits their purposes or stand to gain.
Yeah, maybe out of twenty retards, there might two or three who are worth it.

I love you too.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

You guys really ought to brighten sometimes, because while I see that there is lot of merit in avoiding strangers, it is ultimately social hobby.

Fuck no.
The vast majority of people you meet in real life are retarded sheep, who will turn on you if it suits their purposes or stand to gain.
Yeah, maybe out of twenty retards, there might two or three who are worth it.

I love you too.

I miss gaming with you. Hell I keep missing the games because the time zones do not work out ever