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Decline Critical role ruined PnP

WhiteShark

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I can think of reasons why your resistance to burn damage might be strange and finicky, but if that is the case you could just make a new advantage to represent them (and they probably will end up looking less contrived than how you might end up justifying the game as is).
...
My point is that, for a "simulationist" game, I expect something where the rules are molded to fit with the fictional reality of the game (that might include things like aliens, psionic powers and nuclear battery powered lasers), not the other way around.
The problem with this approach is that it is incompatible with being a Generic Universal Role Playing System. If you bind together effects at the rules level you suddenly need to build every conceivable permutation of every conceivable power. This approach is only feasible if you are modelling a specific world. It does not work as a toolbox. Presumably this is why 3E didn't take this approach with everything either. 4E committed to being generic and gives all the effects you need to model anything. It is a toolbox. Perhaps that does make it less simulationist in that more of the simulating responsibility falls on the GM, but that's the price for being generic and universal.

I don't think the term 'balance' is correct here; I would describe it as distillation, the paring down of effects to their fundamentals. Nobody, least of all SJG, believes GURPS is balanced. If HERO does a better job of this, I'm interested to hear how. It tends to get namedropped in these sorts of discussions but I've never played it and the community that does seems to be vanishingly small.
 

JamesDixon

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
I don't think the term 'balance' is correct here; I would describe it as distillation, the paring down of effects to their fundamentals. Nobody, least of all SJG, believes GURPS is balanced. If HERO does a better job of this, I'm interested to hear how. It tends to get namedropped in these sorts of discussions but I've never played it and the community that does seems to be vanishingly small.

I've played way more Hero than I have of GURPS, so my reply will reflect that. Hero defines balance based upon character points allocated as a total. Each type of campaign has specific limits on point expenditure. It is not balanced in the way it's being used here. You can have a 350 point superhero that is a speedster that spent one third of their points into Dex, Speed, and Movement compared that to the Energy Projector that split their points between movement, defense, and attacks with more of a focus on defense and attacks.

If you throw in a 75 point normal into the mix the normal will get smoked unless you gear them up in the equivalent amount of points.
 

Norfleet

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It's only separate at the level of the rules, and for good reason. The expectation is that you take the advantages that logically represent your character in the fiction. If the source of your resistance to ambient heat should also make you resistant to heat damage, then you should take those two advantages in tandem. On the other hand, I can think of plenty of reasons why they might be separate.
Well, I mean, technically speaking, "fire" and "heat" damage are two very separate things. A thing could sustain "heat" damage by partial or complete melting due to exposure to extreme heat even while not being flammable at all. On the other hand, chlorine trifluoride (aka "Satan's Piss") exists, so that same thing can start taking "fire" damage from being on fire (despite not normally being flammable) due to being consumed by the chemical reaction of burning while staying well within its thermal tolerances.
 

Alex

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I can think of reasons why your resistance to burn damage might be strange and finicky, but if that is the case you could just make a new advantage to represent them (and they probably will end up looking less contrived than how you might end up justifying the game as is).
...
My point is that, for a "simulationist" game, I expect something where the rules are molded to fit with the fictional reality of the game (that might include things like aliens, psionic powers and nuclear battery powered lasers), not the other way around.
The problem with this approach is that it is incompatible with being a Generic Universal Role Playing System.

And yet it was in the first to third edition of the generic universal system that, as far as I know, this approach was done the best. Modular powers is not necessary for GURPS to be generic; and in fact the old magic system remaining in the game opens up the possibility of ignoring the modular powers altogether, even in 4e.

GURPS approach has always been that of a toolbox, giving rules from the most generic case and giving the GM options and instructions so they can choose how to deal with things in their games.

If you bind together effects at the rules level you suddenly need to build every conceivable permutation of every conceivable power. This approach is only feasible if you are modelling a specific world. It does not work as a toolbox. Presumably this is why 3E didn't take this approach with everything either.

Not really. Take, again, GURPS magic. It didn't consider all the different ways magic could work in a fantastic setting. In fact, it is actually quite peculiar to GURPS. GMs can either use it as is, add one or two house rules or butcher the system entirely. For instance, GURPS: Mage the Ascension uses an entirely different system that mimics the rules of the White Wolf game.

This approach doesn't even preclude the system from having some modular systems, provided the pieces of such systems remain grounded in the fictional reality.

4E committed to being generic and gives all the effects you need to model anything. It is a toolbox. Perhaps that does make it less simulationist in that more of the simulating responsibility falls on the GM, but that's the price for being generic and universal.

4e is not more generic than 3e. In fact, it is impossible to represent something like immunity to fire that in 3e was done with a single advantage.

I don't think the term 'balance' is correct here; I would describe it as distillation, the paring down of effects to their fundamentals. Nobody, least of all SJG, believes GURPS is balanced.

Well, the point system is in there for balance, that is by definition what a point system does. Although it is up to debate what is being balanced in first place. But if you prefer, we might call it an economy instead. The powers system has an economy, defined by the generic power costs that make up the system. One reason "immunity" is not a valid power in 4e (by raw, at least) is that it would mess the economy of DRs. This by itself is not a problem if powers are a separate subsystem, but 4e tried to make them indistinguishable from advantages.

If HERO does a better job of this, I'm interested to hear how. It tends to get namedropped in these sorts of discussions but I've never played it and the community that does seems to be vanishingly small.
It is the same design principle; though in HERO, you don't have several other systems like magic or technology that do their own thing. Instead almost everything is done through powers. The exception to the rule is skills, but skills pretty much either interact with powers or do very specific things that fall out of the scope of easily accounted for.

Personally, I think the places where it shines over GURPS Powers is how it deals with modifiers and it's "power frameworks", which are ways to represent an ability suite or similar concepts.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
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It is a retarded idea to play with strangers.

A stranger's just a friend you haven't met.
As was featured in the musical version of A Streetcar Named Desire in The Simpsons episode "A Streetcar Named Marge" (season 4, episode 2):

Marge: Whoever you are, I have always depended on the kindness of strangers.
Ensemble: You can always depend on the kindness of strangers
To pluck up your spirits and shield you from dangers.
Marge: Now here's a tip from Blanche you won't regret.
Cast: A stranger's just a friend you haven't met!
You haven't met!
STREETCAR!

giphy.gif
giphy.gif
giphy.gif
 

LabRat

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Some people say that roleplaying is important, but without intelligence or decisiveness as the basis for player actions, roleplaying will only be boring and sloppy.
 

Risewild

Arbiter
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Mar 23, 2018
Messages
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Australia
I don't think Critical Role ruined PnP.

All the people that CR influenced would be people I would have never played PnP even if CR had never existed. And if it also influenced any PnP systems, those would also not be the ones I would ever play.
 
Joined
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The most boring fantasy anime of all time, yes.
Lodoss was actually the creators' DND campaign, which they turned into manga and anime. It has spawned a whole franchise includingg, IIRC, a pnp game based on the Lodoss world, outside of the other videogames you can find out there.
 

madbringer

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I don't think Critical Role ruined PnP.

All the people that CR influenced would be people I would have never played PnP even if CR had never existed. And if it also influenced any PnP systems, those would also not be the ones I would ever play.
Best take in this thread. Most people on that show, except maybe the chaddy dude with a beard, would like to see you and your family dead if you're to the right of Nixon. Fuck them and fuck their pozzed shit.
 

Longes

Augur
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Jan 13, 2013
Messages
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I don't think Critical Role ruined PnP.

All the people that CR influenced would be people I would have never played PnP even if CR had never existed. And if it also influenced any PnP systems, those would also not be the ones I would ever play.
Best take in this thread. Most people on that show, except maybe the chaddy dude with a beard, would like to see you and your family dead if you're to the right of Nixon. Fuck them and fuck their pozzed shit.
Uhhhh. To the right of Nixon is pretty damn far to the right.
 

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