D&D 5E Discussion

[Irenaeus II]

Anything over level 10 5 is super hero material.

 

[DavidBVal]

Yeah, I once read an article that proved that 3.5 was actually kind of realistic, if you take into consideration that Gandalf and Aragorn would be level 5 characters.

EDIT: you probably already know it, but here it is: http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2

 

[Irenaeus II]

D&D PCs are indeed insanely powerful.

 

[DavidBVal]

Okay, let's go on with the nitpicking.

Spell saving throws suck. They're extremely hard to resist.

Level 1 Wizard with 16 INT cast a spell on a level 20 Fighter with 10 WIS.

DC= 8+2+3=13. Fighter adds 0 to save and needs a 13 to save. This feels extremely wrong.

If we make the Wizard level 20 with 20 INT, then unless you're playing a class with proficiency in WIS saves, or have some other class feature, you need a 19 to save.

I was hoping, we'd actually see something more similar to 2e (level 20 fighter was 4+ to save, if I remember well), and maybe spellcasters would again rely on damage spells in battle, and only on ocassion use save spells when level difference allows or when they have no choice but risk all to a roll. But I guess not, they still got a "win" button.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Level 20 Fighter uses anti-magic helmet. Problem solved.

 

[Night Goat]

This is the edition for people who think letting players choose their own magic items is giving them too much freedom, so the only way he's getting that helmet is through DM pity.

 

[Spectacle]

Okay, let's go on with the nitpicking.

Spell saving throws suck. They're extremely hard to resist.

Level 1 Wizard with 16 INT cast a spell on a level 20 Fighter with 10 WIS.

DC= 8+2+3=13. Fighter adds 0 to savem and needs a 13 to save. This feels extremely wrong.

If we make the Wizard level 20 with 20 INT, then unless you're playing a class with proficiency in WIS saves, or have some other class feature, you need a 19 to save.

I was hoping, we'd actually see something more similar to 2e (level 20 fighter was 4+ to save, if I remember well), and maybe spellcasters would again rely on damage spells in battle, and only on ocassion use save spells when level difference allows or when they have no choice but risk all to a roll. But I guess not, they still got a "win" button.

Saves are definitely a problem in 5E. Your good saves more or less keep up with the DCs as you level up, while your bad saves get no better, but go from bad to horrible relative to enemy DCs. Taking the feat that gives proficiency in WIS saves is more or less mandatory at higher levels if you don't want to risk being completely shut down in combat.

Boss monsters have legendary resistance to protect themselves though, so casters can't win high level battles with the right spell just like that.

 

[Irenaeus II]

You are a really bad munchkin, Night Goat. You think RPGs are about having the best PC in the party and have zero imagination. You truly sicken me.

 

[DavidBVal]

Okay, let's go on with the nitpicking.

Spell saving throws suck. They're extremely hard to resist.

Level 1 Wizard with 16 INT cast a spell on a level 20 Fighter with 10 WIS.

DC= 8+2+3=13. Fighter adds 0 to savem and needs a 13 to save. This feels extremely wrong.

If we make the Wizard level 20 with 20 INT, then unless you're playing a class with proficiency in WIS saves, or have some other class feature, you need a 19 to save.

I was hoping, we'd actually see something more similar to 2e (level 20 fighter was 4+ to save, if I remember well), and maybe spellcasters would again rely on damage spells in battle, and only on ocassion use save spells when level difference allows or when they have no choice but risk all to a roll. But I guess not, they still got a "win" button.

Saves are definitely a problem in 5E. Your good saves more or less keep up with the DCs as you level up, while your bad saves get no better, but go from bad to horrible relative to enemy DCs. Taking the feat that gives proficiency in WIS saves is more or less mandatory at higher levels if you don't want to risk being completely shut down in combat.

Boss monsters have legendary resistance to protect themselves though, so casters can't win high level battles with the right spell just like that.

I suppose a possible fix would be, always adding proficiency to all saves, and add again if you are actually proficient. Or removing the proficiency from the DC. What you can't do, is having a bonus that grows with levels, on just one side of the roll, while the other never goes up.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Fighters get to reroll failed saves at level 9. They have a 64% chance of rolling a 13.

 

[Irenaeus II]

36% chance to fail and be destroyed by a level 1 wizard #LMAO

 

[Alchemist]

36% chance to fail and be destroyed by a level 1 wizard #LMAO

What spell would a level 1 wizard cast that could actually threaten a high level fighter? Even Sleep wouldn't work since the fighter would have too many hit points beyond 5d8.

If we make the Wizard level 20 with 20 INT, then unless you're playing a class with proficiency in WIS saves, or have some other class feature, you need a 19 to save.

Makes perfect sense to me - a high level wizard with that much INT should be extremely formidable especially against jar-headed fighter types. The trade-off is, if the fighter gets close enough the wizard gets cut down pretty quick.

 

[Irenaeus II]

36% chance to fail and be destroyed by a level 1 wizard #LMAO

What spell would a level 1 wizard cast that could actually threaten a high level fighter? Even Sleep wouldn't work since the fighter would have too many hit points beyond 5d8.

Hmmm... so not much danger from a level 1 wizard to a level 20 fighter after all.

 

[DavidBVal]

36% chance to fail and be destroyed by a level 1 wizard #LMAO

What spell would a level 1 wizard cast that could actually threaten a high level fighter? Even Sleep wouldn't work since the fighter would have too many hit points beyond 5d8.

Hmmm... so not much danger from a level 1 wizard to a level 20 fighter after all.

The point is still valid, sure charm person is not incapacitating (Still pathetic that it can condition a level 20 character). But make it a level 3 wizard castilg hold person, and sure, the fighter can reroll but he can use that power just once/rest, and most other classes don't have that. Sure there is exceptions, but saving vs spells in this game is a nightmare. Personally I dislike that design choice, a lot.

In this game, you save worse and worse as you level up vs casters of your same level. Even if they don't raise their casting stat, and you take a few points in it to improve the save, you'll save worse as you level, because of the proficiency bonus. Feels like a design flaw to me.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I wonder if adding the proficiency progression for non-proficient saves at half the rate would solve most of these issues. Then the fighter should get a +3 (rather than +6) bonus to the save and the save would be 10 against the low level wizard and 16 against the high level wizard. I haven't looked at the books in awhile, but it's not as if the system is full of 2E style save or die abilities and such, so this shouldn't be that bad even though the high level fighter has a 45% chance of getting hit by a low level wizard's spell.

 

[tdphys]

A lot of the Hold Person / Charm spells etc require concentration; So while a wizard vs one figher might be one sided, as soon as you have an extra person to give a couple of good whacks to the wizard to break concentration, balance is restored.

Having poor spell saves on high level characters is part of the charm of 5e and requires team play... The way the spells are balanced is that damage spells with saves tend to be pretty poor single target killers. There are only a few single target attack spells that get decent good damage and possible crit values; Everything else has a good chance to only do "half damage" monks and rogues get auto-half damage, paladins have auras that half spell damage.. barbarians have uber health...

It's all about assymmetry, and it's all awesome.

 

[Sam Ecorners]

Started playing Princes with buddies. Went to some keep, four of us -- A bard, a cleric, a fighter and my rogue, fucked up a dozen of bandits and then ran into a wereboar and some caster who turned into a serpent. Cleric went down. We didn't have time to stabilize him, so we kept on fighting. That asshole made 3 saves in a row. Half orc fighter went down next. She ended up stabilizing herself too. In the meantime I started moving away to gtfo, but decided to take a shot at the wereboar after my dash(I <3 cunning action). Ended up taking him down. Suddenly, there's a real possibility of winning this encounter. I decide to stay, so the serpent comes at me and entangles me. I try to hit him, only to realize he can't be hurt by piercing weapons. I only have a rapier and a bow. Suddenly I remember I stole a fancy dagger from a dungeon, behind the back of our dwarf cleric. Try to hit him with it. Turns out it's magic and the serpent is hurt. It disengages and fucks off to the nearest building. Me and the bard head to the exit. I have 6 hp, he has 11. On our way to the exit, we see that the serpent has now morphed back into the human form, so we say fuck it and rush the building. The bard takes few hits at him, while he eldritch blasts at us, while I get close to him and sneak attack the shit out of that asshole. Encounter won. I have 6 hp, bard has 5. The rest of the party is down, but stable. we drag them to the nearest guard tower and block doors so we can rest.

That was a great session.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Awesome account.

 

[DavidBVal]

Hey, the new Magic Missile throws 3 missiles at level 1, quite deadly, but it's reasonable. Average 10.5 damage with no save.

It is curious the way magic has been rebalanced, I'd say spells are more powerful overall, for instance, damage spells do a little more than they used to. 8d6 for a level 3 fireball at level 5, vs a simple 1d6/level. But they used to scale up automatically by caster level, now you have to spend higher level slots to scale up power, so that adds more choice where we had automatic scaling before. Nice.

Also, Concentration has changed things a lot. It's hard to wrap my head about this huge limitation, but for instance, never again you'll fly around invisible and then charm an enemy. It's one thing, or the other. This may bring the positive effect of direct damage spells being the most useful in battle, as they don't require concentration. That's something I like. Still trying to cope with the fact saving throws are so awful as you level up, because feels so unlike 2nd ed. but I really like the spellcasting balance in the big picture.

 

[Lhynn]

Saving throws are fine, the progression is fairly linear and easily capped, so the DC a mage lvl 1 and a mage lvl 20 puts on their spells isnt very different. Proficiency in Con and Wis saves is important which a fighter should easily have even at low levels.
Thats the reason why low level character are a threat even at high levels, you dont go to another plane of existence every couple of levels like you did in 3.5.

The biggest problem this edition has is capping progression at lvl 20, thats gamey shit.

 

[Dorateen]

In addition to acquiring the 5E Monster Manual and Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide yesterday, I also got a copy of

Empire of Imagination. A dramatized biography of E. Gary Gygax.

Spoiler

 

[LeStryfe79]

Beer and cigarettes? i always knew I made good life decisions.

 

[Lhynn]

Empire of Imagination. A dramatized biography of E. Gary Gygax.

Spoiler

Let me know if its any good.

 

[Dorateen]

Empire of Imagination. A dramatized biography of E. Gary Gygax.

Spoiler

Let me know if its any good.

Sure. So far, I find it fascinating. There is some good information here. But... stylistically, the author presents it as a novel telling Gygax's life story. This might test a reader's tolerance of taking such a whimsical approach. While told in the context of factual sources, it is not a dry academic biography.

In the middle of the book is about 15 pages of glossy black and white and full color photos, including some old TSR advertisements.

The inside of the hard cover has the city of Lake Geneva laid out like a gaming map on graph paper, with points of interest from Gygax's neighborhood.

 

[DavidBVal]

Sure. So far, I find it fascinating. There is some good information here. But... stylistically, the author presents it as a novel telling Gygax's life story. This might test a reader's tolerance of taking such a whimsical approach. While told in the context of factual sources, it is not a dry academic biography.

In the middle of the book is about 15 pages of glossy black and white and full color photos, including some old TSR advertisements.

The inside of the hard cover has the city of Lake Geneva laid out like a gaming map on graph paper, with points of interest from Gygax's neighborhood.

Okay. MUST. HAVE.