Wayward Son
Fails to keep valuable team members alive
I agree 100%, I think S&W is even easier to learn than the likes of 5e while maintaining that old school D&D feel
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D&D 5E Discussion
- Thread starter Alchemist
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2008
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- 2,900
13th Age.
hello friend
Arcane
Ey what are some good d6 systems? D6 has always been the holy grail for me, haven't seen much of good implementations apart from the outlines of Lithium Flower's very intriguing system from local Codex CYOA.
Shouldn't be any need for special dice outside of nostalgia, and if the stakes are higher in combat that's just a plus. When did d20 become a thing? Did Gygax and that other guy make their own, or what?
Shouldn't be any need for special dice outside of nostalgia, and if the stakes are higher in combat that's just a plus. When did d20 become a thing? Did Gygax and that other guy make their own, or what?
Theldaran
Liturgist
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2015
- Messages
- 1,772
I'm currently looking for an alternative to D&D. The loot worries me. I mean, it's cool and all to have a talking or a cursed sword, but in 3X at least there's a heavy dependence on magic items. Also I don't have much experience as a GM, so it's hard to balance, and even hard for the players to keep track of. I've always disliked high level D&D, and I'm looking for a system that holds up in the long run and allows several level ups without characters becoming munchkin machines.
Lithium Flower
Arcane
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2016
- Messages
- 1,832
Feel weird posting this in D&D Discussion, but since hello friend asked I will write a thing. Feel free to move this to a more relevant thread if necessary.
I exclusively run indie-RPG systems that use 2d6. Specifically, there is an entire family of systems sometimes referred to as "powered by Apocalypse" that I enjoy. These systems are, generally speaking, more narrativistic and less crunchy than D&D, with a tighter focus and fewer rules fewer rules, no segregation between combat and out-of-combat actions. A GM can make gameplay either extremely abstracted and cinematic or more detailed and tactical (I ran a difficult world crawl thing for a year thing using one of these systems so its certainly not a exclusively a narrativistic system) but you generally. Personally, I find that I have a lot of difficulty going back to the "Okay guys, combat is starting, let's roll for initiative" structure and greatly enjoy the more natural flow of 2d6 systems which I find to be much more intuitive than that of D20, though I admit that I have only played a handful of non 2d6 systems so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
To my knowledge it all started with Apocalypse World by Vincent Baker: http://apocalypse-world.com/
This system introduced a bunch of mechanics and a philosophy that rocked the indie-RPG scene. It is designed to roleplay a conflict-ridden post-apocalyptic society. The way said conflicts develop is done THIS well - the idea is that the game master sets up 2-4 threats, each with a doomsday clock that advances as a result of player failure to control the situation or the passage of time. As the clock advances, escalating consequences occur which are designed by the GM in advance, such that the game begins with a few manageable threats and ends in a snowball of rape and fire. There is no traditional party structure - instead each character is a member of said community doing their own thing and there are no rules that prevent players from allying with one another or turning on each other.
As I wrote above, there is also no segregation between combat and non-combat actions - whether you are trying to seduce someone or shoot them, you always roll 2d6+relevant stat and look at the result: 6- is always a failure, 7-9 is always a success with some unwanted consequence, and a 10+ is always a success. A critical part of this is the "fail forward" system, meaning that whatever the result, it must be consequential - where in D&D failing a perception check to examine some tracks may mean one simply fails to notice anything of note, in ApocWorld it could lead to the PC that failed a roll being ambushed then and there (this also means that you generally only roll for consequential shit and - I've had sessions full of tense intrigue where no one ever rolled a die and other sessions where every roll snowballed into another through the weight of consequence.) Instead of turns the GM allows the players to act in a sequence that makes sense according to the situation at hand, such that a frontline fighter may be given an opportunity, and when they inevitably get their face blown off the doctor PC may ask the GM if they would have time to run into the battlefield to drag their body back, etc. In practice, I found that combat is much harder to run well than in D&D due to a lack of structure, but once everyone is on the same page it is a flowing and fast paced experience that takes no prisoners that I personally find much more engaging than turn-based D20 crunch. Maybe I'm just a faggot.
This game is also setting-agnostic for the most part, so you can use the same rules for Mad Max or STALKER or Euromaidan or x postapoc settings with little to no modification. The book itself is an excellent read and is some of the best teaching tools for a GM you can find, written in a very accessible, informal tone and with plenty of examples to get you into the mindset of the game.
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Perhaps better-known than its direct inspiration, Dungeon World by Sage LaTorra and Adam Koebel is a successor game of sorts, seeking to bring the philosophy and mechanics of Apocalypse World into a generic high fantasy ala D&D http://www.dungeon-world.com/
This system has issues but it is the favorite of many for a reason. Its pros it does the D&D party-based adventuring thing with the excellent flow and narrative mechanics of ApocWorld while expanding AW's mechanics to allow for crunchier aspects of D&D like enemies with THICC statblocks, loot with special properties, feat-based character building, etc. Among cons I count poor balance (also true for AW, but unlike DW it was never supposed to be played as a party-based dungeon crawl so balance is not particularly relevant) and the fact that the game's theme, while generic enough that it could fit a variety if genres if after some modification, is insufferably boring heroic high fantasy stuff. Personally I can't really stand ye olde orckz vs elfos fightan fantashey anymore so while I appreciate this system for what it is I wouldn't run it without heavy narrative modification - I posted some house rules to improve the gameplay in this thread if anyone is interested, though. I did run a science-fantasy world crawl heavily inspired by Age of Decadence for like a year using this system, so there is that.
-
Nowadays, though, I mostly hack an even lighter demake of Dungeon World called World of Dungeons into 25-100 page systems tailored to run whatever game I feel like at the time: http://www.onesevendesign.com/dw/world_of_dungeons_1979_bw.pdf
Most recently it was my shitty not-Torment thing, but I am ( very slowly and not-so-surely) working towards turning it into cyberpunk and low fantasy mercenary company systems whenever the inspiration strikes.
Of course, there are dozens if not hundreds of other hacks, modifications, and entire systems that are powered by Apocalypse, from cyberpunk thriller Sprawl to the urban fantasy Urban Shadows to the supernatural teen romance thing Monsterhearts (which was a blast to play as a oneshot joke). If you are interested in any of the above, it should be easy enough to find basic rules and character classes online as most systems in this family publish them for free. Many fan-made hacks, including World of Dungeons, are free in their entirety.
Hope you find this informative and I am thinking of tapping some codexbros the next time I plan on running a campaign.
I exclusively run indie-RPG systems that use 2d6. Specifically, there is an entire family of systems sometimes referred to as "powered by Apocalypse" that I enjoy. These systems are, generally speaking, more narrativistic and less crunchy than D&D, with a tighter focus and fewer rules fewer rules, no segregation between combat and out-of-combat actions. A GM can make gameplay either extremely abstracted and cinematic or more detailed and tactical (I ran a difficult world crawl thing for a year thing using one of these systems so its certainly not a exclusively a narrativistic system) but you generally. Personally, I find that I have a lot of difficulty going back to the "Okay guys, combat is starting, let's roll for initiative" structure and greatly enjoy the more natural flow of 2d6 systems which I find to be much more intuitive than that of D20, though I admit that I have only played a handful of non 2d6 systems so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
To my knowledge it all started with Apocalypse World by Vincent Baker: http://apocalypse-world.com/
This system introduced a bunch of mechanics and a philosophy that rocked the indie-RPG scene. It is designed to roleplay a conflict-ridden post-apocalyptic society. The way said conflicts develop is done THIS well - the idea is that the game master sets up 2-4 threats, each with a doomsday clock that advances as a result of player failure to control the situation or the passage of time. As the clock advances, escalating consequences occur which are designed by the GM in advance, such that the game begins with a few manageable threats and ends in a snowball of rape and fire. There is no traditional party structure - instead each character is a member of said community doing their own thing and there are no rules that prevent players from allying with one another or turning on each other.
As I wrote above, there is also no segregation between combat and non-combat actions - whether you are trying to seduce someone or shoot them, you always roll 2d6+relevant stat and look at the result: 6- is always a failure, 7-9 is always a success with some unwanted consequence, and a 10+ is always a success. A critical part of this is the "fail forward" system, meaning that whatever the result, it must be consequential - where in D&D failing a perception check to examine some tracks may mean one simply fails to notice anything of note, in ApocWorld it could lead to the PC that failed a roll being ambushed then and there (this also means that you generally only roll for consequential shit and - I've had sessions full of tense intrigue where no one ever rolled a die and other sessions where every roll snowballed into another through the weight of consequence.) Instead of turns the GM allows the players to act in a sequence that makes sense according to the situation at hand, such that a frontline fighter may be given an opportunity, and when they inevitably get their face blown off the doctor PC may ask the GM if they would have time to run into the battlefield to drag their body back, etc. In practice, I found that combat is much harder to run well than in D&D due to a lack of structure, but once everyone is on the same page it is a flowing and fast paced experience that takes no prisoners that I personally find much more engaging than turn-based D20 crunch. Maybe I'm just a faggot.
This game is also setting-agnostic for the most part, so you can use the same rules for Mad Max or STALKER or Euromaidan or x postapoc settings with little to no modification. The book itself is an excellent read and is some of the best teaching tools for a GM you can find, written in a very accessible, informal tone and with plenty of examples to get you into the mindset of the game.
-
Perhaps better-known than its direct inspiration, Dungeon World by Sage LaTorra and Adam Koebel is a successor game of sorts, seeking to bring the philosophy and mechanics of Apocalypse World into a generic high fantasy ala D&D http://www.dungeon-world.com/
This system has issues but it is the favorite of many for a reason. Its pros it does the D&D party-based adventuring thing with the excellent flow and narrative mechanics of ApocWorld while expanding AW's mechanics to allow for crunchier aspects of D&D like enemies with THICC statblocks, loot with special properties, feat-based character building, etc. Among cons I count poor balance (also true for AW, but unlike DW it was never supposed to be played as a party-based dungeon crawl so balance is not particularly relevant) and the fact that the game's theme, while generic enough that it could fit a variety if genres if after some modification, is insufferably boring heroic high fantasy stuff. Personally I can't really stand ye olde orckz vs elfos fightan fantashey anymore so while I appreciate this system for what it is I wouldn't run it without heavy narrative modification - I posted some house rules to improve the gameplay in this thread if anyone is interested, though. I did run a science-fantasy world crawl heavily inspired by Age of Decadence for like a year using this system, so there is that.
-
Nowadays, though, I mostly hack an even lighter demake of Dungeon World called World of Dungeons into 25-100 page systems tailored to run whatever game I feel like at the time: http://www.onesevendesign.com/dw/world_of_dungeons_1979_bw.pdf
Most recently it was my shitty not-Torment thing, but I am ( very slowly and not-so-surely) working towards turning it into cyberpunk and low fantasy mercenary company systems whenever the inspiration strikes.
Of course, there are dozens if not hundreds of other hacks, modifications, and entire systems that are powered by Apocalypse, from cyberpunk thriller Sprawl to the urban fantasy Urban Shadows to the supernatural teen romance thing Monsterhearts (which was a blast to play as a oneshot joke). If you are interested in any of the above, it should be easy enough to find basic rules and character classes online as most systems in this family publish them for free. Many fan-made hacks, including World of Dungeons, are free in their entirety.
Hope you find this informative and I am thinking of tapping some codexbros the next time I plan on running a campaign.
catfood
AGAIN
Any of the stuff that I have mentioned.
nikolokolus
Arcane
- Joined
- May 8, 2013
- Messages
- 4,090
I bought and read the PDF ages ago, so my memories are a little hazy, but mostly it seemed like a nicely cleaned up and expanded version of AD&D 1st edition -- lots of new classes, spells, that kind of stuff. That said there was nothing about it that seemed so ground-breaking to make me want to build campaigns around it or replace other games I was into at the time, like Swords & Wizardry Complete or Dungeon Crawl Classics.
catfood
AGAIN
Can a mod split the relevant posts into a new separate OSR thread? Who are the mods around these parts anyway? JarlFrank ? VentilatorOfDoom ?
Modron
Arcane
- Joined
- May 5, 2012
- Messages
- 11,090
I think mods are non-subforum specific these days so really you just need to find the most autistic one to split threads for you.
catfood
AGAIN
^ this post by Max Heap would make a nice first post for the new thread.
- Joined
- May 25, 2006
- Messages
- 8,363
WotC has announced competitive party vs party dungeoncrawling! D&D is becoming a sport!
https://dndsports.tv/news/what-is-dndsports/
https://dndsports.tv/news/what-is-dndsports/
Multi-headed Cow
Arcane
Though I don't really have grounds to bitch since I haven't played tabletop since 3rd edition. Heard some good stuff about 5e (Which was why I was curious enough to read the thread) but I'm not really in the market for it. Though I do wish that old/out of print RPG books weren't so expensive now, it's fucking ridiculous. Used to enjoy buying that shit for pennies on the dollar just to flip through and read for fun but now it's all expensive as hell. I've got some D20 Modern splatbooks I bought for a dollar or two each a few years ago because nobody gave a shit about them and now the fuckers are selling for $50. Getting off topic here. Safe comfortable spaces that encourage versatility and respectful nodding.
nikolokolus
Arcane
- Joined
- May 8, 2013
- Messages
- 4,090
Check RPGNow.com, a lot of companies are offering old books as POD, including tons of old TSR stuff.
Though I don't really have grounds to bitch since I haven't played tabletop since 3rd edition. Heard some good stuff about 5e (Which was why I was curious enough to read the thread) but I'm not really in the market for it. Though I do wish that old/out of print RPG books weren't so expensive now, it's fucking ridiculous. Used to enjoy buying that shit for pennies on the dollar just to flip through and read for fun but now it's all expensive as hell. I've got some D20 Modern splatbooks I bought for a dollar or two each a few years ago because nobody gave a shit about them and now the fuckers are selling for $50. Getting off topic here. Safe comfortable spaces that encourage versatility and respectful nodding.
Multi-headed Cow
Arcane
That's definitely cool, especially for old TSR stuff that's long out of print, but that only really does me good if I was playing it which I'm not. I was just talking in terms of buying them dirt cheap to read for shits and giggles, and being able to drop $20 for POD book is cool but it's also pricey enough that I'm less enthused to snap it up.
It is a great option for a lot of the really popular/cool older books though. Like Planescape books costing a fucking mint but you can pick up POD copies (Assuming you're PDF-averse) for tolerable prices if you're actually going to use them for play.
Sacibengala
Prophet
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2014
- Messages
- 1,154
Can anyone say how good or bad is the mordenkainen's book?
deuxhero
Arcane
So the Ravnica book has some retardedly broken shit in it. All of it for casters of course. One item lets you cast anything on your spell list, even if you don't know it, with an arcana check. Another lets you cast two cantrips a turn, in a system where Warlocks and gishes have cantrips as a major source of damage.
Anyone with a minimum level of charop skill can look at these and instantly see "retardedly broken" and "likely retardedly broken, I'll run the numbers"
Anyone with a minimum level of charop skill can look at these and instantly see "retardedly broken" and "likely retardedly broken, I'll run the numbers"
Sacibengala
Prophet
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2014
- Messages
- 1,154
This book sounded like bullcrap since the beginning. Now I am curious about the megadungeon one. Sound like it have some oldschool mentality behind it. If anyone get hands on it, please share thoughts.
Sacibengala
Prophet
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2014
- Messages
- 1,154
I bought it. the lore is sterile as f*. At least for me, this serves as conduit to produce something interesting by my own. When the shit is good, I feel bad to change, not in here. There is some interesting aditions to subraces, and more monsters are always good, but the missing stat blocks for the archddevils is absurd. For mosnters, go for the creature codex and tome of beasts from kobold press. And for player choices, go for midgard heroes handbook, again by kobold press. If you have both, get this, but it is subpar with other books by wizards, like Volos and Xanathar's
- Joined
- May 25, 2006
- Messages
- 8,363
Are these items available for players to buy, or are they standard magic items? A lot of magic items in 5e are very powerful buy design, but it's up to the DM if he'll let the players have a chance to find them.
deuxhero
Arcane
Getting any magic item in 5E is something the GM has to do, even though all the math and adventures are balanced around you getting one at certain points (so like WBL, but more opaque), yes. The problem is all 1: the retardedly broken shit is all for casters 2:It's written in a way it's clear the devs had no idea it was so powerful (The two cantrips ability is stuck on the Bracers of Illusion as an extra ability just because.), as though they didn't understand basic game design concepts like action economy or cantrips being a good source of damage. There's even power boosts for casters that are not the GM's purview in the form of extra spells for joining a guild. No such bonus for martial characters.
What's the point of making a simplified system that is (according to the head designer), easy enough for women and non-whites to understand, while complaining the complexity of earlier editions made it hard to balance and not even try to balance anything?
What's the point of making a simplified system that is (according to the head designer), easy enough for women and non-whites to understand, while complaining the complexity of earlier editions made it hard to balance and not even try to balance anything?
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