DA2 has leaked

[Volourn]

" For example, in some games dialogues help you explore the world (not talking about cutscenes here), learn more about characters, gather additional info, discover and take alternative paths and story branches. DA2 does none of that."

Nonsense.

Learn about character - um... DA2 does this in spades...

Gather additional info - DA2 does this in sapdes

Discover alternate paths and story paths & take - DA2 does this..


WTF Are you playing? Seriously, with such bullshit coming out of your typing, we pro DAers don't need your fukkin' lies on our side. You, sir, are worst than haters b/c at least they can plead ignorance you cannot.

 

[kris]

The focus isn't actually on combat. The story pushes the game forward not the combat.

Wow, Volourn just said something that makes perfect sense. In IWD you go to the next dungeon because you want more combat and more interesting dungeons, in DA2 you go into combat to see what happens next in the story.

Two pretty princesses sitting in a tree... Kissing.

If you did that then you would play on the easiest difficult rating (I know volly don't) and skip all the sidequests. The story and the time-jumps is a minor thing in the game. Going by time spend on it.

Focus is not the same thing as "The thing I like in the game". Hey, even the lead producer said that the game was about pressing the button for awesome.

 

[Volourn]

Nonsense. Just ebcause the focus is on the story doesn't mean one can't also like the combat.

Can't we have our cake and eat it too?

Sure beats a PST where the story is awesome but the combat is subpar or games like the GB series where the combat is pretty fun but the non combat aprts are iffy at best.

I'll take both, thanks.

Also, I liek to know how DA1 or BG2 does these things better than DA2 in the way that VD claims they do 'cause I sure as hell don't see it overall.

 

[kris]

1. Learn about character - um... DA2 does this in spades...

2. Gather additional info - DA2 does this in sapdes

3. Discover alternate paths and story paths & take - DA2 does this..

1. Yes. But less in DAO. conversations with companions is quite limited and those are pretty much the only people you learn about.

2. Yeah. Is in plenty of conversations connected to quests that gives an insight to the world.

3. Very seldom if at all. Story path in particular, main story is along the same path.

 

[Volourn]

"Story path in particular, main story is along the same path"

Ala DA1 and BG2 right right right? So, please expalin to me what VD is babl;in' about how DA2 is more like IWD than DA? It is illogical to say the least.

At least DA2 doesn't blow its story wad in the first 10 minutes like DA1or BG2 does. LMAO

 

[Sceptic]

What did you read from me last week? That games should be judged by what they are (i.e. an action RPG) and compared to games of the same sub-genre (i.e. other action RPGs)?

So IWD is now an action-RPG?

Let's see... Both games are focused on combat, the story and character interaction are only the background for all the killing.

Cool. So DA2 should not be compared to DAO because they are completely different games, but Half-Life is fair game.

I like the way you think.

 

[taplonaplo]

The problem with nightmare difficulty is that the game was clearly not designed the way to make it work. For the record, i played most of it in hard.

In the earlier parts fights involving enemy rogues are plain unfair, as you simply can't do anything against them. The only way to stop them would be using AoE which is mostly a no go due to friendly fire, and on top of it you probably don't even know whom they are targeting.

Two Handed weapons being AoE by default is fun on paper, but it's nerve wreckin when the idiot rogue gets chopped by your own warrior (i played cloud's quest on nightmare, it was more than enuff time to make me wish to kill that son of a bitch. Boy was i happy when i found out you could tell him to gtfo). That plus half the abilities being AoE also results in either you makin vegetables out of your companions and doing everything yourself - which is just tedious with the camera - or pick lame abilities in hopes the party AI won't be able to kill you with them.

On the other hand there clearly is progress. By the end of the game i technically never had to reload as my party mowed thru everything save a handful of encounters without any trouble. It might have to do something with rogues actually not sucking ass and killing shit faster than their reinforcements materializing from thin air, but once i had enough ability points it became somewhat fun, and abilities actually felt useful. It was also interesting that in the beginning it's waiting for energy to use abilites, while in the end it's waiting for cooldowns as energy becomes a non issue.

tl;dr the game starts with them one shotting your guys, and ends up you with you one shotting their guys.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What did you read from me last week? That games should be judged by what they are (i.e. an action RPG) and compared to games of the same sub-genre (i.e. other action RPGs)?

So IWD is now an action-RPG?

Sorry, I misspoke. It's a complex game with intriguing characters, wide open world, branching plot and multiple quest solutions.

Let's see... Both games are focused on combat, the story and character interaction are only the background for all the killing.

Cool. So DA2 should not be compared to DAO because they are completely different games, but Half-Life is fair game.

I like the way you think.

Yeah, let's pretend that the context (weren't we talking about RPGs?) wasn't clear and any game focused on combat will do.

Tell you what, Sceptic. Since you're dying to compare DA2 to DA, I'm giving you my permission to do so. Go nuts.

 

[Elwro]

Another example: Risen and Gothics. It's not about exploring... it's about getting your ass fucked by a pack of flying penises, because you suck at fighting.

Arschschmerzen erkannt. The fighting systems were not very easy to master, but exploration and finding your own way to remote areas in a big world with few (or, in case of Risen, no) loading screens were definitely the focus of the game.

 

[Direwolf]

DA2 reminded me a bit of Fahrenheit/Heavy Rain.
It is an interactive movie and not a game, the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as such.

 

[Radisshu]

What did you read from me last week? That games should be judged by what they are (i.e. an action RPG) and compared to games of the same sub-genre (i.e. other action RPGs)?

So IWD is now an action-RPG?

Sorry, I misspoke. It's a complex game with intriguing characters, wide open world, branching plot and multiple quest solutions.

Don't be a complete retard, VD. If IWD is an action RPG Warcraft II is a beat 'em up. There are more variables than just "is it (semi) real time?"

 

[Monocause]

I'm reserving any judgment for now as I've just got to Kirkwall, but:

1.Varric seems to be the only likeable character so far.

2. Music is bland.

3. Nightmare difficulty is fucking impossible and horribly unbalanced. Switched back to hard after a couple of reloads during the ogre battle in the demo part.
-all two-handed attacks count as AoE, meaning you have to keep your two-hander away from the party or take pains to position party members in that clusterfuck. Which isn't possible because party members move all the time to fe. pursue knocked down enemies. If you get your two-hander away from the party so that he can't do any TK, he WILL get surrounded.
- positioning is impossible since enemies magically spawn behind your characters all the time, hence making tactical use of AoE spells and abilities also practically impossible. Especially when you couple it with the fact that mouse snaps to targets and there's no faux-iso view.
- your characters drop as flies as soon as they get surrounded. Which they get a lot and there's not much you can do about it without any sort of ZOC mechanic and unfair spawning.

I suspect they'll be toning down nightmare significantly in the patch or introduce some improvements that make "tactical" play at least remotely possible.

To all those who claim to have played and completed the game on nightmare: how the fuck did you do it? Seriously. Even in the beginning I got raped back and forth, and it was not due to lack of skill. In one encounter in the demo area the bolters took down Bethany before she had a chance to cast a single spell. After a reload I sent melee types forward but still lost because Bethany got swarmed by darkspawn magically spawning from behind. When I finally got past that point the ogre proved to be completely unbeatable. The only thing I could figure out was using kiting and abusing the AI but there's not much sense in playing the whole game that way.

FYI I finished DA:O on nightmare without much trouble. At least it was fair and some encounters were genuinely challenging. In DA2 it's the masochist's choice.

 

[Sceptic]

Sorry, I misspoke. It's a complex game with intriguing characters, wide open world, branching plot and multiple quest solutions.

So, it's an action-RPG purely because of its focus on combat instead of characters, open world and plot, completely disregarding whether combat itself is tactical or actiony or whatnot? Just being focused on combat is enough? Is KOTC an action-RPG now?

Yeah, let's pretend that the context (weren't we talking about RPGs?

Dunno anymore, it's kinda hard to tell with you sometimes.

Since you're dying to compare DA2 to DA, I'm giving you my permission to do so.

No thanks, I'd have to play DA2 first.

Although, if you & others who have said it's a "fun action game" get to the end of the game and are still saying so, I'd consider it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What did you read from me last week? That games should be judged by what they are (i.e. an action RPG) and compared to games of the same sub-genre (i.e. other action RPGs)?

So IWD is now an action-RPG?

Sorry, I misspoke. It's a complex game with intriguing characters, wide open world, branching plot and multiple quest solutions.

Don't be a complete retard, VD. If IWD is an action RPG Warcraft II is a beat 'em up. There are more variables than just "is it (semi) real time?"

I understand that it's the Codex and "don't be a complete retard" is a valid argument here, but don't you think that the discussion would go a lot smoother if you'd actually explain your position (for example, how would you define IWD?)?. I promise I won't take it as a sign of weakness.

Don't like the term "action RPG"? Ok. Does dungeon crawler sound better? Or how about slam dunk? From what I hear slam dunk is a quick, combat-oriented follow up to a much bigger and more complex game. Do you see any difference between BG2 and IWD2, by any chance? If you do, would you care to explain it?

And no, it has nothing to do with real time. I played Arcanum in RT since TB was completely fucked, yet you don't see me claiming that it was an action RPG. Nor would I claim that about Daggerfall, Darklands, Gothic, KOTOR, MotB, and a score of other RT games. I wonder why.

 

[chzr]

I'm reserving any judgment for now as I've just got to Kirkwall, but:

1.Varric seems to be the only likeable character so far.

2. Music is bland.

3. Nightmare difficulty is fucking impossible and horribly unbalanced. Switched back to hard after a couple of reloads during the ogre battle in the demo part.
-all two-handed attacks count as AoE, meaning you have to keep your two-hander away from the party or take pains to position party members in that clusterfuck. Which isn't possible because party members move all the time to fe. pursue knocked down enemies. If you get your two-hander away from the party so that he can't do any TK, he WILL get surrounded.
- positioning is impossible since enemies magically spawn behind your characters all the time, hence making tactical use of AoE spells and abilities also practically impossible. Especially when you couple it with the fact that mouse snaps to targets and there's no faux-iso view.
- your characters drop as flies as soon as they get surrounded. Which they get a lot and there's not much you can do about it without any sort of ZOC mechanic and unfair spawning.

I suspect they'll be toning down nightmare significantly in the patch or introduce some improvements that make "tactical" play at least remotely possible.

To all those who claim to have played and completed the game on nightmare: how the fuck did you do it? Seriously. Even in the beginning I got raped back and forth, and it was not due to lack of skill. In one encounter in the demo area the bolters took down Bethany before she had a chance to cast a single spell. After a reload I sent melee types forward but still lost because Bethany got swarmed by darkspawn magically spawning from behind. When I finally got past that point the ogre proved to be completely unbeatable. The only thing I could figure out was using kiting and abusing the AI but there's not much sense in playing the whole game that way.

FYI I finished DA:O on nightmare without much trouble. At least it was fair and some encounters were genuinely challenging. In DA2 it's the masochist's choice.

well it's 'playable' but it's indeed "nightmare" mostly thanks to retarded party ai and shitty encounter design (as you mentioned, not balanced for nightmare) and teleporting assassins that will take half of your tank hps in one skill. i haven't really played it much and i'm still in act 1 but it seems that the game gets easier as you get better equip, making the beginning of the game hardest part.

1) mages should be used as support since attack spells are weak against boosted mobs and aoe spells are useless.
2) tanks are vital because knockbacks (aveline is a must, sword&shield hawke warrior seems to be better than 2h thanks to ff), and because they actually survive a lot unlike other classes
3) archers are finally really good damage dealers, and can win any non-ranged fight by kiting + they have dagger for melee

protip: download bioware "break normal, balance nightmare " DLCs with armor and weapons for everyone which makes the beginning a lot less frustrating (or at least you don't have to reload 15 times every filler encounter).

 

[Radisshu]

What did you read from me last week? That games should be judged by what they are (i.e. an action RPG) and compared to games of the same sub-genre (i.e. other action RPGs)?

So IWD is now an action-RPG?

Sorry, I misspoke. It's a complex game with intriguing characters, wide open world, branching plot and multiple quest solutions.

Don't be a complete retard, VD. If IWD is an action RPG Warcraft II is a beat 'em up. There are more variables than just "is it (semi) real time?"

I understand that it's the Codex and "don't be a complete retard" is a valid argument here, but don't you think that the discussion would go a lot smoother if you'd actually explain your position (for example, how would you define IWD?)?. I promise I won't take it as a sign of weakness.

Don't like the term "action RPG"? Ok. Does dungeon crawler sound better? Or how about slam dunk? From what I hear slam dunk is a quick, combat-oriented follow up to a much bigger and more complex game. Do you see any difference between BG2 and IWD2, by any chance? If you do, would you care to explain it?

And no, it has nothing to do with real time. I played Arcanum in RT since TB was completely fucked, yet you don't see me claiming that it was an action RPG. Nor would I claim that about Daggerfall, Darklands, Gothic, KOTOR, MotB, and a score of other RT games. I wonder why.

I guess our definitions of the term "action RPG" are different, then. I wouldn't lump it together with terms like "dungeon crawler", though the terms definitely can coexist. When I, and I think this is the general consensus, talk about an "action RPG" we're essentially talking about a game that plays like some kind of action game (a beat 'em up, an FPS, etc), but with RPG mechanics, like stats. Not a game that plays like an RTS.

Examples of action RPGs would be the Witcher and Vampire: Bloodlines.

To clarify, my definition of the term has to do with how the game plays rather than what the game contains (I'd say a game with combat like the Witcher was an action rpg even if fights were sparce, and I'd say a game with combat like IWD wouldn't be, even if it was a complete hack and slash-fest).

 

[Havoc]

One more thing... Templar Hunters... guys in plate armor and are Rouges. What. The. Fuck?

 

[Volourn]

"Sorry, I misspoke. It's a complex game with intriguing characters, wide open world, branching plot and multiple quest solutions."

Your defintion of action rpg is just weird.

IWD is a full fledge rpg. Just like the GB games. Radisshu is right you are wrong.



P.S. People whining about nightmare being 'impossible' are stupid and missing the point. It's not supposed to be fair. It's called nightmare for a reason. FFS

Only psychopaths would want to play it that way. Hard is hard enough, imo. Did youa ctually read the difficulty descriptions in the damn manual or what?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I guess our definitions of the term "action RPG" are different, then. I wouldn't lump it together with terms like "dungeon crawler", though the terms definitely can coexist. When I, and I think this is the general consensus, talk about an "action RPG" we're essentially talking about a game that plays like some kind of action game (a beat 'em up, an FPS, etc), but with RPG mechanics, like stats. Not a game that plays like an RTS.

So what is Icewind Dale 2 then and how does it compare to BG2 (a game built on the same engine/assets 2 years earlier) and Fallout (a game released 5 years earlier by the same studio)?

Examples of action RPGs would be the Witcher and Vampire: Bloodlines.

Are you saying (according to your own definition) that Bloodlines is nothing but a shooter with stats? Or do we have different definitions of "plays like" as well?

To clarify, my definition of the term has to do with how the game plays rather than what the game contains (I'd say a game with combat like the Witcher was an action rpg even if fights were sparce, and I'd say a game with combat like IWD wouldn't be, even if it was a complete hack and slash-fest).

I disagree. Unlike IWD and DA2, Witcher and especially Bloodlines offer more than JUST combat between cutscenes/briefings.

 

[Jools]

Also, I was just wondering something. In DAO Sten (a Qunari) "loses" his sword, which is the worst possible thing a Qunari could do, and is stuck in Ferelden

Spoiler

In DA2, the whole Qunari faction "loses" their most prized and sacred relic. WTF is wrong with these horned people and losing items? ADHD or something?

 

[Radisshu]

I guess our definitions of the term "action RPG" are different, then. I wouldn't lump it together with terms like "dungeon crawler", though the terms definitely can coexist. When I, and I think this is the general consensus, talk about an "action RPG" we're essentially talking about a game that plays like some kind of action game (a beat 'em up, an FPS, etc), but with RPG mechanics, like stats. Not a game that plays like an RTS.

So what is Icewind Dale 2 then and how does it compare to BG2 (a game built on the same engine/assets 2 years earlier) and Fallout (a game released 5 years earlier by the same studio)?

It's a dungeon crawler. The term 'dungeon crawler' is quite nice in how it has no bearing on the type of system the game employs, it could be a Wizardry clone, or it could be Diablo 2.

Examples of action RPGs would be the Witcher and Vampire: Bloodlines.

Are you saying (according to your own definition) that Bloodlines is nothing but a shooter with stats? Or do we have different definitions of "plays like" as well?

Bloodlines is a shooter with stats, but quite obviously more than that since it employs other mechanics that most FPS games do not, especially considering how it plays like a third-person action game when you're using melee weapons, which shooters do not. So no, it's not "nothing but a shooter with stats", it's an action RPG.

To clarify, my definition of the term has to do with how the game plays rather than what the game contains (I'd say a game with combat like the Witcher was an action rpg even if fights were sparce, and I'd say a game with combat like IWD wouldn't be, even if it was a complete hack and slash-fest).

I disagree. Unlike IWD and DA2, Witcher and especially Bloodlines offer more than JUST combat between cutscenes/briefings.

Yeah, but if you read what I wrote carefully, you'll see our definitions of the term differ. Like I said, my definition has nothing to do with quest design or amount of dialouge, or nonlinearity, it's got to do with how combat mechanics work in the game, and how player input during combat is handled.

 

[kris]

Examples of action RPGs would be the Witcher and Vampire: Bloodlines.

Are you saying (according to your own definition) that Bloodlines is nothing but a shooter with stats? Or do we have different definitions of "plays like" as well?

The Radish sees a action game by the thin line of controlling your character in combat. He put Witcher and Bloodlines on that account since you control one character and have to press a button to attack.

 

[Radisshu]

Examples of action RPGs would be the Witcher and Vampire: Bloodlines.

Are you saying (according to your own definition) that Bloodlines is nothing but a shooter with stats? Or do we have different definitions of "plays like" as well?

The Radish sees a action game by the thin line of controlling your character in combat. He put Witcher and Bloodlines on that account since you control one character and have to press a button to attack.

Exactly. An ARPG is, according to my definition, an RPG that plays like an action game in certain situations (combat, jumping on boxes to reach something, etc).

 

[kris]

1.Varric seems to be the only likeable character so far.

Don't think you will find anyone else to like much. Varric is cool, way better than his appearance.

Bethany. Was okay though.

 

[Jools]

1.Varric seems to be the only likeable character so far.

Don't think you will find anyone else to like much. Varric is cool, way better than his appearance.

Bethany. Was okay though.

I kinda concur. Actually even uncle Gamlen seems to be slightly more "human" than the rest, which are just pale-coloured drones. Oh, and they really went to far with banter... I mean, they never STFU. So annoying, and so mood-killing on occasions, eg super-dramatic event just happened in a cave involving Merril, and just outside she merrily pulls off some random sort-of humourous banter along the lines of "oh, i wonder why my kin places graveyards in such unconvenient places" in a lighthearted/funny tone. One minute later the PC talks to her and she is shattered because of the events just gone by... Out of the convo/cutscene, she does another of her naive/funny remarks about squirrels or mudcrabs. Meh.