Dark Sun announced as new D&D4e setting for 2010!!

[aleph]

4e is to be commended for at least doing away with the stupid quasi-Vancian magic system and going for something more like the magic depicted in 99% of books/comics/movies/etc.

What the fuck is it with you rapid vancian magic haters? Is it to so complicate to have to require more from magic users than cast fireball, cast fireball, cast fireball, drink mana potion, cast fireball, cast fireball, cast fireball, drink mana potion and so on? Is a little bit planning beforehand really that hard for you?

 

[LeStryfe79]

Actually everyone in 4E uses Vancian magic. They have been renamed "DAILIES". Also, I want to reiterate that most problems in 3/3.5E exist after lv 10, while most problems in 4E permeate through the entire game. The reason why 4th pisses me off is that it SHOULD have been good. Anyone who has played SW:SE knows this. WotC was on to some good things but got too greedy trying to reinvent the wheel.

Is 4E much easier to run than 3/3.5 ? Yes, but that's irrelevant when it's a hell of a lot less fun. 4E plays to a slow methodical rhythm, where everyone does one thing every round, rolls a 20, rinses and repeats. Complete failure in a given round occurs far more often for each player and it's very easy for someone to go 20 minutes or more without having accomplished a damn thing. Somehow, after a while, using martial powers gets more monotonous than simply "attacking" did in older versions.

Roleplayers come in many shapes and sizes. I know lots of folks who like playing a no nonsense simple fighter, or an overly complex nerdy wizard. These options are gone now. Everything in 4E feels exactly the same. It's almost like WotC claims to know whats best for everyone. I can't tell you how grating it is when James Wyatt is telling me to move on quickly to the next encounter, since that's where the fun is.

...No James, that's where the merchandise is.

 

[thesheeep]

Thank god I used to play Shadowrun and RoA/DSA.
Those systems had their faults, no doubt.
But I never had the feeling that something was completely fucked up (well, except lances perhaps, hehe), nor had the other players. That seems to be different with D&D.

 

[Zomg]

You best be joking about Shadowrun, that system was terrible

 

[thesheeep]

Absolutely not.
IMHO, it's one of the best.

It only had classes where it made sense, everything else was skill based. Lots of skills that actually have a use. Lore simply the best I ever saw (then again, I like Sci-Fi-Fantasy combinations most).
Very easy to learn combat rules (with MANY additions, but you didn't have to use them all) and general a good dice systems. And I mean both the old ones with increasing and decreasing target numbers and the new one with increasing and decreasing dice numbers.

And, probably most important of all, the very best depiction of magic/casting evar.
If you have to sustain a spell, you can do that, np, but it will make all other spells after that harder to cast, since sustaining is already exhausting. When casting a spell, there are two throws. One deals with the spell effect itself and the second one will tell how well you bear the "backlash" of casting the spell.
It may very well be that you cast that Fireball, slaughtering your foes, but are knocked unconscious by the backlash.

I've heard that the hacking/matrix depiction is/was screwed, but we never had a hacker, so I don't know...

 

[LeStryfe79]

I played a bunch of 2E Shadowrun back in the day, and thought the system was atrocious. I can remember tossing over a hundred dice to resolve just a few seconds worth of combat.That said, the setting was really cool and we still had a lot of fun. I think it was partly because characters started out fairly powerful which can be great for short campaigns.

 

[Elwro]

My group never managed to conduct combat completely by the rules when the astral space was involved in Shadowrun 2.0 (never played the later versions). Still, the setting was pretty fun and the mood was great.

 

[SkeleTony]

4e is to be commended for at least doing away with the stupid quasi-Vancian magic system and going for something more like the magic depicted in 99% of books/comics/movies/etc.

What the fuck is it with you rapid vancian magic haters? Is it to so complicate to have to require more from magic users than cast fireball, cast fireball, cast fireball, drink mana potion, cast fireball, cast fireball, cast fireball, drink mana potion and so on? Is a little bit planning beforehand really that hard for you?

No idea what you are talking about with the above straw man. I have NO problem with "complicated". My issue is with STUPID systems. The "Fire and forget" magic system of old D&D/AD&D is to fantasy would a psionic system based on how stinky one's farts are would be to a science fiction setting.

It just does not work well.

It is like going to a poetry recital and having to memorize a specific number of Frost's "The Road Not Taken" or Henley's "Invictus" and forgetting them as you recite them. It is a lazy, poorly thought out design that even the designers working for TSR hated but felt forced to not change because of threats from the "Any change is bad!" crowd of letter writers who largely had no familiarity with the genre of heroic fantasy beyond AD&D.

 

[BLOBERT]

FUCKING FAG FANBOYS GO BACK TO GAMESPOT THIS GAME IS SHIT

 

[SkeleTony]

Actually everyone in 4E uses Vancian magic. They have been renamed "DAILIES".

False. "Dailies" do not employ a system where you must memorize the specific number of powers you are going to use in a day and then forget them as you use them. According to the WoTC designers they did away with the Vancian system and replaced it with a spell point system(which the original designers intended to do with AD&D 2nd edition way back in the 80s).

Also, I want to reiterate that most problems in 3/3.5E exist after lv 10, while most problems in 4E permeate through the entire game. The reason why 4th pisses me off is that it SHOULD have been good. Anyone who has played SW:SE knows this. WotC was on to some good things but got too greedy trying to reinvent the wheel.

I don't disagree with this. I don't play tabletop RPGs(not since the 80s) and it seems like for all teh good of doing away with the stupid Vancian system they made up for it by dumbing down other aspects.

For example, contrary to what JIM said, there is NEVER any good reason to consolidate skills like "climbing", jumping, stealth, etc. into catch-all skills like "Athletics". And there is never a good reason to make races all quantitatively the same.

 

[Perfect Fool]

I used to play Shadowrun 2E, years ago. The setting was cool, but the rules were bloody awful.

As far as other PnP games go, Obsidian: The Age of Judgement was good. Everything moved incredibly swiftly and it had a Shadowrun meets Doom mixed with Judge Dredd setting which was really good fun. DMed quite a few sessions with my group and we all liked it, which is unusual for us. I'd love to see a CRPG based on it, I think it would work extremely well.

Kult was also entertaining and the atmosphere was excellent. My friend who ran it was a complete bastard of a GM who enjoyed fucking over everyone as horribly as possible but that's probably a big part of what made the game work so well. The setting is alternative reality modern day, the lore based on a mixture of the Kabbalistic Sephirot, Gnostic Christianity and the occult in general, as far as I can remember it.

One of the reasons that I'm so annoyed about this 4e version of Darksun is that my fondest PnP memories are still of playing in the original setting with a DM who knew the world inside out. We had a campaign set in and around Nibiney which lasted for about two years and my character was the only surviving member of the starting party of six. I love the setting and can only imagine how badly they'll translate it into 4e for tabletop games, though a CRPG could work I suppose, 4e rules may actually be better suited to playing a complete party rather than a single character.

 

[J1M]

Actually everyone in 4E uses Vancian magic. They have been renamed "DAILIES".

False. "Dailies" do not employ a system where you must memorize the specific number of powers you are going to use in a day and then forget them as you use them. According to the WoTC designers they did away with the Vancian system and replaced it with a spell point system(which the original designers intended to do with AD&D 2nd edition way back in the 80s).

Replaced with spell points? Someone better tell that to the publisher and reprint all of the 4e books then! The only D&D products that use spell points that I know of are psionics and DDO, both of which are 3.5 based. You really appear to have no idea what you are talking about.

The majority of classes in 4e pick a single daily and utility power and this can be swapped out/upgraded during certain level ups. They have a single special ability of their choosing that can be used once a day that is extra powerful. They also have the same selection for a power that can be used once per encounter. Using either of these on a turn is fun, and changes the course of a battle.

Wizards are different, they get to learn double the number of daily/encounter spells as other classes and at the start of each day pick which ones to prepare for that day. This gives them double the versatility of other classes. They still have at-will abilities like every other class for mundane spells like magic missile, but they use a Vancian system for encounter and daily powers.

Perhaps you dislike this because the number to choose from is smaller? (Until more books come out) Perhaps you didn't see that all of the out of combat spells are now called rituals and in the back of the book where the spell list used to be? Regardless, they sure as fuck don't have spell points.

For example, contrary to what JIM said, there is NEVER any good reason to consolidate skills like "climbing", jumping, stealth, etc. into catch-all skills like "Athletics". And there is never a good reason to make races all quantitatively the same.

Sorry, but you are wrong. In 3.5 the knowledge skill is absolutely retarded.
There are Knowledge: Religion, Knowledge: Arcana, etc for over 10 different categories just on the standard player sheets and additional Knowledge checks for special locations such as certain cities, etc.

Consolidating them into broad categories such as Religion, Nature, Dungeoneering, and Arcana is a good thing. It also doesn't make sense to detach a Knowledege: Nature skill from Tracking or whatever because the characters we are talking about are adventurers. Adventurers who know about the wilderness are going to know how to apply that knowledge to practical situations.

Furthermore, it makes no sense that your fighter gets 2 skill points a level and so this male fantasy character in peak physical condition cannot manage to be good at climbing, riding a horse, jumping, and running because that is 4 skills and you only have 2 skill points. Meanwhile, a wizard getting 8 skill points a level could have twice the skill level (even at 50% buy penalty) as the fighter because his primary stat is intellect.

There are actual real people who do not devote their lives to adventuring that are good at riding a horse, climbing a rope, AND jumping (omg). 3.5 knows how stupid this is and attempts to correct it with a bunch of arbitrary skill synergies. An admission of the problem, but not a proper solution because it results in situations like this:

"Oh I'm sorry you fail your skill check to know where the bazaar is in this city, because you rolled a 7 and you don't have any points in Knowledge: Gehenna: Trias City. Your +20 ranks in Knowledge: Planes only gives you a +2 synergy bonus."

 

[Emotional Vampire]

For example, contrary to what JIM said, there is NEVER any good reason to consolidate skills like "climbing", jumping, stealth, etc. into catch-all skills like "Athletics".

You have to fucking draw a line somewhere, dude. You can't make a skill for everything. FATAL tried to map out all the basic parameters of the human body and it ended up being a fucking unplayable mess.

You have to strike a balance.

 

[LeStryfe79]

My point is that most of the issues that existed with Vancian magic still exist in 4E. The system still makes no sense, and characters are encouraged to rest and refill their resources after every encounter(healing surges, action pt, and dailies). The only thing WotC did was create new issues by making characters less interesting and making a game unrecognizable to old school d&d players. To be honest, I really liked Thac0 back in the day too, but I wasn't sorry to see it go when 3E came out. I know change is good when its done well, I just sometimes wonder why WotC employees spent 2 years in R & D fucking each other in the ass instead of playtesting this son of a bitch.

 

[Andhaira]

D&D4e is the best D&D yet. That may not be saying much considering every iteration of D&D was deeply flawed, but its a good game.

 

[thesheeep]

The system still makes no sense, and characters are encouraged to rest and refill their resources after every encounter(healing surges, action pt, and dailies).

Yup. That is what bugged me most about the system. Good as it is (IMHO), this is just plain stupid.
You cast that spell and then... you have to rest 8 hours to do it again? wtf? Do you suddenly forget how to cast it until you sleep? Does the page vanish from your spellbook until you sleep? What is this nonsense?
It is probably the worst way to say "spellcasting is exhausting".

I'm speaking of D&D3 here, but since many claim that it hasn't changed that much in 4E, the point seems to remain valid.

 

[aleph]

4e is to be commended for at least doing away with the stupid quasi-Vancian magic system and going for something more like the magic depicted in 99% of books/comics/movies/etc.

What the fuck is it with you rapid vancian magic haters? Is it to so complicate to have to require more from magic users than cast fireball, cast fireball, cast fireball, drink mana potion, cast fireball, cast fireball, cast fireball, drink mana potion and so on? Is a little bit planning beforehand really that hard for you?

No idea what you are talking about with the above straw man. I have NO problem with "complicated". My issue is with STUPID systems. The "Fire and forget" magic system of old D&D/AD&D is to fantasy would a psionic system based on how stinky one's farts are would be to a science fiction setting.

It just does not work well.

It is like going to a poetry recital and having to memorize a specific number of Frost's "The Road Not Taken" or Henley's "Invictus" and forgetting them as you recite them. It is a lazy, poorly thought out design that even the designers working for TSR hated but felt forced to not change because of threats from the "Any change is bad!" crowd of letter writers who largely had no familiarity with the genre of heroic fantasy beyond AD&D.

Reading this statement makes it very clear how much the designers of early DnD could have avoided by writing "preparing spells" instead of "memorizing spells". And by the way, take one of the Dying Earth books (one of the main influences on DnD) by Jack Vance and actually read it. Pay close attention to how magic is portrait, especially in Cudgel's Saga and Eyes of the Overworld. the concept of magic there is exactly the same as in old DnD. So saying the magic system has no roots in Fantasy literature is total BS.
And from a gameplay view point, the magic systems works very well. It gives much more tactical depth than a spell point based system.

 

[Xi]

Shadowrun 2.0 was great fun. I still have the book somewhere, but haven't played it in a long time. I'd take Shadowrun over D&D any day.

 

[J1M]

My point is that most of the issues that existed with Vancian magic still exist in 4E. The system still makes no sense, and characters are encouraged to rest and refill their resources after every encounter(healing surges, action pt, and dailies). The only thing WotC did was create new issues by making characters less interesting and making a game unrecognizable to old school d&d players. To be honest, I really liked Thac0 back in the day too, but I wasn't sorry to see it go when 3E came out. I know change is good when its done well, I just sometimes wonder why WotC employees spent 2 years in R & D fucking each other in the ass instead of playtesting this son of a bitch.

The system still makes no sense, and characters are encouraged to rest and refill their resources after every encounter(healing surges, action pt, and dailies).

Yup. That is what bugged me most about the system. Good as it is (IMHO), this is just plain stupid.
You cast that spell and then... you have to rest 8 hours to do it again? wtf? Do you suddenly forget how to cast it until you sleep? Does the page vanish from your spellbook until you sleep? What is this nonsense?
It is probably the worst way to say "spellcasting is exhausting".

I'm speaking of D&D3 here, but since many claim that it hasn't changed that much in 4E, the point seems to remain valid.

If your DM allows you to rest 8 hours after each encounter, then you have a shitty DM.

You exert yourself to get extra-ordinary results. This tires you out and you are reduced to a smaller subset of abilities until you rest up. How is this hard to understand?

Real life parallel: I bet you could run a mile in real life if you had to. I highly doubt you could repeat this every ten minutes for 16 hours. But no matter how many miles you run in a day, I bet you would always be capable of posting dumb shit on this message board.

 

[Imbecile]

Even if it doesnt make any sense, it makes for good gameplay imo. Makes you think about which one of your various abilities you use, and when.

 

[aleph]

You exert yourself to get extra-ordinary results. This tires you out and you are reduced to a smaller subset of abilities until you rest up. How is this hard to understand?

Real life parallel: I bet you could run a mile in real life if you had to. I highly doubt you could repeat this every ten minutes for 16 hours. But no matter how many miles you run in a day, I bet you would always be capable of posting dumb shit on this message board.

qft

 

[thesheeep]

If your DM allows you to rest 8 hours after each encounter, then you have a shitty DM.

True, I guess :D

You exert yourself to get extra-ordinary results. This tires you out and you are reduced to a smaller subset of abilities until you rest up. How is this hard to understand?

This would make sense, if it was how it works. But it doesn't work like that in D&D or any other system I know.
After casting all those lvl 7,6,5,4,... spells, you are too exhausted to cast a lvl 1 spell, but still have enough energy left to cast a lvl 8 spell? Makes perfect sense, wonder why I'd ever doubt that.
Seriously, there is no way that could ever make sense. Even if you argue that the character has reserved his energy, then why can't he use this reserved energy to do something else?

The only valid argument I'll allow to exist is that somehow you prepare those spells while resting which lets you cast them after that without exhausting yourself in any real way. But even then, why can't I prepare 26 lvl 2 spells instead of 3 lvl 7, 4 lvl6, etc.?

Real life parallel: I bet you could run a mile in real life if you had to. I highly doubt you could repeat this every ten minutes for 16 hours. But no matter how many miles you run in a day, I bet you would always be capable of posting dumb shit on this message board.

Well, in Shadowrun, I could try that and it would get harder each time I do, until I would only succeed by some critical success.
In D&D, I'd go to sleep the night before and prepare myself for 3 1-mile runs, 2 clever arguments and 1 tubgirl-link.

 

[Imbecile]

This would make sense, if it was how it works. But it doesn't work like that in D&D or any other system I know.
After casting all those lvl 7,6,5,4,... spells, you are too exhausted to cast a lvl 1 spell, but still have enough energy left to cast a lvl 8 spell? Makes perfect sense, wonder why I'd ever doubt that.
Seriously, there is no way that could ever make sense. Even if you argue that the character has reserved his energy, then why can't he use this reserved energy to do something else?
.

Well is does work that way in 4th edition, if I understand you correctly. Your Character has some abilities that he can use daily, some abilities that he can use every encounter, and some abilities that he can just keep on using. So after using the big spells, he has to rely on the everyday stuff he can do with his eyes closed.

 

[thesheeep]

Well is does work that way in 4th edition, if I understand you correctly. Your Character has some abilities that he can use daily, some abilities that he can use every encounter, and some abilities that he can just keep on using. So after using the big spells, he has to rely on the everyday stuff he can do with his eyes closed.

Nice! Not perfect, but an obvious step in the right direction.
About time someone told me that! Who knows what D&D-nerds I would have killed otherwise.

And if that wasn't clear enough, all I said I said about 3E, because that is the one I know.

 

[J1M]

This would make sense, if it was how it works. But it doesn't work like that in D&D or any other system I know.
After casting all those lvl 7,6,5,4,... spells, you are too exhausted to cast a lvl 1 spell, but still have enough energy left to cast a lvl 8 spell? Makes perfect sense, wonder why I'd ever doubt that.
Seriously, there is no way that could ever make sense. Even if you argue that the character has reserved his energy, then why can't he use this reserved energy to do something else?

Wizards must prepare their spells. Whether that means memorize or "line up reagents" doesn't matter. Sorcerers cast as you describe and can use a higher level spell slot to cast a lower level spell.

The only valid argument I'll allow to exist is that somehow you prepare those spells while resting which lets you cast them after that without exhausting yourself in any real way. But even then, why can't I prepare 26 lvl 2 spells instead of 3 lvl 7, 4 lvl6, etc.?

That is called psionics in 3.5.

As I've mentioned previously in this thread, in addition to what Imbecile said about 4e abilities there are out-of-combat spells called rituals that don't require memorization, but do require reagents and have longer casting time. Their level of success is based on a skill check. The cast time prevents them from being abused. Examples of rituals are things like Teleport, Mage Feast, Phantom Steeds, etc. A higher skill check will result in better food, faster/more steeds, etc.