Darkest Dungeon II

[CHEMS]

I think the traits thing was perfect as it was... Also, DD1 you got to mix and match your teams on the go, the relationship stuff will just get in the way, or force you to grind relationships in order to get the thing going

My main gripe with DD2 is that combat seems so god damn slow while in DD it was pleasantly fast paced

 

[Sarathiour]

Leaving aside the whole retardation of gaining buff trough the power of ass buggering, relationship is a terrible mechanic when the gameplay is now centered around single-use disposable team. Relationship forming and breaking over 20 minutes of fighting skeleton is going to end up silly at best, and you're going to give zero fuck because they will be forever gone after a single gaming session.
They can struggle with it all their want, it's just never going to fit their new gameplay loop.

 

[Wunderbar]

Relationship system could've made sense if it was implemented in a DD1-like game, with an actual roster of characters, permanently upgradeable Hamlet, and dungeon raids.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

They watered down the benefits of the system while making the hindrances still pretty sucky.

I have two pairs of heroes at 20 affinity (max) each = no friendship. But I routinely get friendship at 9-12 points. Even then it seems to buff skills I have turned off, not my commonly-used, strongest skills. Oh yay, Hellion got YAWP buffed. Whoopee.

Meanwhile, if affinity dips below 9 you're pretty much guaranteed a bad relationship, and oh look at that, your primary attack is now upsetting the team. They get mad when you win fights effectively, because feelings. Better aDapT!

The best strategy is to not go negative, but min/maxing for positive relations is a waste of time. The downsides are worse than the upsides. Much like how in the original the best strategy was to avoid every single object in a dungeon unless you knew the exact item to use to avoid a bad outcome. RNG never favors the player.

 

[mediocrepoet]

They watered down the benefits of the system while making the hindrances still pretty sucky.

I have two pairs of heroes at 20 affinity (max) each = no friendship. But I routinely get friendship at 9-12 points. Even then it seems to buff skills I have turned off, not my commonly-used, strongest skills. Oh yay, Hellion got YAWP buffed. Whoopee.

Meanwhile, if affinity dips below 9 you're pretty much guaranteed a bad relationship, and oh look at that, your primary attack is now upsetting the team. They get mad when you win fights effectively, because feelings. Better aDapT!

The best strategy is to not go negative, but min/maxing for positive relations is a waste of time. The downsides are worse than the upsides. Much like how in the original the best strategy was to avoid every single object in a dungeon unless you knew the exact item to use to avoid a bad outcome. RNG never favors the player.

Reading this kind of makes me wish Celerity would come back and have another epic meltdown after playing the game for 1337+ hours and then deciding it sucks.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Yeah still nice idea, bad execution no matter how they change it. On paper it's good. 4 guys on travel facing eldritch horror, some find friendship while others bickers. Much like in horror movies you know?

Execution wise it is absolutely terrible because it becomes failure spiral of some sort unless you meta gamed it hard. This is also why combat is fundamentally anti fun in DD2, no matter how good the loot is, it doesn't worth the stress and relationship hit most of the time. The dev even need to force you to go to area boss battle to reach the end chapter boss now because of this.

 

[Sarathiour]

Relationship system could've made sense if it was implemented in a DD1-like game, with an actual roster of characters, permanently upgradeable Hamlet, and dungeon raids.

That would still be a stretch, you would need to simplify considerably the system, or fix the team composition, which would lead to others problems.

4 guys on travel facing eldritch horror, some find friendship while others bickers.

Thing is, the old stress system was already simulating that, trough breakdown or virtue. This new layer on top of it just does not work.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Thing is, the old stress system was already simulating that, trough breakdown or virtue. This new layer on top of it just does not work.

Nah it really is not the same as DD1 you will go with that 1 party for what 30 min? And then they get drunk or be kinky whipping themselves and it's all nice and dandy. Not to mention your roster will be like 20 people by mid game.

It really doesn't evoke the thing that DD2 try to evoke at all.

DD2 and DD1 is fundamentally different game too, one is multi character roguelike where everyone is expendable while DD2 is structured more like "normal RPG" of a party going to a quest which is why the relationship, on paper, was a nice idea. Much like seeing a group of people in some horror - action movie with inner party conflict and drama.

Of course implementation is completely shit and distracting. I wish I know how how to implement it better.

 

[Sarathiour]

Except that the way the game is paced, DD1 characters are actually less expandable than DD2. If you loose a fully geared level 5+, you're going to feel it, because you spend quite a lot of time and resource building it.
Would FTL be better with a relationship system between your crew ? Drama works in those horror movie because relationship evolve during non-action time, and serves to develop characters background. No such thing in DD, and thus, the interaction between them is going to be limited to tactical action and random event (which are always going to be silly at best).

And then they get drunk or be kinky whipping themselves and it's all nice and dandy.

What you are talking about is a gameplay mechanic that force you to change team and spend resources if thing did not go smoothly, whereas I will talking exclusively about the time you hit 100 stress, which is going to have consequences unless you leaves on the spot, and even so, you can't do that everywhere.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

What you are talking about is a gameplay mechanic that force you to change team and spend resources if thing did not go smoothly, whereas I will talking exclusively about the time you hit 100 stress, which is going to have consequences unless you leaves on the spot, and even so, you can't do that everywhere.

Which last 30 min. Probably less because you only hit 100 stress in mid - end of a dungeon in general. As I said, different game entirely on what DD2 is trying to evoke.
You completely miss the point that DD1 and 2 is entirely different game and thus they try entirely different thing.

Except that the way the game is paced, DD1 characters are actually less expandable than DD2. If you loose a fully geared level 5+, you're going to feel it, because you spend quite a lot of time and resource building it.

You are kinda completely missing the point. The mechanic is both mechanical and narrative tool. As far as a roguelite can allow of course, but the intent not only for attrition. If anything the fact that right now it is pretty much with Stress meter being 1.5 health bar (vs DD1 where you have 2 of HP and stress, DD2 has HP as 1 and this weird stress/relationship as 1.5 healthbar) that's the problem.

Would FTL be better with a relationship system between your crew ? Drama works in those horror movie because relationship evolve during non-action time, and serves to develop characters background. No such thing in DD, and thus, the interaction between them is going to be limited to tactical action and random event (which are always going to be silly at best).

This indeed is one core issue of the implementation. Can it be made better as DD2 fleshes out that each character is an actual character instead of just skill container? Probably, and it is a good point.

And there is different thing to do either with FTL. FTL is not treating crewmember as character but as resources. Much like in DD1 is. DD2 certainly is trying a different thing. You can argue that it is a shit attempt but the comparison is not apt.

 

[Reinhardt]

Which last 30 min.

it's not like dd2 run is THAT MUCH longer. and then you will never see those chars again.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Which last 30 min.

it's not like dd2 run is THAT MUCH longer. and then you will never see those chars again.

I mean in Beta sure, but wouldn't there be 5 zones or someshit in final game? I assume you can bring one party through all 5?

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I mean in Beta sure, but wouldn't there be 5 zones or someshit in final game? I assume you can bring one party through all 5?

It's five replays of the exact same game with a different boss at the end, and yeah, heroes who win one round get a buff and can be brought into the next.

 

[Sarathiour]

The issue is that I don't how you are going to flesh out more characters that, by virtue of the game being a roguelike, are essentially a bunch of trope.
I absolutely get that they are trying something else, but this weird focus on relationship is incompatible with the gameplay loop of an hour long disposable run.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

wish @Celerity would come back

I remember being accused of being a Celerity alt. He wasn't wrong about a lot of things in the first game. I quit playing after 17 hours, when I reached the second tier of dungeons and all my guys refused to venture into easy tiers anymore. TBF, the game hardly advertises this retarded mechanic on it's front page.

I actually like the basic design of DD2, It's a ripoff of FTL, and FTL was great. Having heroes reset after each run maintains the challenge in a more balanced manner than just having your characters outright refuse to do easy dungeons anymore. However, I dislike mechanics that punish players for even trying. All great roguelikes/lites reward observation, learning from your mistakes, and careful play. DD2 does not, any attempt to ease the challenge curve is inherently punished.

For example, all heroes start with a positive and a negative quirk. These can be very powerful and even run-changing, such as the ability to get a free heal at the start of any combat round. However they can also be crippling, and if it affects a hero you want to use, you may be forced to deal with a very severe setback, or change out your roster and go with a different team. That's a good design.

However, there are field hospitals where you can pay to have quirks removed. So you may gamble on reaching a hospital early, get rid of the bad trait, keep the good ones, and come out ahead. Except if you do this the game has a 100% chance of saddling your characters with more negative quirks. It just does not allow you to have stable, non-fucked in the head characters. So these interactions are actually traps. That's dumb.

The relationship system falls into the same category. Others are complaining they don't want to bother with such a system, I'm just pointing out that it is a waste of time if they do. The player's interaction is barely relevant.

I don't think it's some extreme crazy thing to point out that RNGing all the player's effort away is bad design, in any game, but to each their own.

 

[mediocrepoet]

wish @Celerity would come back

I remember being accused of being a Celerity alt. He wasn't wrong about a lot of things in the first game. I quit playing after 17 hours, when I reached the second tier of dungeons and all my guys refused to venture into easy tiers anymore. TBF, the game hardly advertises this retarded mechanic on it's front page.

I actually like the basic design of DD2, It's a ripoff of FTL, and FTL was great. Having heroes reset after each run maintains the challenge in a more balanced manner than just having your characters outright refuse to do easy dungeons anymore. However, I dislike mechanics that punish players for even trying. All great roguelikes/lites reward observation, learning from your mistakes, and careful play. DD2 does not, any attempt to ease the challenge curve is inherently punished.

For example, all heroes start with a positive and a negative quirk. These can be very powerful and even run-changing, such as the ability to get a free heal at the start of any combat round. However they can also be crippling, and if it affects a hero you want to use, you may be forced to deal with a very severe setback, or change out your roster and go with a different team. That's a good design.

However, there are field hospitals where you can pay to have quirks removed. So you may gamble on reaching a hospital early, get rid of the bad trait, keep the good ones, and come out ahead. Except if you do this the game has a 100% chance of saddling your characters with more negative quirks. It just does not allow you to have stable, non-fucked in the head characters. So these interactions are actually traps. That's dumb.

The relationship system falls into the same category. Others are complaining they don't want to bother with such a system, I'm just pointing out that it is a waste of time if they do. The player's interaction is barely relevant.

I don't think it's some extreme crazy thing to point out that RNGing all the player's effort away is bad design, in any game, but to each their own.

I don't think so either, I've been of the opinion that the main thing DD and its sequel have going for them is the art style. The 4 man line up thing was kind of cool and there's the core of an interesting idea and setting in there, but the execution is dogshit.

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.darkestdungeon.com/news...oundation-new-fan-designed-monster-and-items/

Red Hook Partners With Make-A-Wish Foundation: New Fan-Designed Monster and Items!​

In late 2022, we had the incredible opportunity to team up with a Darkest Dungeon superfan named Sam through the Make-A-Wish Foundation.

Sam’s wish was to design a new enemy for Darkest Dungeon II. Sam met with Red Hook co-founders Chris Bourassa and Tyler Sigman to discuss the game & get a behind-the-scenes look at DDII’s ongoing development. Bourassa worked closely with Sam to create a horrific new monster, as well as a suite of complementary items (more on those below!).

Today, we’re revealing the fruits of their collaboration:

The Gaunt Chirurgeon!

The Gaunt Chirurgeon is an unconventional support unit for the Gaunt faction. His main attack comes in the form of leeches which will cure diseases on heroes while inflicting a heavy bleed. He may act to heal and support other enemy units during combat, and when pressed, can inflict decent burst damage and bleed with his bone saw.

“Sam’s enthusiasm for Darkest Dungeon was palpable. His energy was so inspiring; I was humbled by his keen desire to work with us. To be honest, I still can’t believe he didn't wish for a ride in an F1 race car, or have Robert Downey Jr visit him in Iron Man armor… We spoke about his interests, favorite factions, and gameplay ideas. I created a few sketches for him, and ultimately worked up a finished design with his feedback. This experience was truly special for me; something I am profoundly grateful for. I wish Sam and his family all the best, and can’t wait to show his creation to our incredible fans”

-Chris Bourassa, Creative Director.

Our team is working to bring the Gaunt Chirurgeon to life. You can expect to see him shortly after our PC 1.0 release later this year! In the meantime, get a sneak peek at some of our early concepts, and the official character art.

Early concept of the Gaunt Chirurgeon and his items!

Official character painting showing the Chirurgeon in all his gruesome glory.

While work was being done on the new enemy concept, we decided to also create some unique items to go into the game ahead of Christmas. One of our game designers, Erich, worked closely with Sam to craft 4 new items that thematically matched his character design. These new additions were: Leeches, Bone Saw, Appalling Apron and Spiked Skullcap. We began designing these items in mid-November 2022 and completed them in time for The Void Between Us Experimental release on December 13th 2022.

These items are available in Early Access now and can be unlocked via the Altar of Hope, and found in a few unique inns and field hospitals in-game. Once the Gaunt Chirurgeon is added to the game you’ll also have a chance to earn these items if you defeat him in battle. Curious about what these new items can do? See their full stats below!

Leeches:

• Remove Disease

Appalling Apron:

• Turn Start: If Bleed/Blight/Burn are present: 2 stacks Regen
• Turn End: Remove Bleed/Blight/Burn
• If Restorative item is equipped: +25% Healing Given
• -50% Healing Received from Skills

Spiked Skullcap:

• If Target Bleed: +15% CRIT
• Apply to Attacker When Hit: Bleed 1
• Apply On CRIT: If Bone Saw is equipped: 2 stacks Bleed
• Gain On CRIT: Add Disease (5%)

Bone Saw:

• Rank 1 Only | Target Rank 1 Only
• DMG: 6-12 CRIT: 10%
• Bleed 5 (3 Turns)

It was an incredibly fun and fulfilling experience bringing Sam’s vision to fruition. Our team is looking forward to the addition of the Gaunt Chirurgeon to Darkest Dungeon II shortly after our PC 1.0 release. Finally, we wish to extend our most sincere thanks to the Make-A-Wish Foundation for making this experience possible.

Learn more about Make-A-Wish and help to support their mission at https://wish.org/

 

[Jermu]

 

[Edgetard]

I love how I can find retards defend this garbage sequel, and XCOM Chimera Squad.
"Oh the devs REMOVED features from the previous game and added woke libtard garbage to the game? Well I still had fun with it and while yes I do infact eat shit that is not a reason to dismiss this game"
Cattle

How come? DD1 main thing was that your heroes were expendable. They could just get killed in a bad roll and you'd get another

Expendable or not - it still tried to put emphasis on more personal aspects of heroes, such as their quirks and phobias. The problem is, the game itself wasn't able to translate these well into the gameplay so they ended up being irrelevant/boring footnotes at worst or annoying/nice-to-have bonuses at best, rather than something character-defining (as was probably originally intended). Streets of Rogue is an example of how traits can impact your playstyle in a big and meaningful way.

Relationships between characters is yet another element that is supposed to work in a manner similar to quirks and phobias, but the "lol-random" nature of it turned them into a joke. Jagged Alliance also had personalities and relationships, which played some role in shaping your team. You could expand on that idea further, maybe even turning it into its own proper system. Obviously in case of Darkest Dungeon the already existing design would make this problematic to implement. This is yet another reason for me why I think Darkest Dungeon 2 went the wrong way.

Look at how people in an actual combat situation talk to each other vs in this game, I'd have less of an issue with the game if the people I was sending to their deaths weren't all gay zoomers and millennials

 

[Reever]

I'll give it another try when it releases. I haven't played it since it went into EA so it'll be nice to see what changed, however I doubt I'll like it that much. There are still so many baffling decisions to me that just don't make sense. The cart "minigame", the relationship mechanic, the token system, less classes than the original. You'd at least you'd think they'd add new classes but there's only one and besides that it's missing so many classes from the original. No Crusader, no Abomination, no Vestal, no Arbalest(Musketeer) etc. WHY NOT INCLUDE THE CRUSADER IN YOUR BASE ROSTER ?!

 

[InD_ImaginE]

WHY NOT INCLUDE THE CRUSADER IN YOUR BASE ROSTER ?!

Not only Crusader but whole Holy based faction. People are assuming they are planned for DLC

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

The relationship system was most likely born out of how Dismas and Renauld (the initial hwyman and crusader you get) got very popular in the community. and you get an achievement for carrying them through the entire game without losing them. It's stupid though, and yeah, it really looks like they are removing shit.

 

[Ibn Sina]

In any case, feedback on this game has been extremely mixed bordering on negative. Just a quick peruse through the steam forums or reddit regarding anything related to this game will show you a lot of fans who were excited at first really turned aganist it, even those who were enthusiastic and had great initial beta impressions.

 

[Skinwalker]

The first game forced me to replay each boss three times (and each level multiple times) to pad out the gameplay length, and then ended with a fairly lame final level. Why did I even bother playing it? I think it was the narrator's voice actor.

Is the sequel also shit?

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

The first game forced me to replay each boss three times (and each level multiple times) to pad out the gameplay length, and then ended with a fairly lame final level. Why did I even bother playing it? I think it was the narrator's voice actor.

Is the sequel also shit?

Yes, all signs point to this being shit. When they announced the Butcher Circus DLC I knew they had lost their way tbh.