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Diablo 3 - Reaper of Idiots

Discussion in 'MMO(RP)G / Online Discussion' started by Farage, Feb 18, 2014.

  1. buru5 Very Grumpy Dragon Patron

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    They seem powerful, but I wouldn't know yet. Mine just hit 38. Just started two days ago and wanted to play through the game without PLing since it's a new class.

    But paragon levels don't really mean shit. They carry over from every character, so being paragon 600 just means you've put a lot of time into the game, it's not an indicator of how broken a class is.
     
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  2. Sykar Arcane

    Sykar
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    Oh man, after heavy criticism of the Derp 3 fanbase Blizzard had a new great idea what to do with Primal Ancient items: Let them roll perfect stats and make their drop rates even rarer.
    You have to admire the pure "genius" of these developers.
     
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  3. Fedora Master Arcane Patron

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    Primal Ancient Items? Wut?

    e: Looked it up - Yea, what could possibly go wrong with permanent power creep like that? GJ Blizz.
     
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  4. Drog Black Tooth Self-Ejected

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    Anybody got a spare D3 key lying around? I want to get in this game and see how it compares to PoE.
     
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  5. buru5 Very Grumpy Dragon Patron

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    I don't, but Blizzard has a $20 sale going on right now for both base game and expansion together, of course you still have to pay for Necro. If you're doing this just to compare it to PoE, don't. It doesn't. Diablo 2 is superior to both still.
     
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  6. Revenant Guest

    Revenant
    Uh, and also I'm the resident shady Blizzard stuff dealer here. PM me if you want Blizz stuff cheap, Codexer discount obviously included
     
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  7. Fedora Master Arcane Patron

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    The power creep is real. I went from freshly leveling to 70 to T10 in a few hours. Haedrigs Gift can easily give you the boost to skip all other difficulties.
    (Good thing there is T13 now...)
     
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  8. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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    Ok since switch emulator works (and 0 slowdowns) and you can now play D3 with all DLC and updates completely offline free from lag and dcs. I decided to give it fair shake. Last time i played it was at release and without saying much it was garbage spend 200 hours with it and if i could i would get refund. I spend 40-50hours playing D3 in last two weeks so by no means i seen all or went deep into end game.

    So:
    - first of all, after playing D3 for a while on sticks i think genre is best played with sticks. I used to think mouse and keyboard was the best for it (muh precision) but ARPG in essence is twin stick shooter with equipment. Playing ARPG like D3 on pad is just better. Once i got to play it like that it clicked in less than 10 minutes. I have gone back to Grim Dawn to confirm it and yep. GD also plays a lot better with pad. Basically what it does is it decouples your movement from targeting, moreover maneuvering is much easier because to maneuver on mouse you have to move mouse which takes more time than just bending stick a bit. All dodge actions whatever it is GD or D3 all also feel a lot better thanks to near instant nature of them. Yes there are some slight issues with not targeting best AOE attack position but overall it is pretty minor stuff once you start playing. Yes if you want to complete is mehsports m+k is the only way but if you want to have more fun sticks is way to go.
    - Itemization. Yes you still get power from weapon regardless of what you do which is retarded but the single most important change i saw was how itemization was changed. Yes standard stats are mesh of "don't care, this adds attack or defense" but because how legendaries have been revised and how frequent they are it doesn't really matter anymore. It is all about special effects from loot. D3 had huge issue because compared to something like POE its skill system was almost static with release version. You had skill and that was it. Currently that is no longer the case. There are vast amount of gear that changes how skills work much more than stuff from Grim Dawn which is sharing similar approach. Here is quick example, i have some one handed scythe that gives my necromancer siphon souls which is single target spell ability to siphon 3 enemies at the time not one. So the real progress when it comes to loot comes from finding right combination of items. In addition to that i found some offhand that gives my siphon soul 40% chance to fire blood nova for free evertime i use it. So basic attack used to fill up my essence reserves now is effectively my main skill. I found a ring that gives me ability to summon 2 mages instead of one at the time. That is just equipment. Then there are gems. At start i though this is all there is but then i got to rifts new form of end game and you get those legendary gems that further open up builds because each gem gives you unique passive ability. In my case i got for an example gem that adds bleed damage after crit strikes for decent amount of damage. There is gem that increased damage to elites for 30second after you kill elite pack etc. There are a lot of those. Then when i think it was all there is i found canai cube, which have ability to extract legendary equipment power and wield it without item. This naturally means that every unique item is effectively passive/active skill you are limited to 3 of those power but still that is another layer.
    Overall D3 after all those changes feels like proper ARPG when it comes to customization of your build and i have to say it almost reaches POE with its combination and it is above GD. Yes classes limit what can you do but overall it gives you a lot of depth to play, test and play for 100s of hours.
    - balance and combat. If anything D3 done right it was combat. It always felt great to smash monsters and watch them fly away. Whole game had physical aspect to it felt like monsters followed some physics, some died with animation, some just flied away after particular hard hit. After playing nearly 1900 hours of POE and 400 of GD i must say that in current form with amount of time i spend with it so far D3 has the best balance when it comes to gameplay. At no point you feel like mistakes were not your own, unlike POE there is noticeable buffer of what you can do and you can't do, there are no out of whack combinations that just one shot you even if you build around defense all deaths i had came from me being to greedy. I don't remember if it was like that on release but elites and champions now usually have small amount of effects rather than large amount but each of those effects actually does something beside stats. So if you see such monster you know there will be something to deal with, it could be field of walls, teleportation etc but it never feels like killing just another random mob which is pretty common feeling in both GD and POE. The single best thing about balance in D3 though is Singletarget vs AOE damage play. Unlike POE or GD (lower but still) single target damage has actually a lot to do. Elites and Champions have usually a fucking lot more HP which means that your AOE spells will be joke for them so you have to develop skills for both single and group combat. It is definitely something i love about it after playing POE and wathcing it kill melee because via GGG head honcho : "AOE is just natural evolution and you shouldn't not play single target"
    - finally alternative to retarded campaign story. Adventure mode is simply way better and frankly speaking after playing adventure mode a bit i think it is much better overall that standard campaigns of ARPGS. D4 is supposedly going this way and i know now why. Nephalem rifts aren't maps of POE and they feel worse overall but imho adventure mode feels just better. You are just cog in machine that just fix shit up which is fresh take compared to retarded campaign.
    - edit: Resource management. I really forgot how POE and GD shit on resource management. In both your mana is basically either off or on, never something you think about. In D3 it is constant balance which forces you to use other attacks than your most powerful.


    Overall my score from initial version 2/10 goes to 9/10. It could change later because i am yet to go properly into end game but overall game feels a lot lot lot lot lot better than release garbage.

    Overall for me now:

    POE > D3 >>> GD. Overall competition has been nice thing and each game improved a lot while leader POE actually degraded due to balance changes and basically annihilating melee in process. IT feels nice to play actual melee character for once in D3.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
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  9. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
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    I also played it a bit few months ago, just to kill Diablo with my Monk that I stopped half way and one thing I got straight from it that combat is boring. Levels are boring and enemies are boring.
     
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  10. polo Erudite

    polo
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    From 2/10 to 9/10, edgy much?
     
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  11. Dawkinsfan69 Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Bethestard

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    i thought all you did in these types of games is left click on shit
    if you're some sort of pro gamer maybe you hit q or e once in a while

    how could that not be boring?
     
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  12. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    This has nothing to do with KBM but a complete lack of development of the genre.
    For an example of how to have good controls with KBM, check out the game Victor Vran. It's mechanically very lite but the controls are far better than any other Diablo clone. It uses WSAD to move rather than click to move, btw.
     
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  13. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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    I should check VVran. Is it any good ?

    I am completely serious. I really fucking hated original campaign and mechanics. Release game was so fucking bland that those generic korean MMOs had more mechanics than it. From whole game only combat is something i liked but that would get stale quickly when you couldn't make builds. The worst part, stat system was annoying precisely because there was nothing above it.

    In comparison current loot has similar stat system but legendary effects make those stat only secondary. So it completely changes dynamic of a system. It is more about trying to find right combination of items to make builds rather than chasing some small stat differences.

    So D3 had fun combat but 0 depth but they fixed depth. So now you have both fun combat and depth to building your character. D3 didn't have end game. Now it has.

    Now in therms of breath of build creation it actually isn't far from POE. Orignal D3 had essentially only few uniques that could change your build. In post 2.0 almost all uniques have special abilities that change how you play then there are legendary gems that further change how you play, then there is canai cube that extract power from legendary items and makes those powers into effects you can turn on off (3 max). Ancient items which were added which are puffed up versions of uniques can also get legendary effects you scrubbed earlier which means you can create even some chains.

    It went from 0 to something like 9 where poe complexity is 11.

    To me action house never was an issue because i don't like trading it was stat system and depth of build creation that was my main issue.

    I still can't quite believe that i changed my opinion on it. I only went back to it because i tested Switch emulator and D3 was only thing that worked perfectly with 0 slowdons and i just wanted to see how shitty ARPG would play on pad. Pad being better for ARPG is another weird outcome. I have 2k hours in D2, 1800+ in POE 500+ in GD and never i though that pad would be better and yet here i am. IT only took like 15 minutes to get "yup that works great"
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
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  14. abija Prophet

    abija
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    It's Perkel. He needed shit like 100000 dmg increase to mix and match items, otherwise stats lacked "depth". Also considering shit like
    he obviously didn't even get to mix and match those items properly :)
     
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  15. Mastermind Arcane Patron Bethestard

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    Monks are the most boring class. There's a couple of fun builds but if you aren't leveled to 70 and have access to compete sets it's a slog.
     
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  16. Mastermind Arcane Patron Bethestard

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    people routinely lose their shit when devs implement WASD movement in diablo clones
     
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  17. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    Those people are retarded.
     
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  18. Mastermind Arcane Patron Bethestard

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    Retarded or not devs are wary from breaking convention.

    Also TBH I didn't like victor vran. Chronicon is a diablo clone with WASD and a much better example of how well one plays.
     
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  19. Xor Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Xor
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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Diablo 3 completely sucked on release; it was a grinding simulator designed to force you to use the AH to get any real progression through its difficulty system. The expansion made it actually a decent ARPG. So I don't know if I would give it Perkel's rating but he's right in that it's in a much, much better state than it was pre-RoS. Still not everyone's thing, obviously, but MUCH better than the massive waste of time and energy (and money) that the original release was.

    Wait until you get up to 100+ grifts where the guardians take half the time limit to kill. HP scaling gets nuts.
     
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  20. Assisted Living Godzilla Arbiter

    Assisted Living Godzilla
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    I wouldn't say this is really true. While not isometric, both Dragon's Dogma and Dark Souls are hack & slash games too. Hell, beside the fact that it's third person instead of isometric, Dragon's Dogma is a pretty similar system in regards to special movies; although Dogma has a superior meter management system for special attacks instead of Diablo's shit cool downs, and because it has direct control instead of point and click stuff like combos make more sense. So there have been developments in the genre, even if this particular corner of the genre hasn't really changed much since Nox and Diablo 2 came out in 2000.

    Bit surprised nobody ever really picked up and ran with any of the stuff Freedom Force did. That would've been a couple years after Nox and Diablo 2. Allowing the player to pick up objects in the environment depending on their strength was a nice touch. And giving the player the option to select attacks from a menu with the mouse was good too.
     
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  21. Kruno Erudite Shitposter

    Kruno
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    Torchlight 3 has infinitely more depth with 1 skill tree than Diablo 3 has with the entire game.
     
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  22. Assisted Living Godzilla Arbiter

    Assisted Living Godzilla
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    I have seen people on Blizzards forums asking for direct controls (usually controller, but WASD would fall into that too) and rolling to be patched in since the console version came out, so it's at least something they know even PC players want.

    I had this realization when I ended up playing Diablo 3 on a console and it just felt so much better. It was like: Oh, this is just a beat 'em up. In the case of Diablo 3 since you don't really do anything with stats I'd say it's actually quite literally a beat 'em up, it just happens to be isometric instead of side scrolling...which some beat 'em ups were anyways. It didn't feel all that different from Capcom's Dungeons & Dragons beat 'em ups from around the mid '90s. Funnily enough it looks like at one point those Capcom games were going to be in a top-down kind of view. Would have been interesting to see how that turned out.



    Now changing it to direct movement does fundamentally change one aspect of the game. And that is without the abstraction of point and click, invisable roll misses just don't work anymore. It's one thing to tell your character to walk somewhere, punch a guy, and he misses. It's another thing when you manually walk your character over somewhere, press the button to make your character attack, you see the attack hit, and then the word "Miss" pops up and no damage is taken like there's something wrong with the hitbox. Maybe they could still pull that kind of stuff off if there were specifically animations for you missing and enemies dodging, (which is how dodges work in action games anyways) but that aspect as it is now (which I'm sure is why they dropped misses from the console versions) doesn't work with a direct control input system.

    It is funny because as much as I like it, and for how much better it feels to play with a controller, Blizzard does some really stupid shit in the console version of Diablo 3. It makes all the talk about the PC version being compromised for a later console version look so fucking stupid, because you play Diablo 3 on console and it's like: They weren't thinking about consoles when they made this. It's not terrible or anything, but there were better ways to do range attacks than want they came up with; even if the auto-lock function works really well.
     
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  23. thesheeep Arcane Patron

    thesheeep
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    That's just rubbish.
    An animation is just an animation, pixels on the screen, something to represent the underlying stat-driven gameplay data / simulation.

    Of course it is nicer if animation and gameplay data align perfectly, but it is by no means a requirement. Nor is it really possible for all kinds of games, or would be pretty damn expensive.
    It is also silly as hell in X-COM and other similar games, when you can see the shotgun even pokes into the opponent's model, yet you still miss at 95%.
    But it works anyway, because it is not the representation that defines what does or doesn't happen, it is the simulation.

    In the same way, input is just input.
    Doesn't matter if you click somewhere and your character goes there and then does something, or if you keep some button pressed to achieve exactly the same outcome.

    In the end, the underlying simulation determines the outcome, not whatever you think you perceive on the screen. That's just feedback.
    At least in case of RPGs - if it behaves differently, you got an action game on your hand.
     
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  24. Assisted Living Godzilla Arbiter

    Assisted Living Godzilla
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    No, that's bullshit. Input isn't just input. One system is an abstract system in which you're telling a character to do something and they do it. It doesn't feel bad if you tell a character to go punch something and they miss. You're kind of out of the equation on that. It does feel bad if you're directly controlling a character however, can see you're hit hit the other character, and then nothing happens. That just feels like you've got a game with shit hitbox detection. You also know the whole point of that quote is it would fundamentally change Diablo to some extent?

    And of all the games to make some kind of point about money on, the Diablo series ain't exactly it. They aren't hurting for money given how big the game is, and I doubt the cost of making it is anywhere near other huge games. Also, having a miss animation stuff like on melee attacks isn't going to brand the bank.

    Given one of the biggest complaints you'll hear about X-COM are missed point blank shots, especially if your missing the target your gun is in, that seems like a very weird example to me.
     
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  25. thesheeep Arcane Patron

    thesheeep
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    It really seems to me you are incapable of understanding how games work.

    Instead you argue about "feelings". Dude, your feelings are irrelevant, what matters is how the game works and how results are calculated and how the feedback is shown to the player.
    If what you see doesn't match what you "feel", the game isn't to blame, it is obviously you who goes about it with a completely wrong stance, expecting it work like something it isn't (a pure action game).
    At no point does the game tell you it is suddenly an action game just because of some input scheme change - and to expect it to do that is absurd -, it's the same game it always was, an RPG at least when it comes to hit & damage calculations.
    If you want to make some actual points, please bring something that isn't 100% based on subjective notions like which input scheme you prefer or how that makes you feel. That's like arguing with children, or reading a lot of Steam reviews.

    I'll agree that Blizzard should have the money to make feedback match the actual systems better if there is a problem, but that's really about it.
    Anyway, there is usually so much going on at the same time, it's a bit of a mystery to me how you even got to notice that there might be a discrepancy between feedback and actual results.
    When I use abilities or swing weapons, I see the HP bars going down and that's it - seems to work fine...

    And though it's been a while since I played, isn't there an option to show damage numbers? Would be additional feedback.

    The point is not that a 95% shot can be missed, that's just logical. The systems work fine, that's what I meant. Whoever complains about that is a blathering idiot with no place to discuss the game mechanic at hand.
    The problem is that the discrepancy is where characters are displayed right next to each other, standing still - which isn't what really happens and could certainly be improved animation-wise (imagine two characters of opposing sides going into some kind of special animation when right next to each other, showcasing they are not, in fact, just standing there). But, again, that's a problem requiring money thrown at it and not every dev has the money for that amount of detail.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020 at 7:30 AM
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