Diablo IV

[Kjaska]

smarter enemy behavior

You don't want that in an aRPG. Smarter enemies will behave the way players do in a pvp scenario in these games, which is a lot of running around, spamming your spells, trying to connect for minutes without any progress, until one of you finally clips the other and two-shots him. It's a frustrating experience, not an engaging one.

Smart enemies are good in games that focus on tactical gameplay, not on farming monsters for loot and xp.

Your point about every other aRPG contender being a miserable failure is also wrong. People are enjoying PoE, Grim Dawn, Last Epoch and Hades very much. Just because none of these represent your perfect ideal of the genre, doesn't mean they are bad additions to the genre.

 

[Lim-Dûl]

smarter enemy behavior

You don't want that in an aRPG. Smarter enemies will behave the way players do in a pvp scenario in these games, which is a lot of running around, spamming your spells, trying to connect for minutes without any progress, until one of you finally clips the other and two-shots him. It's a frustrating experience, not an engaging one.

Smart enemies are good in games that focus on tactical gameplay, not on farming monsters for loot and xp.

Your point about every other aRPG contender being a miserable failure is also wrong. People are enjoying PoE, Grim Dawn, Last Epoch and Hades very much. Just because none of these represent your perfect ideal of the genre, doesn't mean they are bad additions to the genre.

There are many different ways in which enemies can be smarter. Smarter enemies would be more enjoyable to fight as long as they are smarter in ways appropriate for the rest of the game. For example, enemies making formations if there are enough of the same enemy type within a specified area, giving them enhanced or different qualities. Why shouldn't arpgs be more tactical? It needs to be more tactical to improve gameplay quality. All of the games you mentioned are mediocre at best, very far from a "perfect ideal", and that is a miserable failure considering the utter simplicity of the basic philosophy of game they copied.

 

[Kjaska]

For example, enemies making formations if there are enough of the same enemy type within a specified area.

And then what? You have to run around their formation to take them in the rear? That would only make people frustrated after the n-th encounter with this. Pleb tier suggestion.

Why shouldn't arpgs be more tactical? It needs to be more tactical to improve gameplay quality.

Because it doesn't fit with the rest of the game design. If you try forcing this shit in, it will do many things but improving your mythical "gameplay quality" isn't going to be one of them.

The tactical element is enjoyable only when you have ample tools to consider from and ample time to decide on your approach. None of these are viable in an aRPG setting. You would have to slow the gameplay down so much, you might as well make it turn-based. You would also have to give every character a lot of different tools then, which clashes with the idea of archetypes. How is a classical Barbarian going to be tactical? No wonder you think the good games in the genre are mediocre - you've misunderstood the entire genre.

 

[J1M]

False.

There's a spectrum of gameplay between Diablo 1 and Path of Exile. For limited amounts of time (perhaps visiting an old area or with a limited duration buff) it is fun to mow down a room of enemies in a few seconds. Doing that endlessly as the only gameplay loop is not appealing.

A reminder that in Diablo 1 you would use tactics like fighting in a doorway to reduce the number of enemies that could hit you at a time or lure enemies along walls to avoid being surrounded (warrior, rogue). Line of sight was also a consideration.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

there is no point in arguing with path of exiletards, they just want to run around and make everything explode constantly
ADHD: the game

 

[Lim-Dûl]

For example, enemies making formations if there are enough of the same enemy type within a specified area.

And then what? You have to run around their formation to take them in the rear? That would only make people frustrated after the n-th encounter with this. Pleb tier suggestion.

Why shouldn't arpgs be more tactical? It needs to be more tactical to improve gameplay quality.

Because it doesn't fit with the rest of the game design. If you try forcing this shit in, it will do many things but improving your mythical "gameplay quality" isn't going to be one of them.

The tactical element is enjoyable only when you have ample tools to consider from and ample time to decide on your approach. None of these are viable in an aRPG setting. You would have to slow the gameplay down so much, you might as well make it turn-based. You would also have to give every character a lot of different tools then, which clashes with the idea of archetypes. How is a classical Barbarian going to be tactical? No wonder you think the good games in the genre are mediocre - you've misunderstood the entire genre.

And then you could create a game in which you could skillfully dismantle the opponents in at least a moderately intelligent and tactical manner instead of mindlessly pointing and clicking at shiny dumb things on the screen. Why would it not be viable to make available tools and mechanics that make tactical gameplay possible? Why should new games preserve some of the worst aspects of a 20 year old game? You sound triggered. Do you work for GGG?

 

[Peachcurl]

False.

There's a spectrum of gameplay between Diablo 1 and Path of Exile. For limited amounts of time (perhaps visiting an old area or with a limited duration buff) it is fun to mow down a room of enemies in a few seconds. Doing that endlessly as the only gameplay loop is not appealing.

A reminder that in Diablo 1 you would use tactics like fighting in a doorway to reduce the number of enemies that could hit you at a time or lure enemies along walls to avoid being surrounded (warrior, rogue). Line of sight was also a consideration.

Ah yes, mowing down that room full of skellies with flame wall in D1. Good memories.

 

[Kjaska]

A reminder that in Diablo 1 you would use tactics like fighting in a doorway to reduce the number of enemies that could hit you at a time or lure enemies along walls to avoid being surrounded (warrior, rogue). Line of sight was also a consideration.

Okay dude. If you're gonna call that tactics, then PoE has plenty tactical gameplay as well. Tactical gameplay such as:

- loading into Glacier map, popping your red Sentinel, running a big circle aggroing all the mobs a luring them into the middle, before you pop your blue Sentinel, then blasting the mobs
- waiting for the hidden damage reduction phase of the bosses to pass before unloading the full DPS cooldowns on the boss
- pre-stacking your mines/traps before opening up a Harvest patch
- leaving some monsters alive on purpose during Blights before a Boss spawns in the lane
- killing the map boss first, before clearing the map to get better Influence Altars

If those basic LOS abuse tricks (that work in every game) are the extreme end of the tactical spectrum in an aRPG, then it only proves my point.

And then you could create a game in which you could skillfully dismantle the opponents in at least a moderately intelligent and tactical manner instead of mindlessly pointing and clicking at shiny dumb things on the screen.

Those games exist. Outside of the aRPG genre. Go play them. Why do you have to force this shit into a genre, where it doesn't belong?

You sound triggered.

You sound retarded.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

If you ever want to shit on POEtards just ask one in real time to name you ten enemies in that gay game and watch them panic as their mind makes dial-up connection noises.

 

[Lim-Dûl]

A reminder that in Diablo 1 you would use tactics like fighting in a doorway to reduce the number of enemies that could hit you at a time or lure enemies along walls to avoid being surrounded (warrior, rogue). Line of sight was also a consideration.

Okay dude. If you're gonna call that tactics, then PoE has plenty tactical gameplay as well. Tactical gameplay such as:

- loading into Glacier map, popping your red Sentinel, running a big circle aggroing all the mobs a luring them into the middle, before you pop your blue Sentinel, then blasting the mobs
- waiting for the hidden damage reduction phase of the bosses to pass before unloading the full DPS cooldowns on the boss
- pre-stacking your mines/traps before opening up a Harvest patch
- leaving some monsters alive on purpose during Blights before a Boss spawns in the lane
- killing the map boss first, before clearing the map to get better Influence Altars

If those basic LOS abuse tricks (that work in every game) are the extreme end of the tactical spectrum in an aRPG, then it only proves my point.

And then you could create a game in which you could skillfully dismantle the opponents in at least a moderately intelligent and tactical manner instead of mindlessly pointing and clicking at shiny dumb things on the screen.

Those games exist. Outside of the aRPG genre. Go play them. Why do you have to force this shit into a genre, where it doesn't belong?

You sound triggered.

You sound retarded.

You are clearly arguing in bad faith and/or retarded and this makes me wonder what your relationship with PoE is. It sounds like you want more of the same retarded excuse to frantically click on numerous idiots on the screen, and since that kind of retarded game is easy to make, I am sure more such retarded games will be released for retards who like that kind of retarded thing. But it would be great if someone tried to improve the interesting aspects of the retarded game that is Diablo 2 and make it more interesting for other people who are not as invested in retardation.

 

[Kjaska]

Nigga, you're trying to make the genre into something it isn't, claiming it's all shit currently (even though it's better than ever) and blaming me for enjoying it. You have no argument.


D2 created this genre and it wasn't because the combat in D2 was tactical. It was because it had great character archetypes, great character/gear progression system and great atmosphere. You would get this idea of a _specialized_ character build in your head and play through the campaign, developing it, seeing it becoming a reality, seeing it perform. Then go for endless hours grinding up your gear, perfecting and min-maxing. All while doing so in an ad-hoc environment with strangers. Competing for drops, making friends and enemies. You think this shit would be possible, if you had to consider tactical formations every time you engage a pack of monsters? Just go play a real tactical game and fuck off.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

D2 created the genre lol

 

[rusty_shackleford]

it's the same exact genre as cookieclicker

 

[Lim-Dûl]

You think this shit would be possible, if you had to consider tactical formations every time you engage a pack of monsters?

Yes. Not just tactical formations for appropriate enemy types, that would be a mere basic step towards improving the games tactically, but also way more mechanics than that. I never blamed you of anything but being a retard and a shill.

 

[Kjaska]

"Way more mechanics" which you can't think of even in your wishful fantasy iteration of a game, because none of the usual tactical elements fit into the scenario. Even formations wouldn't add anything of value. The player in an aRPG has no pocket cavalry he can deploy to flank a phalanx. It would always be a non-decision to simply strafe around the pack and attack them from their vulnerable side. Or even more pragmatic: just run past them and kill the monsters which don't use a formation.

 

[Lim-Dûl]

"Way more mechanics" which you can't think of even in your wishful fantasy iteration of a game, because none of the usual tactical elements fit into the scenario. Even formations wouldn't add anything of value. The player in an aRPG has no pocket cavalry he can deploy to flank a phalanx. It would always be a non-decision to simply strafe around the pack and attack them from their vulnerable side. Or even more pragmatic: just run past them and kill the monsters which don't use a formation.

A formation can range from very simple to much more complex arrangements involving a wide range of quantities and types of units. Anything involving a tiny semblance of intelligent behavior where enemies coordinated according to how their abilities related to each other's to improve their effeciveness against the player would improve these games, instead of each enemy being as retarded as possible regardless of their surroundings. Anyway, why should I waste my time writing a dissertation autistically detailing any more mechanics when the general idea being suggested is simple and clear, and when clearly you have no imagination, would jump to the most simplistic and uncharitable possible interpretations of suggestions you dislike, and would flat out deny anything other than the most derivative regurgitation of Diablo 2 enemy behavior, when I'm not even getting paid for it?

As I said, there will be plenty more of the retarded brand of arpgs that you prefer where enemies stand around or run at you like retards without regard for how their abilities relate to their allies' and you run around killing everything without even having to look at what they do so I don't even get what triggers you so much about my reasonable and far from uncommon criticisms.

 

[ElectricOtter]

ur both retards and play a game ur supposed to bot xd

 

[Lim-Dûl]

The anime dumbfuck actually raises a good point. These games are so fucking dumb that a bot can play them with great efficiency.

 

[Ryzer]

Nigga, you're trying to make the genre into something it isn't, claiming it's all shit currently (even though it's better than ever) and blaming me for enjoying it. You have no argument.


D2 created this genre and it wasn't because the combat in D2 was tactical. It was because it had great character archetypes, great character/gear progression system and great atmosphere. You would get this idea of a _specialized_ character build in your head and play through the campaign, developing it, seeing it becoming a reality, seeing it perform. Then go for endless hours grinding up your gear, perfecting and min-maxing. All while doing so in an ad-hoc environment with strangers. Competing for drops, making friends and enemies. You think this shit would be possible, if you had to consider tactical formations every time you engage a pack of monsters? Just go play a real tactical game and fuck off.

It started with Diablo 1 which was a completely different game than Diablo 2 in execution to a point that Divine Divinity is probably more of a spiritual successor to Diablo 1 than 2 is.
Diablo 2 is solely responsible for the dopamine-infused shitfest where creatures explode in a nanosecond the genre has turned into.

 

[jackofshadows]

The anime dumbfuck actually raises a good point. These games are so fucking dumb that a bot can play them with great efficiency.

What a stupid statement. Bots nowadays can play basically any game with "great efficiency" if properly made. Much better than any humans, so what?

Anyhow, your angle "make aRPG but smorter and more tacticool" is stupid as well since that what aRPGs are for: obliterating mobs in a fun manner, there's not much more to it. D1 (and DD) weren't different, really.

 

[Lim-Dûl]

The anime dumbfuck actually raises a good point. These games are so fucking dumb that a bot can play them with great efficiency.

What a stupid statement. Bots nowadays can play basically any game with "great efficiency" if properly made. Much better than any humans, so what?

Anyhow, your angle "make aRPG but smorter and more tacticool" is stupid as well since that what aRPGs are for: obliterating mobs in a fun manner, there's not much more to it. D1 (and DD) weren't different, really.

Except bots have been able to do this far before "nowadays".

It doesn't matter what you think arpgs are supposed to be for. I just want a well-made, interesting game.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I was given a diablo 3 account and they banned me for botting
no idea how people grind in those games without botting

this was back when they still had the RMT AH, so they probably don't care anymore

 

[Kjaska]

I just want a well-made, interesting game.

And you're looking for this in the D4 thread? Did they bully you in the tactical rpg subforum for your dumb takes and now you're hoping to get somewhere with the blizzard fans?

 

[jackofshadows]

The anime dumbfuck actually raises a good point. These games are so fucking dumb that a bot can play them with great efficiency.

What a stupid statement. Bots nowadays can play basically any game with "great efficiency" if properly made. Much better than any humans, so what?

Anyhow, your angle "make aRPG but smorter and more tacticool" is stupid as well since that what aRPGs are for: obliterating mobs in a fun manner, there's not much more to it. D1 (and DD) weren't different, really.

Except bots have been able to do this far before "nowadays".

It doesn't matter what you think arpgs are supposed to be for. I just want a well-made, interesting game.

So you're admitting your point was moot in the first place? Cute.

Who cares what you want? It's like walking into FPS game thread and to start demanding branching dialogues or romances/whatever.

I was given a diablo 3 account and they banned me for botting
no idea how people grind in those games without botting

Someone gave you a doomed account so what? Some people cheat, blizz were pretty good at dealing with bots compared to other companies as far as I'm concerned.

There's both skill and joy involved in grind so again: if someone are not getting fun out of it then they should just try some other genre.

 

[Lim-Dûl]

I just want a well-made, interesting game.

And you're looking for this in the D4 thread? Did they bully you in the tactical rpg subforum for your dumb takes and now you're hoping to get somewhere with the blizzard fans?

The original post you replied to simply listed the improvements I wanted to see in the game, eg smarter enemies. And you autistically dragged on the discussion about one example I came up with in passing. This has nothing to do with "getting somewhere" with Blizzard fans. The fuck are you on about?