Diablo IV

[Lim-Dûl]

no, seriously "we need akshun arpeegee gaems to be more tactical, so we need to remove all tactical abilities and make players to not be able to chose their fights, because i like dem formations!"

I get you're doing a bit here but most maneuvering skills are fine as long as they don't let you skip so much of the maps like teleport, and as long as there isn't much value over running outside of combat. PD2 did a decent job with teleport limitations though I would prefer if they were removed completely.

 

[abija]

or multiple archers firing at the same time in the same direction so they are not so trivial, would make the experience much less retarded.

Discussions could be so much better on codex if people actually played games instead of daydreaming about them. What you described is probably one of the most common death sequences in PoE.

Monster behavior, combat mechanics complexity and encounter variety are good enough in this genre. If you take your time and experiment with the games you'll notice there was serious dev time spent there.
Problem is focus on efficiency and the efficiency not being scaled enough with difficulty. Monster AI or the available toolkit doesn't really matter when you clear 3x3 screens in couple of seconds.

 

[Lim-Dûl]

or multiple archers firing at the same time in the same direction so they are not so trivial, would make the experience much less retarded.

Discussions could be so much better on codex if people actually played games instead of daydreaming about them. What you described is probably one of the most common death sequences in PoE.

Monster behavior, combat mechanics complexity and encounter variety are good enough in this genre. If you take your time and experiment with the games you'll notice there was serious dev time spent there.
Problem is focus on efficiency and the efficiency not being scaled enough with difficulty. Monster AI or the available toolkit doesn't really matter when you clear 3x3 screens in couple of seconds.

Ranged units firing shots at the same time as a coincidence is different from units taking actions by considering nearby allied units and terrain. Just because you can clear screens in Path of Exile in a couple seconds doesn't mean it should be done like that for future arpgs. Since some of you keep acting as if nobody wants these changes, I will point out that a simple search about "better AI" will show these complaints are common for PoE and Grim Dawn. And PoE being homogenized zoom zoom blow up the whole screen is another common complaint. Hopefully D4 will not rely too heavily on this retarded aspect exaggerated by GGG but it is doubtful.

 

[Lim-Dûl]

Ironically the issue with that kind of death in PoE also has to do with retarded enemy AI. Enemies should have varying reaction times for "noticing" you, but instead they start attacking as soon as you're in range. Also ranged units firing in the same direction is different from all ranged units firing at you, where firing in the same direction makes projectiles travel in the same direction parallel to each other, while firing at you makes projectiles converge around the point you were at at the time of firing.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

example of the kind of tactical combat you can expect to find in pillows of exile

 

[BlackAdderBG]

If you don't think this is fun you have no soul. Blasting with end game Cyclone is pinnacle of action games.

 

[Tombo]

There were definitely encounters in PoE and D2 where I played more tactically (certain bosses, especially when playing them un-geared) or used skills that required more tactical set-up (Stormbind in PoE where you charge up tiles to increase AoE to multiplicatively increase damage output). I tended to find these encounters and skills more rewarding than generic mobs or more simple, one-click skills.

Unfortunately, the games I've played have skewed away from these encounters (e.g. in PoE, the game heavily incentivizes you to grind through 100+ maps on the Atlas, or in Diablo 2, where most tend to repeatedly fight the bosses on multiplayer runs with at least one OP runner), or these skills (in PoE, a lot of the set-up interactions were nerfed, like frost wall and hydrosphere, and a lot of the one-click skills just dominate).

I know you CAN play these games in a more tactical way (buy boss-map fragments in PoE, or don't use public games in D2), or with less efficient and more fun skills, but the game balance, grind requirements, and mechanics both push me and the majority (based on what I've read from posts) towards this less tactical style of play.

Ultimately, I think this kind of balancing towards a slower paced and more tactical style could be done, and would prefer some more options in the genre designed like that. The other can be fun too, but my gut tells me things have been skewing a little more that direction.

Please tell me my gut is completely wrong and that there are a ton of more tactically designed aRPGs out there that I've missed. As a point of reference, I've recently played PoE, Grim Dawn, D2 (with the median Xl mod that skews a little more the direction I want with its boss/challenge/charm emphasis), and Last Epoch. I've enjoyed them all to an extent, but am always on the lookout for something more what I described.

 

[Lim-Dûl]

Project Diablo 2 endgame content has some parts that resemble what you're saying but there isn't much of it. T4 dungeons, if you decide to solo them, require a relatively meticulous approach to taking apart groups of monsters, taking care not to aggro too many at the same time, since they have different immunities and debuff abilities. Endgame bosses Rathma and DClone encourage using specialized gear, positioning and doging; the Rathma fight has three phases and many players prefer to pack different equipment for each boss in the first and second phases alongside lots of full rejuvs and antidotes.

 

[Kjaska]

Please tell me my gut is completely wrong and that there are a ton of more tactically designed aRPGs out there that I've missed.

Have you tried participating in the Gauntlet event? It happens every league in PoE and has a focus on careful progression and bossing.

Hades is also more rogue-like and less about farming.

 

[abija]

Ranged units firing shots at the same time as a coincidence is different from units taking actions by considering nearby allied units and terrain. Just because you can clear screens in Path of Exile in a couple seconds doesn't mean it should be done like that for future arpgs. Since some of you keep acting as if nobody wants these changes, I will point out that a simple search about "better AI" will show these complaints are common for PoE and Grim Dawn. And PoE being homogenized zoom zoom blow up the whole screen is another common complaint. Hopefully D4 will not rely too heavily on this retarded aspect exaggerated by GGG but it is doubtful.

Not sure you are aware but both D3 and PoE were a lot slower in their original design and you were forced in a more tactical gameplay (hit and miss with PoE since there wasn't enough depth in the game at that time). At least in theory (finding out the devs fail at interpreting the telemetry they gather wouldn't surprise me a bit) it means majority of players prefer braindead zoom zoom. But it also means the gameplay you talk about is there, you just need to play suboptimally.

Ironically the issue with that kind of death in PoE also has to do with retarded enemy AI. Enemies should have varying reaction times for "noticing" you, but instead they start attacking as soon as you're in range. Also ranged units firing in the same direction is different from all ranged units firing at you, where firing in the same direction makes projectiles travel in the same direction parallel to each other, while firing at you makes projectiles converge around the point you were at at the time of firing.

There's no difference in result though when most ranged packs are relatively small and tightly packed. So you are basically wasting dev time and processing power for nothing. Advanced AI is usually a terrible idea in this type of PvE content because you end up with so many restrictions the end result is similar with simple AI + large script library.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

This guy is retarded. Everything he points out as missing in ARGs is there, it's just that when you are at the end game clearing the whole screen in seconds doesn't mean there is no tactics, just that you are so OP you skip it all. Which can be done in 99% of all "tactical" games.

 

[Lim-Dûl]

Ranged units firing shots at the same time as a coincidence is different from units taking actions by considering nearby allied units and terrain. Just because you can clear screens in Path of Exile in a couple seconds doesn't mean it should be done like that for future arpgs. Since some of you keep acting as if nobody wants these changes, I will point out that a simple search about "better AI" will show these complaints are common for PoE and Grim Dawn. And PoE being homogenized zoom zoom blow up the whole screen is another common complaint. Hopefully D4 will not rely too heavily on this retarded aspect exaggerated by GGG but it is doubtful.

Not sure you are aware but both D3 and PoE were a lot slower in their original design and you were forced in a more tactical gameplay (hit and miss with PoE since there wasn't enough depth in the game at that time). At least in theory (finding out the devs fail at interpreting the telemetry they gather wouldn't surprise me a bit) it means majority of players prefer braindead zoom zoom. But it also means the gameplay you talk about is there, you just need to play suboptimally.

Ironically the issue with that kind of death in PoE also has to do with retarded enemy AI. Enemies should have varying reaction times for "noticing" you, but instead they start attacking as soon as you're in range. Also ranged units firing in the same direction is different from all ranged units firing at you, where firing in the same direction makes projectiles travel in the same direction parallel to each other, while firing at you makes projectiles converge around the point you were at at the time of firing.

There's no difference in result though when most ranged packs are relatively small and tightly packed. So you are basically wasting dev time and processing power for nothing. Advanced AI is usually a terrible idea in this type of PvE content because you end up with so many restrictions the end result is similar with simple AI + large script library.

GGG has modified enemy behavior so that they do not attack simultaneously in Heists. This is just a top down approach that leads to a similar effect as what I suggested, except they are not fixing their fundamentally poor approach, merely patching over it. Making units have a randomized range of reaction ("noticing") times provided it's not too wide to feel unsatisfying, and/or other ways to make enemy reactions more realistic feeling, would have prevented this from happening in the first place. Anyway this is unrelated to the volley idea I suggested; you simply misread my suggestion and that part of your post was irrelevant to the post you replied to.

You're right about the majority of remaining PoE players tending towards zoom zoom in the end (don't know how much of this results from conscious preference, could be like power creep, undesired but inevitable for some games), even if they like to complain every now and then. It seems like even if GGG wanted to take things in a more tactical direction, their fans would disagree. Considering how much GGG values community feedback compared to other companies this doesn't seem like the direction they would want to go in. However D4 has a wider potential playerbase and this AI issue and slowing down the game for less actions and more meaningful actions is one of the most common things that get brought up.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

GGG has modified enemy behavior so that they do not attack simultaneously in Heists.

Holy mother of cherry-picking. This change was done, because the mechanics of Heist make for stupid, unfun and cheesy deaths when opening doors where 50 mobs are waiting for you. That has nothing to do with overall mob behavior outside Heist.

Complex mob AI is very annoying in these type of games where there is dozens of NPCs running around. Just try to pick mobs that people hate in ARPGs and you will see that "complex" behavior ones pop in your mind instantly.

 

[Irata]

While we're talking about tactical D1: any modders ever tried to make it a turn-based game?

https://diablo.chaosforge.org/
Not a mod, but - Diablo the Roguelike from the people who made DoomRL and Jupiter Hell.

 

[d1r]

There were definitely encounters in PoE and D2 where I played more tactically (certain bosses, especially when playing them un-geared) or used skills that required more tactical set-up (Stormbind in PoE where you charge up tiles to increase AoE to multiplicatively increase damage output). I tended to find these encounters and skills more rewarding than generic mobs or more simple, one-click skills.

Unfortunately, the games I've played have skewed away from these encounters (e.g. in PoE, the game heavily incentivizes you to grind through 100+ maps on the Atlas, or in Diablo 2, where most tend to repeatedly fight the bosses on multiplayer runs with at least one OP runner), or these skills (in PoE, a lot of the set-up interactions were nerfed, like frost wall and hydrosphere, and a lot of the one-click skills just dominate).

I know you CAN play these games in a more tactical way (buy boss-map fragments in PoE, or don't use public games in D2), or with less efficient and more fun skills, but the game balance, grind requirements, and mechanics both push me and the majority (based on what I've read from posts) towards this less tactical style of play.

Ultimately, I think this kind of balancing towards a slower paced and more tactical style could be done, and would prefer some more options in the genre designed like that. The other can be fun too, but my gut tells me things have been skewing a little more that direction.

Please tell me my gut is completely wrong and that there are a ton of more tactically designed aRPGs out there that I've missed. As a point of reference, I've recently played PoE, Grim Dawn, D2 (with the median Xl mod that skews a little more the direction I want with its boss/challenge/charm emphasis), and Last Epoch. I've enjoyed them all to an extent, but am always on the lookout for something more what I described.

Uh, Diablo 1?

 

[abija]

Making units have a randomized range of reaction ("noticing") times provided it's not too wide to feel unsatisfying, and/or other ways to make enemy reactions more realistic feeling, would have prevented this from happening in the first place.

The realistic behavior of a small pack of mobs is they act together and you eat a volley. In fact what they patched out of Heist is the logical/tactical behavior which translated in horrible gameplay.

You kept mentioning monsters using formations, synergizing abilities and taking advantage of map layout and other nice things to dream about. Why don't you follow trough and think about how fun it would be to have all mobs in a map retreat to some high ground, having ranged spam the player while melee hold the choke points.

 

[Tombo]

There were definitely encounters in PoE and D2 where I played more tactically (certain bosses, especially when playing them un-geared) or used skills that required more tactical set-up (Stormbind in PoE where you charge up tiles to increase AoE to multiplicatively increase damage output). I tended to find these encounters and skills more rewarding than generic mobs or more simple, one-click skills.

Unfortunately, the games I've played have skewed away from these encounters (e.g. in PoE, the game heavily incentivizes you to grind through 100+ maps on the Atlas, or in Diablo 2, where most tend to repeatedly fight the bosses on multiplayer runs with at least one OP runner), or these skills (in PoE, a lot of the set-up interactions were nerfed, like frost wall and hydrosphere, and a lot of the one-click skills just dominate).

I know you CAN play these games in a more tactical way (buy boss-map fragments in PoE, or don't use public games in D2), or with less efficient and more fun skills, but the game balance, grind requirements, and mechanics both push me and the majority (based on what I've read from posts) towards this less tactical style of play.

Ultimately, I think this kind of balancing towards a slower paced and more tactical style could be done, and would prefer some more options in the genre designed like that. The other can be fun too, but my gut tells me things have been skewing a little more that direction.

Please tell me my gut is completely wrong and that there are a ton of more tactically designed aRPGs out there that I've missed. As a point of reference, I've recently played PoE, Grim Dawn, D2 (with the median Xl mod that skews a little more the direction I want with its boss/challenge/charm emphasis), and Last Epoch. I've enjoyed them all to an extent, but am always on the lookout for something more what I described.

Uh, Diablo 1?

Brainfart for not mentioning that one. It's on the docket.

 

[Kjaska]

Anyway this is unrelated to the volley idea I suggested

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

If only he could kill the screen 0.5 seconds faster.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

same kind of people who think wotr has good fights because they just gave enemies ridiculous stats

 

[BlackAdderBG]

same kind of people who think wotr has good fights because they just gave enemies ridiculous stats

Yeah, I'm sure people that are into Diablo clones care deeply about CRPGs design.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

same kind of people who think wotr has good fights because they just gave enemies ridiculous stats

Yeah, I'm sure people that are into Diablo clones care deeply about CRPGs design.

it's obvious the only thing they care about are pretty colors, very low iq genre

 

[hello friend]

I like Diablo 1 but there's nothing tactical about that game. Geez ppl here talking about doorway camping like it's some kind of amazingly deep gameplay.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I like Diablo 1 but there's nothing tactical about that game. Geez ppl here talking about doorway camping like it's some kind of amazingly deep gameplay.

and yet, it's more tactical than just running through a map with everything exploding
diablo 2 + its various clones are games made for plastic eating millennials who derive joy solely through skinner box mechanics chasing that high their deadened dopamine receptors will never give them

 

[hello friend]

Diablo 2 is a good game, and the fact that turbospergs exclusively built hyperoptimised characters with expensive gear so they could shave a few seconds off zoom zooming through Bhaal does not in any way change that. It is unfortunate that copycats only catered to the turbospergs, but Diablo 2 is mechanically an improvement on the first game with worse atmosphere but still pretty great atmosphere. I don't know what's the last time you played Diablo 1 but I did so fairly recently, gameplay wise the only thing it does better is that you have to find your spells.