Diablo IV

[Reinhardt]

You cannot really build anything at level 25 because you don't have access to legendary aspects - legendary items barely drop at that level, I think my characters had one or two.

again - in beta they dropped like candies. that's the point. people who played beta had an opportunity to experiment with builds. you could fill all your slots with legendaries with 1-2 trips to event currency exchange wommyn.

 

[spectre]

people who played beta had an opportunity to experiment with builds.

Seems like not everyone did.

 

[abija]

When people discuss depth in build diversity they only refer to end-game content. Every ARPG in existence can provide build diversity to campaign / mid-tier content. It's completely irrelevant to discuss build diversity in this context. In D4:s end-game content the build diversity is abysmal, it's just a matter of fact. If a sorc is pigeonholed into a build with 4 defensive abilities there is not a whole lot of room for customization, same with barb that has to run 3-shout setup to generate enough fury to spam their core skill. That's another thing. In D4, much like D3, all builds are about a select few core skills so by design the pool of builds is already very limited.

I did try several different builds at 25 but that's a pointless comparison because the content is too easy for it to matter. Again, if legitimacy to something is conditional upon having to experienced it personally, then nobody in this clown thread can talk jack shit about builds until all of you provide evidence of you personally having cleared end-game content with for example, a sorc build using only 2 defensive abilities to disprove these issues.

What you call endgame (lvl 70+, wt 4) build diversity is fine. Certainly on different tiers than your beloved D2. Ex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsmaQvWoDf4
If you had played the game you would have known there's not much difference between that and lvl 25 in terms of difficulty, provided you actually looked at the gear before selling and understood game mechanics.

The actual hard content some try to do at 100, is a whole different issue. It's still better to have it in and use that information to tune the game. But you are talking about build diversity from the spectrum of hard content (or hardcore speedrunners). Sure you can inform yourself from youtube, but content needs time to get there and you also need to scour since most recommended guys are just farming the algorithm.

What really takes the piss is you mentioning D2 when even locking in 3 shouts and berserker for barb provides a lot more build depth/diversity than what D2 had.

You cannot really build anything at level 25 because you don't have access to legendary aspects - legendary items barely drop at that level, I think my characters had one or two.
Some are in dungeons in areas with level requirement of 30-40+.

Also, IIRC the class specialization wasn't in, or wasn't in for all characters, in the betas.

First beta had very high drop rate for legendaries. Server slam had it similar with release.

 

[Angthoron]

You cannot really build anything at level 25 because you don't have access to legendary aspects - legendary items barely drop at that level, I think my characters had one or two.

Some are in dungeons in areas with level requirement of 30-40+.

Also, IIRC the class specialization wasn't in, or wasn't in for all characters, in the betas.

First beta had very high drop rate for legendaries. Server slam had it similar with release.

It did, but unless they allowed the entire pool to drop, you'd not see most of the legendary effects in the beta, since some of them depend on the level, and others depend on world difficulty (only dropping on 3 and/or 4)

 

[Saravan]

When people discuss depth in build diversity they only refer to end-game content. Every ARPG in existence can provide build diversity to campaign / mid-tier content. It's completely irrelevant to discuss build diversity in this context. In D4:s end-game content the build diversity is abysmal, it's just a matter of fact. If a sorc is pigeonholed into a build with 4 defensive abilities there is not a whole lot of room for customization, same with barb that has to run 3-shout setup to generate enough fury to spam their core skill. That's another thing. In D4, much like D3, all builds are about a select few core skills so by design the pool of builds is already very limited.

I did try several different builds at 25 but that's a pointless comparison because the content is too easy for it to matter. Again, if legitimacy to something is conditional upon having to experienced it personally, then nobody in this clown thread can talk jack shit about builds until all of you provide evidence of you personally having cleared end-game content with for example, a sorc build using only 2 defensive abilities to disprove these issues.

What you call endgame (lvl 70+, wt 4) build diversity is fine. Certainly on different tiers than your beloved D2. Ex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsmaQvWoDf4
If you had played the game you would have known there's not much difference between that and lvl 25 in terms of difficulty, provided you actually looked at the gear before selling and understood game mechanics.

The actual hard content some try to do at 100, is a whole different issue. It's still better to have it in and use that information to tune the game. But you are talking about build diversity from the spectrum of hard content (or hardcore speedrunners). Sure you can inform yourself from youtube, but content needs time to get there and you also need to scour since most recommended guys are just farming the algorithm.

What really takes the piss is you mentioning D2 when even locking in 3 shouts and berserker for barb provides a lot more build depth/diversity than what D2 had.

You cannot really build anything at level 25 because you don't have access to legendary aspects - legendary items barely drop at that level, I think my characters had one or two.
Some are in dungeons in areas with level requirement of 30-40+.

Also, IIRC the class specialization wasn't in, or wasn't in for all characters, in the betas.

First beta had very high drop rate for legendaries. Server slam had it similar with release.

Lol'ing at you trying to make a point about me only talking about 'hype builds' and the only example you can provide is the leap build which is literally the barb build being hyped everywhere right now. That leap build will be instakilled a few tiers further into NMD due to lack of defensives from shout. You aren't making a point about build diversity by trying to talk about viability in the narrow range of lvl 70-80. +lvl 70 implies the entire spectrum from there to ultra end game, but you seem too autistic to grasp that.

As for every build being locked into 3 shouts having more depth than D2 is just straight up delusional, no point in discussing that.

 

[Saravan]

Since we

same with barb that has to run 3-shout setup to generate enough fury to spam their core skill.

Barbarians are sadly underdeveloped, with basically two and a half endgame valid builds. It wasn't my favorite class in D2, but I understand where the salt is coming from.
FWIW, The Rend based barbarian doesn't use three shouts.

However, since we're comparing it to D2 (makes sense for me, I'm rather fresh from a full D2R playthrough), Druid and Necro feel really improved compared to D2
with excellent skills, flavor and flexibility (and incidentally have the most variety of builds, with 5 endgame viable, basically one for each key passive).

I did try several different builds at 25 but that's a pointless comparison because the content is too easy for it to matter. Again, if legitimacy to something is conditional upon having to experienced it personally, then nobody in this clown thread can talk jack shit about builds until all of you provide evidence of you personally having cleared end-game content with for example, a sorc build using only 2 defensive abilities to disprove these issues.

You cannot really build anything at level 25 because you don't have access to legendary aspects - legendary items barely drop at that level, I think my characters had one or two.
Some are in dungeons in areas with level requirement of 30-40+.

Also, IIRC the class specialization wasn't in, or wasn't in for all characters, in the betas.

Why are legendary aspects important? They turn meh skills to stuff you can build around.
Let's take Rogue for example. If you want to go ranged, Penetrating Shot underperforms until you get the aspect that turns it to AoE
If you want the melee rogue everyone plays, you need the legendary aspect for twisting blades which can be gotten from a 30+ area in Scogsglen.
Same for Sorcerer. The Aspect for Ice Shards (together with slotting frost bolt in enchant slot which comes from class specialization)
transforms it from a rather poor single target skill to something that melts an entire room in seconds.

And we haven't gotten into building around unique items, which I've only reliably gotten from Helltides thus far, which are 50+ level.

Then there's paragon boards. A lot of it is meh +10% to this and +10% to that, but that's scratching the surface.
Consider Druid with and without anything in the Paragon board. The regular skill tree doesn't give you much in terms of
spirit generation, while there's a dedicated board which lets you expand the spirit pool and stack plenty of spirit on kill effects.
Couple it with the percentage bonuses you get from stats and the regular skill tree and it basically solves any issues with resource generation
you may have had up to this point.

What was even the point of this post? I literally am saying it's pointless to discuss build diversity by 'experimenting' at a lvl 25 cap. Then I move on to say that if we are just going to sit here and say that you have to personally play through something to have a say in it then by all means please go ahead and post evidence of you clearing end game content outside the narrow build options available. No? Ok then stfu about 'yOu DiDnT pLaY iT".

 

[abija]

If your definition is everything lvl 70+ to tier 100 nm dungeons and lilith, then you are simply full of shit talking about build diversity (even doubled down with "singer"). Only comparable content as difficulty in other games is deep delve and maybe custom poe leagues. And those don't really shine in build diversity either. D2, GD, Lost Epoch, Wolcen, w/e don't even have an equivalent metric.

As for every build being locked into 3 shouts having more depth than D2 is just straight up delusional, no point in discussing that.

I said 3 shouts and zerker. 2 skill slots, 50-80% of the talent tree, aspects, paragons >> D2.

 

[Skinwalker]

One thing I discovered is that the time of day inside the game is tied to real time. Every hour of real time it switches from day to night or vice versa, although you have to reload the overworld map by fast travel/exiting a dungeon/logging in and out to see the change.

Kind of a weird way to do it, but it's yet another consequence of the game not having an offline mode. I would have preferred if you could change the time in-game at the inn or whatever, as the visuals are really nice, and it's best to see them during daytime.

What do you mean? The time of day seems absolutely arbitary. I teleport to one place and day switches to night, 2 teleports later its day again and next teleport is night.

Have you been paying attention to the clock? It works very regularly for me. Time of day stays the same no matter what I do within the hour: the moment the clock goes from (e.g.) 8:59 to 9:00 and I teleport, the time of day immediately changes.

 

[Saravan]

If your definition is everything lvl 70+ to tier 100 nm dungeons and lilith, then you are simply full of shit talking about build diversity (even doubled down with "singer"). Only comparable content as difficulty in other games is deep delve and maybe custom poe leagues. And those don't really shine in build diversity either. D2, GD, Lost Epoch, Wolcen, w/e don't even have an equivalent metric.

As for every build being locked into 3 shouts having more depth than D2 is just straight up delusional, no point in discussing that.

I said 3 shouts and zerker. 2 skill slots, 50-80% of the talent tree, aspects, paragons >> D2.

Please post evidence of you running a barb with no more than 1 shout ability that is clearing end-game content. Until then you are just talking shit.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Let's take Rogue for example

Part of the problem with Build Meta is the First Mover effect--everyone tends to copy whoever posts builds earliest and loudest. With Rogue everyone seems to be building around dumb skills. Penetrating shot or Deathtrap; why not both? Twisting blades is a shitty skill that is only used for cooldown reduction, but the effect is minimal and totally worthless against bosses. With the trap passive I can reset Deathtrap with one Poison trap, both of which are great on their own, while Deathtrap conveniently draws enemies into a cluster for Penetrating shot, no AoE aspect required (though it does make it even better). Add in Shadow Imbue for extra AoE punch or Poison for single-target damage (my preference), and Concealment for a guaranteed crit or escape, and the damage is substantial. You end up with a build that is both versatile and strong, without the weaknesses presented by the Meta builds, which tend to be either AoE or boss killers.

But I'm not a streamer, so no one cares.

 

[Skinwalker]

I can't imagine why people wouldn't use Rapid Fire as their core skill for the Rogue. Maybe it drops in efficiency on higher levels, but so far (at lvl 47 rn) it wrecks, especially when combined with skills that cause Vulnerable+Chilled/Freeze. I played through the whole campaign on WTII and only had a hard time with one boss (Duriel).

This is why I don't google builds. Normalize shaming people who play games with walkthroughs and guides.

 

[abija]

Please post evidence of you running a barb with no more than 1 shout ability that is clearing end-game content. Until then you are just talking shit.

Specify exactly what you mean by end game content. You already threw a fit with that random barb build.

If you mean nightmare 80+/lilith you've set the filter too high for build diversity. You cannot discuss build diversity in a vacuum. PoE has more builds than all other arpgs combined. If you require some high deep delve, it suddenly has barely any builds viable
D2 and Lost Epoch are very easy, anything that makes sense goes. That doesn't mean they are some gems of build diversity/balance.

I've said this several times, you're just eating shit and moving the goal post.

 

[Saravan]

Please post evidence of you running a barb with no more than 1 shout ability that is clearing end-game content. Until then you are just talking shit.

Specify exactly what you mean by end game content. You already threw a fit with that random barb build.

If you mean nightmare 80+/lilith you've set the filter too high for build diversity. You cannot discuss build diversity in a vacuum. PoE has more builds than all other arpgs combined. If you require some high deep delve, it suddenly has barely any builds viable
D2 and Lost Epoch are very easy, anything that makes sense goes. That doesn't mean they are some gems of build diversity/balance.

I've said this several times, you're just eating shit and moving the goal post.

Cool, so you got no evidence.

 

[abija]

Did you specify? At least make it clear if you're just shit posting for the sake of it.

 

[spectre]

Did you specify? At least make it clear if you're just shit posting for the sake of it.

Be sure to ask him what he means by "clear", any specific content? Does clear speed matter? Does he allow any deaths? Just in sure goalposts get moved later on.
And more importantly, just to be sure if it's worth the bother, cause I sure as hell ain't going through all the loops just for him to say: ok, cool and fuck off.

 

[Tigranes]

I can't imagine why people wouldn't use Rapid Fire as their core skill for the Rogue. Maybe it drops in efficiency on higher levels, but so far (at lvl 47 rn) it wrecks, especially when combined with skills that cause Vulnerable+Chilled/Freeze. I played through the whole campaign on WTII and only had a hard time with one boss (Duriel).

This is why I don't google builds. Normalize shaming people who play games with walkthroughs and guides.

I'm doing Penshot / Rapid / Poison for some flexibility & variety - you could probably go all in on RF here as well, but I think many builds can do just fine (i.e. 5-10min NMD clears at 3 levels above), at least into WT4, with a bit of experimentation. Not convinced any of the ultimate skills are worth it, though.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I can't imagine why people wouldn't use Rapid Fire as their core skill for the Rogue. Maybe it drops in efficiency on higher levels, but so far (at lvl 47 rn) it wrecks, especially when combined with skills that cause Vulnerable+Chilled/Freeze.

I tried that and found it was wonderful for bosses but I had limited AoE effectiveness and was easily overwhelmed by crowds. I planned to revisit if/when I got the ricochet aspect but in the meantime using combo points + penetrating shot was happier medium for crowds vs. elites (plus with the knockdown upgrade for penetrating shot you can keep elites perma-stunned--literally helpless).

 

[Skinwalker]

I tried that and found it was wonderful for bosses but I had limited AoE effectiveness and was easily overwhelmed by crowds.

That's what Blade Flurry or whatever it's called is for.

 

[KIss My Ass]

This game will never get any meaningful discussions here because the codex is primarily populated by jewish cheapskates and impoverished third worlders. That is why there are only about 4 or 5 of us who actually purchased the game, and every single one of us seem to be enjoying it. The rest of the codex can't pirate it and the game will never go on sale at 90% off so the cheapskates wont bother. They will never get to experience this fine game and I'm glad. Keep hating you miserable cunts.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I think the game is different enough from D2 and D3 to be its own thing, with DNA from both. It is incorrect to say the game is about building around a single damage dealing skill--if you are playing that way you are too stuck in a D2/PoE/Grim Dawn mindset. The game is about finding synergies between skills to create an effective combo chain, where all your skills deploy naturally in sequence to deal maximum damage together. If a skill is on your bar that doesn't feed into another skill in some way then it is a bad pick.

This game will never get any meaningful discussions

Bruh, check out the Kangmaker thread sometime.

 

[Grauken]

Bruh, check out the Kangmaker thread sometime.

He's not smart enough for that

 

[Filthy Sauce]

I made my new barbarian character a strong black woman.

This game is woke shit 0/10

 

[KIss My Ass]

Bruh, check out the Kangmaker thread sometime.

He's not smart enough for that

RTWP games are crap. I don't touch that trash.

 

[e-mailio estevez]

I picked up D4 largely to play it with my old MMO buddies I used to play DAoC and Warhammer Online with and have disliked it far less than I expected. It's got it's set of problems but I'm having fun with it, and I absolutely despised D3.

But I don't know how anyone could claim it's more complex than D2 or has more build diversity that you could use in the end-game. Just the fact that D2 has runewords that grant you abilities from other classes widens the field so much in D2's favor that in my opinion it's not even close, and the recent patches in D2: Resurrected have only made more classes and abilities viable.

D2 has goldfind barbs and magic find barbs that revolve around buffing up your merc to the point they can target farm certain areas meanwhile your character acts more like a sidekick who spams Find Item on their corpses. D2 has all kinds of unique builds due to the strength of it's itemization, such as werebear Sorceress builds, Exploding Arrow builds for the Paladin or my favorite the Riftsin who is able to tackle any immunity by proccing like 5 different elemental abilities from other classes like Frozen Orb, Flame Wave and Tornado. All viable endgame.

Just the fact that skill damage in D2 is decoupled from your weapon damage will result in more variety and gearing options until the end of time, IMO.

That being said we'll see how D4 pans out in this regard in future seasons and patches. I like the Aspects and Paragon board in concept and I hope in the future they add more interesting ones and tweak what you can do with the board more. I'd like the ability to move where you can put the glyph on some of these boards. Aspects to me are essentially D4's version of runeword abilities and I think their implementation is rather clever, although I wish they were a little more ballsy with some of the 'aspects' that are tied to uniques and made them stronger.

I've played a lot of ARPGs over the years, this past year I've been dabbling in Din's Curse for instance. There are certainly things I dislike about D4, but I think the one advantage it has over D2 is that Nightmare Dungeons are fun, Helltides are a good time and generally it has some enjoyable and repeatable endgame content. Once the Cow level, Chaos Sanctuary and Bhaal become trivial affairs the endgame definitely get stale in D2. I could get into where D4 is lacking but we'll see how things shake out after some more patches.

 

[KIss My Ass]

Dude I got jipped hard out of resources, money, and a good affix. I was enchanting an item, had the controller resting on my leg while comparing the two affixes on google and moved slightly. Hit a button that changed screens and I got nothing. I will fucking burn the entire planet for this.