Disco Elysium Pre-Release Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Kasparov]

Personally I think vertical works best because of the conditioning we’ve got from phones. Scrolling though twitter or some other feed

Edit: browsing the Codex on your phone

 

[Shadenuat]

We don't read books on our monitors by positioning them like that, do we?

I mean, if it's a picture book, sure we do.

The picture book, if we mean kiddy stuff, often has same amount of information on both pages following one into another. It also doesn't have same choices, their presentation and effect.

So, if we take this here

Am I the only one bothered that interface and important choices where you interact with the game take about, what it be, 15% of the screen? Maybe less? The rest is visual presentation.

And the odds and your skills are just shoved as close to the far right edge of the screen as possible. Noone finds it odd?

I guess it is made to be "light", just like that thing to the bottom left for example, very simple and non intrusive... which also doesn't give any friggin idea what the hell is that supposed to be, because just looking on two red bars and one blue, normal person would never guess what the hell are they supposed to represent (as compared to, say, Diablo-likes red&blue liquid holders with chained angels and demons making them at least hint you on *something*).

 

[Zombra]

And the odds and your skills are just shoved as close to the far right edge of the screen as possible. Noone finds it odd?

I don't. The art is important, and the stats aren't going to change if you put them in the middle of the screen.

This isn't a battle RPG anyway, it's not like you're going to be constantly crunching numbers.

 

[Shadenuat]

I am odd then. I think of art more as feedback, at least in that type of the game, and that sort of situation where player interacts with the interface, not with the art itself.

 

[Zombra]

It is certainly traditional for stats to be more important than style in RPGs. DE is already challenging our assumptions eh?

 

[Shadenuat]

I am pretty sure it's not true at all. Traditional RPGs worked a lot on their style, and especially on memorable UI.

I am just making guesses on what's ergonomical and what's not. And from my point of view, information sources should be closer to each other. And more prominent too. I like when graphics is focused on the shit I am thinking right now and choices I am making.

 

[nobre]

Are we gonna get over-the-top death animations y/n?

 

[AwesomeButton]

I am pretty sure it's not true at all. Traditional RPGs worked a lot on their style, and especially on memorable UI.

I am just making guesses on what's ergonomical and what's not. And from my point of view, information sources should be closer to each other. And more prominent too. I like when graphics is focused on the shit I am thinking right now and choices I am making.

I like dialogue being on the bottom too. However I can see the argument for having it on the side.

1 It allows for larger text and displaying more lines
2 The column width of the text is such that putting it across the whole width of the screen would be overkill. 1/3 rd of a widescreen's width is quite enough
3. gives the player an uninterrupted view of the are where his character is, from top to bottom.

The core reason is that present day displays are wider than their height.

 

[Kasparov]

We don't read books on our monitors by positioning them like that, do we?

I mean, if it's a picture book, sure we do.

The picture book, if we mean kiddy stuff, often has same amount of information on both pages following one into another. It also doesn't have same choices, their presentation and effect.

So, if we take this here

Am I the only one bothered that interface and important choices where you interact with the game take about, what it be, 15% of the screen? Maybe less? The rest is visual presentation.

And the odds and your skills are just shoved as close to the far right edge of the screen as possible. Noone finds it odd?

I guess it is made to be "light", just like that thing to the bottom left for example, very simple and non intrusive... which also doesn't give any friggin idea what the hell is that supposed to be, because just looking on two red bars and one blue, normal person would never guess what the hell are they supposed to represent (as compared to, say, Diablo-likes red&blue liquid holders with chained angels and demons making them at least hint you on *something*).

I’ll point out that the bars on the left are specific to dialogue mode - if you’re exploring you will have your character portraits there in addition to the bars.

 

[Shadenuat]

3 points

my 3 points

thingie on the bottom left

odds %

Spoiler

dialogue, after playing the game (and reading) for hours

Spoiler

But maybe I am just old lol.

 

[Big Wrangle]

Or maybe it's time to get those glasses.

 

[Shadenuat]

I paint 25 mm miniatures with highlights without glasses.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I assume text will be able to scale, or in the worst case, you can downgrade your resolution of course.

 

[Background Character]

Fuck, all the skills in this game look so good, how many can you max in a playthrough? Motorics update when?

I can easily see myself playing this over 7 times

 

[Fenix]

Translated update and injected its sweet poison in some imageboard. )

 

[agris]

post

Ah, kids. Simply READ THIS and let it rip:

COMBAT IN DISCO ELYSIUM
ROBERT KURVITZ
Game Designer

Now that we have a flashy screenshot to illustrate it, let’s talk about combat in Disco Elysium.


1. There are only a handful of instances of it. These are half-scripted, pseudo turn-based, set piece combat encounters. They are not cheap to animate and program. They come along as the pace and style of your investigation dictates. When you get cocky. When you push a violent angle. When you don’t move fast enough. When you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is the narrative logic of a cop thriller, or a hardboiled novel, not a war game.

But they will come along (although only one of the encounters is entirely unavoidable).

2. There are tactical choices to be made. Let’s take the screenshot as an example. The entire scene is one nerve-racking tumble of choices. These bad dudes are trying to get to what’s behind you. (Spoiler territory – not shown in the screenshot). Do you try to talk them down, try a peaceful angle? Or shoot first? As you deplete topics, the conversation will return you to this hub. Taking the shot may have gotten easier if you lulled them into a sense of security – or harder if you’ve been tricked. Your skills will advise you, guide you. But are they right? Maybe they’re just scared?

And that’s only the foreplay. When you do decide to shoot, you do so by clicking on that Hand/Eye Coordination red check. (If it’s your attack of choice of course – what’s available depends on your weapons: more on that later).

What follows is what we writers call a whirl. Think of it as a pseudo-turn. First you either hit or miss with that Villiers 9mm. The resulting havoc will play out in cool and insanely budget-consuming animations. The opposing force will then try to retaliate. At that point the screen will freeze into a time-stop. During this time-stop you take in your immediate surroundings and consult your skills. This is the titular whirl, since you’re constantly directed back to a hub of choices. You may gain tactical information from your surroundings. See what your partner is doing. All the while you’re confronted with a Reaction Speed red check to dodge the incoming enemy fire. That active check becomes harder or easier depending on your skills guidance via passive checks: Visual Calculus has drawn your attention to the angle of attack, Half Light has gotten scared and wants you to run!

Once you click on that red check, you either get shot or dodge the bullet, and enter another whirl.

Using these whirls we can (painstakingly) build any custom combat encounter, and give it the detail and skill-focused storytelling we’re going for.

3. As demonstrated, there are dice rolls, with percentages. A ton of them. We use active dice rolls of the red check variant, where both the negative and positive outcomes are played out. The stars of the show here are: Hand / Eye Coordination, Physical Instrument, and Reaction Speed, but others feature too. And as always, you can buff these rolls with the Electrochemistry system, by carrying a bottle and a ciggie into combat, bad cop style.

4. Your items decide what you can do. No gun – no shooty, etc. They also provide old fashioned bonuses and penalties to the active checks you’re rolling. Wearing a heavy armour makes dodging that shot harder. Having a better gun makes hitting that shot easier. A sports visor keeps the sun from your eye and makes you more likely to get that Visual Calculus tip during the second whirl.

And not only that – thoughts in your thought cabinet may also contribute. These mercenaries are wearing a strange new type of ceramic armour. Research it – for weaknesses! – and that Hand/Eye Coordination gets one of those massive bonuses game devs like to talk about.

5. It’s not all number crunching, it’s also about style. You’re going to want to have a high Pain Threshold character for a combat encounter, just to get painfully immersive information about your body breaking down, in exquisite, spleen rupturing detail. It’s like Nabokov said: dying is fun. (Only it’s really not). Or max out on Shivers and see what this muzzle flash looks like from the perspective of the wind; hear it echo down the street. And you can still use Rhetoric, Drama, Authority etc too — you don’t have to stop talking the opponents down, or taunting them, or relaying information to your squadmate, because the “battle grid” came out. Dialogue options can be part of the whirls.

Okay, so to recap: each whirl begins with all actors moving in a totally unique way, animated by Eduardo Rubio, our animation lead — one hell of an animator, that guy. We use time-stops at the end of each whirl. Then there are options to consult your senses, where skills jive in. And each whirl is exited by rolling another red check that begins another animation, etc. Until the situation is resolved, or you’re dead.

Oh and:

6. If someone gets killed during all this – someone important to you or the case – they stay dead. There is no disconnection between story and combat in Disco Elysium. The results of each decision you make – or fail to make, because you were trying to be diplomatic – is played out. People die, people have their bodies broken. They remember that you tried to punch them and fell over, because you were drunk. This stuff stays with you. You sustain a wound and people say: hey, you don’t look so good officer, stop bleeding in my fishing village.

If this sounds like a lot to produce, then that’s because it is. Do not expect an encounter to await behind every corner. But I thoroughly believe this approach is, if not the future of RPGs, then an early warning of that future. Consider the possibilities: fisticuffs in a burning building, a direct artillery hit on your Station, an exchange of fire during a car crash. These are all action scenes we’ve told in the pen and paper version of the Elysium role playing system. It’s our brand of pen and paper action scene – and this set piece centred combat system is our way of getting it to you, in a video game.

The beauty of the system is — we can just as well put you in a squad based combat situation, as we can have you jumping over a chasm to get into the harbour. It’s a one-size-fits-all solution for action scenes, comprising both combat, and acrobatics / environment interactions. Both use whirls and time-stops.

It is powered by Metric, our downright vitruvian character customization that represents the human mind and body in a realistic manner, and was made possible with some pretty complicated animation programming.

Next time we’ll talk about those Motoric skills that are crucial to surviving a situation like this:

Zed can this get a newspost please? It's pretty meaty and the first true reveal of the combat system afaik.

 

[Fenix]

Codex staff literally ignoring DE.

 

[fantadomat]

Codex staff literally ignoring DE.

You mean the jew.Kasparov why don't you put some corrupt journo similar to infinitron? It will be fun if he gets butthurt.

 

[Zombra]

I paint 25 mm miniatures with highlights without glasses.

And super eyestrain work like this makes your vision for other things stronger?

Anyway, here's the basic deal. In a game like Total War or something, a wider graphic perspective might make sense, but here with just a few characters onscreen at once, it's better use of real estate to give the visual field more height.

Lots of wasted space

Much better use of space

Now I get what you're saying about turning your neck maybe being more work than looking up and down, but you're also essentially talking about just not using most of the screen.

You might just as well

because why not at that point?

 

[Jinn]

Not super thrilled about the apparent very few instances of combat we'll come across in this, but it makes sense in the context of the narrative and setting. And at least they are upfront and honest about how many we can expect. The encounters sound like they will be fun and interesting when and if they end up occurring.

I know I'm just being old and stubborn and stuck in my ways, but I still very much so want tactical combat on a visually represented field, and a fair amount of it (or at least possibility of it) in my CRPGs. The bold proclamation of "But I thoroughly believe this approach is, if not the future of RPGs, then an early warning of that future," has got me a little worried about how combat will be valued by ZA/UM in their future projects. And please don't get me wrong, I'm still very excited for this game. Just been waiting for an official update on the combat system for awhile, and am slightly disappointed by some of the above details. That being said, the actual elements explained of what the combat is mechanically has got me VERY eager to experience these moments in Disco Elysium.

 

[Cael]

Codex staff literally ignoring DE.

You mean the jew.Kasparov why don't you put some corrupt journo similar to infinitron? It will be fun if he gets butthurt.

Just promise him a free copy of the game and he will shill it from the rooftops, and give anyone disagreeing all sorts of nasty labels and votes and organise their gangbang rape and murder.

 

[Kasparov]

snip

Thanks for the excellent paint job!
This is indeed part of the reasoning. There is also fog of war to account for and in some cases with the horizontal dialogue you’ll get that last example situation on your screen:

With the dialogues and other text in the sidebar we have more flexible screen real estate available (better proportioned) for composing our scenes (go back a bit and and read that bit on combat), for camera panning and zooming for dynamism and directing focus to animations and important elements in the world. You might have seen paintings in the background in some cases - this works beautifully with those as well. Consider merecasting in TToN:

They use TWO different UI layouts with separate logic for essentially doing the same thing. There are also inventories, character sheets, in our case the Thought Cabinet. By using only one approach we won’t make the player learn one more UI for no reason. True, that last bit should not be a gargantuan task for any players of the formidable Codexian persuasion, but the fact applies for good design IMO.

-snip-

I know I'm just being old and stubborn and stuck in my ways, but I still very much so want tactical combat on a visually represented field, and a fair amount of it (or at least possibility of it) in my CRPGs.

-snip-

That being said, the actual elements explained of what the combat is mechanically has got me VERY eager to experience these moments in Disco Elysium.

Thank you for your thoughts. It seems to me you’re complaining that a donut is a shitty pancake. You described it well yourself - this approach works well for this kind of story and this kind of game. I’ve mentioned elsewhere that there have been discussions of more traditional combat systems around the studio with novel concepts so far largely unexplored in cRPG combat. If future budgets allow... I wouldn’t worry about future games yet.

Right now this is our focus.

Just promise him a free copy of the game and he will shill it from the rooftops, and give anyone disagreeing all sorts of nasty labels and votes and organise their gangbang rape and murder.

We’ll round up major stories from our touring the expos soon and assemble them so it allows for easy repurposing it all as newsposts perhaps. We wouldn’t mind extra coverage on the front page of the Codex, but MCA is doing his thing right now and anyway EDGE just printed a four page story and PC GAMER supposedly did the same thing. RPS got our back. We’ll try to hang in there until then Meanwhile let Infinitron be!

 

[Jinn]

Thank you for your thoughts. It seems to me you’re complaining that a donut is a shitty pancake. You described it well yourself - this approach works well for this kind of story and this kind of game. I’ve mentioned elsewhere that there have been discussions of more traditional combat systems around the studio with novel concepts so far largely unexplored in cRPG combat. If future budgets allow... I wouldn’t worry about future games yet.

Thanks for the response! Glad to hear some traditional tactical combat mixed with some much-needed innovation is still a possibility for you guys in the future.

 

[Zombra]

To go on record in more depth, I am super thrilled at the prospect of RPGs in which lethal conflict is a rare and weighty event, yet still handled with statistics and mechanics, retaining the importance of a character build suited for it and skillful player decisions. Finally, an RPG in which I don't kill 20 muggers on the way from my apt to downtown and then act like nothing happened. As a big fan of detective thriller and spy novels, I'm delighted to see a game that intends to reflect the idiom in which every moment of conflict is uniquely described, and resists the reflex to reduce the hero to a unit on a chessboard and particularly the development of "standard tactics". Tactical RPGs are great! but must not be held as the One True Form of the genre. Narrative combat is absolutely is a important direction that some important RPGs should grow towards. Don't let this game be the first and last of its kind.

 

[Mustawd]

Et Tu Zombra ?