Or that do have to do with the talker. The talker may have a slight headache. The talker may see a shiny object. The talker's belt might have worked itself slightly too loose over the day, making them uncomfortable and off their game in this moment (and if you take a second to cinch your belt tight in the middle of an argument, you look like a dork). The talker might mishear a word and respond inappropriately. The talker might salivate at the wrong time, causing them to have to stop and swallow in the middle of a crucial sentence. The talker might even blink at the wrong instant and lose eye contact. Not to mention synergetic factors between the talker and the listener. Anyone who has ever performed on stage knows what I am talking about.Of course persuasion can be affected by luck. People can be more open or less open to being influenced at any given moment based on a million factors that have nothing to with the talker.
I said it to myself a couple of times and still sounds incredibly wrong, i know the more you have of a skill the more chance you have to pass a dice roll check of that skill, but it's still dice rolls you know; those things that people use to gamble n stuff........ because they're luck based.Dice rolls do not represent sheer luck. Say this to yourself until you really understand it. Once you can demonstrate that you do, come back to the conversation.That was not my point, my point was the fact it's based on luck is unrealistic.
Of course persuasion can be affected by luck. People can be more open or less open to being influenced at any given moment based on a million factors that have nothing to with the talker.
I agree. They should write one million more words.I said it to myself a couple of times and still sounds incredibly wrong, i know the more you have of a skill the more chance you have to pass a dice roll check of that skill, but it's still dice rolls you know; those things that people use to gamble n stuff........ because they're luck based.Dice rolls do not represent sheer luck. Say this to yourself until you really understand it. Once you can demonstrate that you do, come back to the conversation.That was not my point, my point was the fact it's based on luck is unrealistic.
Of course persuasion can be affected by luck. People can be more open or less open to being influenced at any given moment based on a million factors that have nothing to with the talker.
Yes there are external factors that influence your ability to persuade people, but why be lazy and represent those factors with an abstract dice roll, why not implement some of those things to the game, like maybe implement personality traits to NPCs, maybe have your reputation influence people's opinion of you which in turn influences your ability to persuade them, maybe implement a system that allows you to store informations and secrets and rumors that you encounter or investigate about people in a journal or something, so you can weaponise those informations against those people to make it easier to convince them, there are way better ways to implement those things then just have a dice roll.
I agree. They should write one million more words.I said it to myself a couple of times and still sounds incredibly wrong, i know the more you have of a skill the more chance you have to pass a dice roll check of that skill, but it's still dice rolls you know; those things that people use to gamble n stuff........ because they're luck based.Dice rolls do not represent sheer luck. Say this to yourself until you really understand it. Once you can demonstrate that you do, come back to the conversation.That was not my point, my point was the fact it's based on luck is unrealistic.
Of course persuasion can be affected by luck. People can be more open or less open to being influenced at any given moment based on a million factors that have nothing to with the talker.
Yes there are external factors that influence your ability to persuade people, but why be lazy and represent those factors with an abstract dice roll, why not implement some of those things to the game, like maybe implement personality traits to NPCs, maybe have your reputation influence people's opinion of you which in turn influences your ability to persuade them, maybe implement a system that allows you to store informations and secrets and rumors that you encounter or investigate about people in a journal or something, so you can weaponise those informations against those people to make it easier to convince them, there are way better ways to implement those things then just have a dice roll.
Fixed.I agree. They should write 200 trillion more words to cover all imaginable contingencies of the shit that can go wrong.Yes there are external factors that influence your ability to persuade people, but why be lazy and represent those factors with an abstract dice roll, why not implement some of those things to the game
Fixed.[/QUOTE]I agree. They should write 200 trillion more words to cover all imaginable contingencies of the shit that can go wrong.Yes there are external factors that influence your ability to persuade people, but why be lazy and represent those factors with an abstract dice roll, why not implement some of those things to the game
As for using informations you collect on people to better persuade them is something that has already been done in games like arcanum and fallout, and i am under the impression that Disco Elysium does have that since it's a game based on investigation.
Honestly, this argument is nothing but apologetics, arcanum and fallout and existing examples of games that handles persuation in much better methods then dice rolls and those games don't have a billion words in them.
Can confirm. Lots of checks are modified by previous actions. Many hard red checks can be made a lot easier by softening up the witness in all kinds of ways. It wouldn’t be much of a cop game if it didn’t even attempt to model interview technique.
Speech checks in Fallout 1 include dice rolls.
Yes. The best fiction is that in which the protagonist can screw up. When James Bond misses a difficult pistol shot, it's much more exhilarating when he eventually wins the fight anyway. When Sam Spade gets the shit kicked out of him because he didn't realize the fat man didn't need him any more (he thought), we love to see Spade come back and outthink them all in the end. Neither of these guys truly blundered, factors just weren't in their favor at the time. This doesn't mean Bond is a poor shot, or Spade is stupid.Put all your points into being cool and you’ll be one cool motherfucker, but you’ll still screw up a few times over the game, which means you can’t ever be completely certain that doing the cool thing will always work. Conversely, if you’re the biggest nerd on the planet you will still manage to get away with it on a few occasions, making your usual awkwardness that much more of a highlight.
Every skill involves dealing with the unpredictable. I bet you've had a lace break when tying your shoes. How did you deal with it? Does this mean you suck at tying shoes?i don't have an issue with dice rolls when it comes to skills that involve some luck like lockpicking or something.
Every skill involves dealing with the unpredictable.i don't have an issue with dice rolls when it comes to skills that involve some luck like lockpicking or something.
Good thinking. Disco Elysium: a 1:1 simulation of the real physical universe. Why didn't the devs think of that?Some way more then others, and if you can implement some of those unpredictables to the game instead of lumping them into the abstract concept of dice rolls, then why not.
Good thinking. Disco Elysium: a 1:1 simulation of the real physical universe. Why didn't the devs think of that?Some way more then others, and if you can implement some of those unpredictables to the game instead of lumping them into the abstract concept of dice rolls, then why not.
Every skill involves dealing with the unpredictable.i don't have an issue with dice rolls when it comes to skills that involve some luck like lockpicking or something.
Some way more then others, and if you can implement some of those unpredictables to the game instead of lumping them into the abstract concept of dice rolls, then why not.
Good thinking. Disco Elysium: a 1:1 simulation of the real physical universe. Why didn't the devs think of that?Some way more then others, and if you can implement some of those unpredictables to the game instead of lumping them into the abstract concept of dice rolls, then why not.
This ladies and gentelmen is called a "strawman" where you misrepresent what someone is saying or put words into someone's mouth then counter those words, i said "some of them" which means only those that are possible to implement and i am mainly referring to persuation really.
Let's be clear here. Your position is that a special subsystem should be implemented for social skills, to eliminate dice rolls only for those skills, because social situations can't be influenced by a colossal variety of uncontrollable factors, unlike other situations?This ladies and gentelmen is called a "strawman" where you misrepresent what someone is saying or put words into someone's mouth then counter those words, i said "some of them" which means only those that are possible to implement and i am mainly referring to persuation really.
rusty_shackleford it's the year of our lord 2019, do people really still not know how speech checks in Fallout work?
https://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/fallout-1-2-skill-rolls-mmmm-rolls.198794/
They do implement many of those unpredictables, but others are part of the roll. Otherwise you just have an instant-win button and you never really have to cope with the unexpected. Hard checks make sense in games where the dialogue is not the main gameplay, but this is not one of those games. If you think RNG makes sense in typical RPG combat, then it makes sense in Disco Elysium's conversations.
Stop acting like a retard and people will stop treating you like one
Let's be clear here. Your position is that a special subsystem should be implemented for social skills, to eliminate dice rolls only for those skills, because social situations can't be influenced by a colossal variety of uncontrollable factors, unlike other situations?This ladies and gentelmen is called a "strawman" where you misrepresent what someone is saying or put words into someone's mouth then counter those words, i said "some of them" which means only those that are possible to implement and i am mainly referring to persuation really.
Fair point, and trust me i have no issue with RNG but i like to be at least able to have an idea on how to try to mitigiate those unpredictibals or at least have a sense where they're coming from instead of just total abstraction
Why social skills? What is it about trying to change someone's political opinion (for example), that makes it much more predictable and controlled than something like climbing a wall? Is wall climbing impossible to model? Why is a dice roll OK for wall climbing or lockpicking, but not for something super intangible like making someone trust you? Honestly I'd say it's the other way around.If not eliminate them at the very least lessen their impact on the game as much as possible by trying to implement what you can of those unpredictabls.