Dishonored by Arkane

[Roguey]

Do a search for "Arkane System Shock".

Arkane is both in Texas and France. As I understood it, they have one of 'em pumping out a Dishonored sequel and the other on SS.

 

[Vibalist]

It really is kind of silly that all the powers are lethal

They are?

Bend Time, Blink, Possession, Agility and Void Vision all had plenty of non-lethal uses. Possession in particular struck me as being geared towards the pacifist/low casualty play-through.

 

[Morgoth]

I wouldn't mind a barebone sequel that only gives you blink and a blade. Nothing else.

 

[DalekFlay]

They are?

Bend Time, Blink, Possession, Agility and Void Vision all had plenty of non-lethal uses. Possession in particular struck me as being geared towards the pacifist/low casualty play-through.

I guess I meant the active ones. Possession and time stop still prove me wrong I guess. In the end my point is a lot of the fun things you want to mess with on a first playthrough get you yelled at and talked down to by the game.

 

[Vibalist]

They are?

Bend Time, Blink, Possession, Agility and Void Vision all had plenty of non-lethal uses. Possession in particular struck me as being geared towards the pacifist/low casualty play-through.

I guess I meant the active ones. Possession and time stop still prove me wrong I guess. In the end my point is a lot of the fun things you want to mess with on a first playthrough get you yelled at and talked down to by the game.

Yes. However, to me the story was never important enough that I actually cared that much. This is an individual thing of course, but if you really want to go for maximum carnage then my suggestion is to just go for it. Nevermind what the game says, really.

 

[DalekFlay]

Yes. However, to me the story was never important enough that I actually cared that much. This is an individual thing of course, but if you really want to go for maximum carnage then my suggestion is to just go for it. Nevermind what the game says, really.

Yeah, I did playthroughs in each style. I did a lethal backstab one, a balls-out action one and a no kills ghosting one. Each was fun and reactive for different reasons with the gameplay, which I really appreciated and loved the game for. The story stuff was 99% the same really, just a different tone when people talk to you and some added weepers on high chaos. In the end though this is what games need to be: gameplay interactivity and change, not story.

 

[Vibalist]

What are you complaining about, then?

 

[DalekFlay]

What are you complaining about, then?

Nothing really. I don't think they should dress you down about it so much, but I don't think it's a big deal.

I have said repeatedly Dishonored's only real problem is lack of difficulty.

 

[Tommy Wiseau]

It's a good game, but I'm personally not a fan of the binary outcomes (non-lethal vs. lethal). I decided to blow up the slaughterhouse, killed some butchers in the Knife of Dunwall (because they were sadistic chainsaw-wielding psychos) but avoided killing other NPCs. Still got the 'bad ending' due to high chaos. Hmm, and I thought I was playing as a 'good guy' well enough.

 

[Renegen]

I finally dove in to this game yesterday, completed the first mission. Now I'm sneaking about in the Overseer mission and I have to say that Blink is a true innovation in the genre. Dishonored at times shows its modern trappings, but not all things new are bad. Just a few months ago I played Thief 2 and I was surprised how many approaches failed because of the most minor of things, you misjudged how long it would take to walk to your target, you fail to jump properly over the marble floor during your approach, you pulled your weapon at the wrong time or even made an error in their patrol routes. Sometimes you even relied on trial and error to see what worked. It created gameplay that was very frequently interrupted by save/loads or by fails and there wasn't any way to recover either.

With Dishonored, you see an opportunity and can instantly go for it, the "mechanical" requirements to pull off the approach are almost eliminated, and if you ever make a mistake you can quickly get out of trouble. Although it makes the game easier in some ways, it makes the gameplay more fluid and more rewarding and they can focus the difficulty (in theory) somewhere else. Dark Vision despite how powerful it can be is another tool that is mainly used to create fluid gameplay and eliminate "load game" situations. I really like the thought put behind to make the 1st person stealth genre better, it's really something.

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

Renegen - I just finished playing through Thief 1-3 and The Knife of Dunwall + The Brigmore Witches in sequence and I'd say the connection between flow and difficulty is not really quite as straightforward. Thief has things that can initially "disrupt the flow of the game" simply because they take time to master (like estimating time to reach your target), which is not really a problem - the flow improves as you learn and so does player satisfaction (because you realize the smooth experience requires actual skill). Then there are things that are caused by sub-optimal controls (like having the jump and mantle actions bind to a single key which then works in a way extremely hard to predict accurately; the way rope arrows behave in the first game, etc.) or even bugs (like getting stuck in textures in Deadly Shadows). I agree that Dishonored handles the latter area better (although it does have its own issues, especially when you need to combine several special powers in an accurate manner) which results in better flow, but I also think it goes too far with how easy it tends to get even on the very hardest difficulty ("master assassin") with all the magic abilities at your disposal, because, for me at least, this takes away some of the enjoyment.

Having said that, I agree that the game is surprisingly good and I thought the two story-based DLCs in particular were actually better than Deadly Shadows. If Arkane go in that general direction, make the levels larger and ideally tone down the magic superpowers (although that one's unlikely), the sequel could be really great.

 

[Tommy Wiseau]

So, finally finished it. Really good, lots of replayability. Also fairly long if you don't just decide to breeze through the levels. Also,

Spoiler

DO YOU THINK YOU'LL GET YOUR OWN SQUAD AFTER WHAT HAPPENED LAST NIGHT??!?

 

[toro]

There is a big difference between Shalebridge Cradle and Brigmore Manor: you are never in real danger in Dishonored.

 

[DalekFlay]

Having said that, I agree that the game is surprisingly good and I thought the two story-based DLCs in particular were actually better than Deadly Shadows. If Arkane go in that general direction, make the levels larger and ideally tone down the magic superpowers (although that one's unlikely), the sequel could be really great.

All they need to do is nerf blink a little bit, I thought the others were fine. They could have it make a subtle noise so you can't use it right next to guards, for example. Or have it light you up for a moment after use. Something like that.

I disagree blink makes the game insanely easy. I quick-loaded a lot in my ghost playthrough especially. It is overpowered though, and there are common sense fixes for that.

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

There is a big difference between Shalebridge Cradle and Brigmore Manor: you are never in real danger in Dishonored.

Deadly Shadows itself is very easy in general, especially for veteran Thief players, but Shalebridge Cradle is for the most part even easier than that. The first part of the level has absolutely no real threat at all, the second part has easily avoidable zombies who are also very vulnerable to conveniently placed holy water and flash bombs, and the greater part of the final portion gives you a very large margin of error. Thus the only real sense of danger comes at the very end. (The structure of the mission is also a lot more forced than most, as it consists of fetching a series of things in a very particular order). The Cradle is good mainly for its atmosphere, but the sense of danger is mostly fake. The Brigmore Manor is by no means super-dangerous (nothing in Dishonored really is), but it has several spots where not being careful means instant death (at least on the highest difficulty).

Having said that, I agree that the game is surprisingly good and I thought the two story-based DLCs in particular were actually better than Deadly Shadows. If Arkane go in that general direction, make the levels larger and ideally tone down the magic superpowers (although that one's unlikely), the sequel could be really great.

All they need to do is nerf blink a little bit, I thought the others were fine. They could have it make a subtle noise so you can't use it right next to guards, for example. Or have it light you up for a moment after use. Something like that.

I disagree blink makes the game insanely easy. I quick-loaded a lot in my ghost playthrough especially. It is overpowered though, and there are common sense fixes for that.

Agreed with blink, although what I'm not sure about is whether Arkane are willing to apply those common sense fixes. The problem as I see it is not so much blink being overpowered as that it causes the game to be designed around it too heavily, to the point where it often becomes the only approach possible (especially when you're ghosting), which makes it a little boring.

 

[toro]

The first part of the level has absolutely no real threat at all

I don't think a first player will tell the same story. Fake sense of danger can be very effective if you don't know that is fake. LGS knew how to do it.

the second part has easily avoidable zombies who are also very vulnerable to conveniently placed holy water and flash bombs

I never knew this as I ghosted the entire level. However considering the differences between Garret and Corvo/Daud, those zombies were more lethal than the Dishonored counterparts.

... but the sense of danger is mostly fake

You can say this about any game.

Is true that the Dishonored's lore, story and mechanics are really good but none matters when they fail the most basic test: the game mechanics are flawed (the design around super-abilities).
Bottom line is that I could not enjoy Dishonored despite the fact that I wanted to enjoy it. And I mostly agree with you, except that I would never put any Dishonored experience above a Thief experience (unless the game design becomes superior in a sequel).

 

[DalekFlay]

Is true that the Dishonored's lore, story and mechanics are really good but none matters when they fail the most basic test: the game mechanics are flawed (the design around super-abilities).
Bottom line is that I could not enjoy Dishonored despite the fact that I wanted to enjoy it. And I mostly agree with you, except that I would never put any Dishonored experience above a Thief experience (unless the game design becomes superior in a sequel).

Are you saying ghosting Dishonored is no challenge at all?

If so, I bow to the god of stealth.

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

toro - I'm not going to argue about how you felt about the game and whether it was a challenge to you or not, that's subjective (I'm not a big fan of the superpowers, either, and I'm very partial to the Thief series, but I ghosted both Thief 3 and the Dishonored DLCs back to back and personally found the latter both more enjoyable and more challenging; nothing in Deadly Shadows came close to the final mission of the Knife of Dunwall in this respect, for example).

I still can't agree about the Shalebridge Cradle, though. You said there was no real danger in Dishonored. I'm assuming we're talking about how easy it is for the player character to die, which is the only reasonable measure I see here (few games threaten the life of the actual player). I'm not saying the Cradle can't be scary, especially the first time around, but that's just atmosphere. In fact, and I'm comparing the highest difficulty level for both games, I believe it's much easier to die in Brigmore Manor, as it has a lot of witches, hounds, plants and traps, most of which will kill Daud instantly or almost instantly, and many of which you need to be very careful to avoid without prior knowledge, especially if you're ghosting (plus the way to get rid of the hounds is not immediately obvious). The Cradle has a part where you cannot die at all, a part where you face zombies who have low sensory acuteness and are easy to avoid or kill (and at least one of which you do need to dispatch even when ghosting), a part where you're free to retry 10 times if you mess up, and a brief and by no means difficult part with actual danger; the overall margin of error is larger.

 

[bussinrounds]

Is this game decent/playable if you don't use any of the SUPA POWAZ ? Or is it basically designed around it ?

 

[potatojohn]

Yes, it's playable in theory.

 

[FuelBlooded]

It could be decent, but you have secret/optional areas which you can't access if you don't use blink.

 

[DalekFlay]

Is this game decent/playable if you don't use any of the SUPA POWAZ ? Or is it basically designed around it ?

You pretty much have to use the basic, non-enhanced blunk power. Other than that however it's completely doable, and there's even an achievement for finishing the game using no other power. I got that achievement during my non-lethal ghost run and even with using basic blink it could get pretty difficult. More difficult that a normal mode Thief playthrough, probably.

 

[toro]

Are you saying ghosting Dishonored is no challenge at all?
If so, I bow to the god of stealth.

I did not say that.

toro - I'm not going to argue about how you felt about the game and whether it was a challenge to you or not, that's subjective (I'm not a big fan of the superpowers, either, and I'm very partial to the Thief series, but I ghosted both Thief 3 and the Dishonored DLCs back to back and personally found the latter both more enjoyable and more challenging; nothing in Deadly Shadows came close to the final mission of the Knife of Dunwall in this respect, for example).

The question is this: Did you use Blink or not?

Because there is a big difference:
1) Pure stealth in Dishonored without Blink is more difficult that Thief. But this outcome is the result of a couple of retarded design decision: Day-Light thieving, primitive shadow stealth mechanics and combat-oriented gameplay.
2) Hybrid stealth in Dishonored with Blink is just a bad joke. You basically have the stealth paths embedded in the levels designs and they are as subtle as neon signs.

Pure stealth in Dishonored is like using stealth to finish a FPS shooter in a desperate way to fulfill your Taffer needs. Of course is difficult, just not for the right reasons.

 

[DalekFlay]

Pure stealth in Dishonored is like using stealth to finish a FPS shooter in a desperate way to fulfill your Taffer needs. Of course is difficult, just not for the right reasons.

The levels in Dishonored are designed for clear stealth pathways, this is true. The funny thing is to some people this is called "good level design." For others it makes the game too easy and sign-posted. Can't please everyone, I guess.

Don't get me wrong I completely understand your point. Having such clear proper stealth pathways makes the game feel almost linear, despite taking place in large open levels that put most modern games to shame. The trick is to have the paths less sign-posted and with tricky sections, which I do think the DLC does much more than the main game. The DLC from head to toe feels like the development team said "well they like the game, now let's make it proper challenging." It's quality content and gives me great hope for the future of the series.

 

[Infinitron]

GOTY version released: http://store.steampowered.com/sub/31292/