Divinity Divinity: Original Sin 2 - Definitive Edition

[Shadenuat]

Huh what? I don't think I've bought any equipment so far after like 30 hours. Everything was found as loot in secret locations, dropped by enemies or as quest rewards. And I certainly don't feel "under-equipped". I only buy skill books and (res. mostly)scrolls in shops

Suppose it's a swingy RNG thing because I've read multiple accounts of people raging that they have to go back to the store every time they level up.

(or perhaps they're just bad at playing, and need the stastical boost right away, either way)

No they're just in prologue which is smaller, better designed in terms of loot and is sorta level capped. Also the difference in power levels is higher the farer you are into the game. In Act 2 you can go a bit away from city and get your whole party one-shotted.

 

[Jimmious]

Huh what? I don't think I've bought any equipment so far after like 30 hours. Everything was found as loot in secret locations, dropped by enemies or as quest rewards. And I certainly don't feel "under-equipped". I only buy skill books and (res. mostly)scrolls in shops

Suppose it's a swingy RNG thing because I've read multiple accounts of people raging that they have to go back to the store every time they level up.

(or perhaps they're just bad at playing, and need the stastical boost right away, either way)

No they're just in prologue which is smaller, better designed in terms of loot and is sorta level capped. Also the difference in power levels in higher the farer you are into the game.

If the whole island of Fort Joy is just a prologue... Holy shit, how big is this fucking game? It'll take us 200 hours or sth

 

[Lacrymas]

If the whole island of Fort Joy is just a prologue... Holy shit, how big is this fucking game? It'll take us 200 hours or sth

You haven't played Soulbringer, then? In that game, when you are 20-25 hours in and it seems like it's going to wrap up and get to the ending, it turns out that culmination is the one to the prologue.

 

[Shadenuat]

Fort Joy is small area but it is packed with content. Act 2 is biggest in the game. Act 3 and 4 are as big as fort Joy technically, but there is actually very little of content there in comparison (just some terrible flat dungeons which you actually overlevel). Act 4 (Arx) is big city but there actually aren't that many quests around, and most of them are main quest related. You won't go 2 minutes into wilderness to suddenly find 10 quests there as compared to Fort joy or act 2.

Levels:
Leave Act 1 at level 8, that's final fight level.
I left Act 2 at level 17 or 18.
Starting encounters at Act 3 are level 16.
All enemies in Act 4 are capped at level 20, so is all unique equipment... with exception of shops where I found myself items for my level 21, and it's probably possible to get even to 22.

 

[Roguey]

Also, that Sawyer thing sounds interesting, got a quote where I can read more?

Came up during PoE's weapon durability controversy.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=13#post417097009

A lot of players have a preference for finding, rather than buying, rare/unique items in the world (e.g. many people responded negatively to unique items in IWD2's stores), which can result in a lot of money accumulation in the late game. The stronghold will be a good money sink, but a lot of people may choose to not do much with the stronghold, so there's no guarantee it will be a sink.
...
Additionally, we will still have the same problem we've had at the end of every IE games: if we put unique gear in stores, people complain that they don't want to buy gear in stores. If we put unique gear in dungeons, people have an excess of gold and complain that there's nothing to spend their gold on.

 

[Jimmious]

I think what Sawyer says is true but it has mainly to do with how vendors are in almost all CRPGs ever. They feel tremendously generic, almost like spreadsheets that you go through and pick stuff that have good stats.
If they actually made shops interesting and have them offer fewer but more unique items which they will talk about and so on, then buying stuff would be much more interesting

 

[Lacrymas]

I never thought buying unique items in stores was a problem, at least a fraction of them. Crossroad Keep had very cool and expensive items for sale once you upgraded/constructed some buildings. I remember the best shield in the game costing 100,000 gold from the Mage Tower. That reminds me of people "hating strongholds because they gate content", some people are weird, especially the ones Josh seems to design around.

 

[Jimmious]

Crossroad Keep is not the norm though. Generally most shopkeeperes are of the style: "Oh hello adventurer, here is a list of random shit I sell, scroll through it".
Even when once in a while there is a good item in there, I doesn't feel exciting because noone has talked about it and there is no context as in to how this random blacksmith has the SWORD OF DOOM in his inventory.
I would expect him to specifically talk about that if that's the case

 

[Infinitron]

What I think could be bothersome about item shops, especially in BG2 IIRC, is that you had to constantly keep in mind what items were available in them and what you could afford to buy as you planned and developed your character builds over the course of the game. Also, to avoid accidentally buying an inferior unique item of a given type in one shop when there's a better one available in another shop*. If you were a certain sort of OCD optimizing player, just running around between shops refreshing your memory before making a decision on what to buy could suck up a lot of your time.

*One thing I appreciated about PoE btw is that it seemed to avoid this.

 

[Lacrymas]

One of the Stalwart merchants from WM2, apart from unique things in general, has a soulbound weapon for sale (Twinsting?), so I don't think they follow their own advice :p

 

[cvv]

In a game with THIS much item inflation it'd be pretty hard to rely on drops. At the very minimum you have to buy a new weapon and a few pieces of armor every two levels if you want to stay in the game so to speak. Maybe you can jump a level 15 group with your level 12 gear and somehow autist it out in the course of a two hour fight but that's not how most people will play the game.

 

[Roguey]

I think what Sawyer says is true but it has mainly to do with how vendors are in almost all CRPGs ever. They feel tremendously generic, almost like spreadsheets that you go through and pick stuff that have good stats.
If they actually made shops interesting and have them offer fewer but more unique items which they will talk about and so on, then buying stuff would be much more interesting

I see two unresolved problems:

a) it still doesn't feel "earned" (e.g. the difference between catching a fish or hunting a deer and buying a fish or venison)
b) Verisimilitude-people raging about why these chumps have expensive magic items in the first place, unless it's specifically a high-end locale with the highest security

Josh (nor most developers) ever concern themselves with the latter though.

 

[Jimmious]

Yeah these two exactly.
Also the weapons bought from shops are not so memorable. It's different using the sword that you found in the lair of the dragon you killed and different using the one you bought from random blacksmith X after selling 100 trash items

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Also, that Sawyer thing sounds interesting, got a quote where I can read more?

Came up during PoE's weapon durability controversy.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=13#post417097009

A lot of players have a preference for finding, rather than buying, rare/unique items in the world (e.g. many people responded negatively to unique items in IWD2's stores), which can result in a lot of money accumulation in the late game. The stronghold will be a good money sink, but a lot of people may choose to not do much with the stronghold, so there's no guarantee it will be a sink.
...
Additionally, we will still have the same problem we've had at the end of every IE games: if we put unique gear in stores, people complain that they don't want to buy gear in stores. If we put unique gear in dungeons, people have an excess of gold and complain that there's nothing to spend their gold on.

Here's an idea... don't saturate the world with junk items to sell. I have found the games I have most enjoyed the itemization in are those with a limited in number of items but high in average usefulness.

 

[Lacrymas]

The first problem will be resolved by making money hard to come by or the items being very expensive compared to the coin availability in general. The second problem is easy, don't give shitty merchants items they can never afford.

 

[tripedal]

Has anyone figured out the phoenix egg?

 

[Infinitron]

Yeah these two exactly.
Also the weapons bought from shops are not so memorable. It's different using the sword that you found in the lair of the dragon you killed and different using the one you bought from random blacksmith X after selling 100 trash items

But returning to the subject, IMO in games with Diablo-style random itemization like this one, the items found and the items in shops are usually equally memorable, since they both come from the same RNG pit. You're just rolling the dice in a different place.

 

[Shadenuat]

Has anyone figured out the phoenix egg?

Eat it as Elf.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

King's Sword of Haste baby.

 

[cvv]

Has anyone figured out the phoenix egg?

I'm starting to think you really can either eat it and gain the Phoenix Dive skil (yaay) or just sell it for a few coins. I doubt there's anything more to it. (Later on you'll find a Phoenix Heart which seems to be the same deal).

 

[Lacrymas]

Some of them are memorable, the first example that pops into my mind is the Robe of Vecna. I already mentioned the shield from NWN2, but I also remember 2 unique kamas that are sold by merchants. I think it depends on item availability in general, as I seem to recall those being the only unique kamas in the game, and how expensive they are.

 

[Colour Spray]

I enjoyed it in Icewind Dale, at least. It gives you a side goal to work towards that has the advantage of foresight; allowing you to weigh your options and choose the item which fits your party the best. Although I guess IWD is unique in that it uses semi randomized loot kind've like diablo's unique treasure class loot tables.

 

[Fairfax]

I see two unresolved problems:

a) it still doesn't feel "earned" (e.g. the difference between catching a fish or hunting a deer and buying a fish or venison)
b) Verisimilitude-people raging about why these chumps have expensive magic items in the first place, unless it's specifically a high-end locale with the highest security

Josh (nor most develoeprs) ever concern themselves with the latter though.

MCA does.

 

[Shadenuat]

Yeah, shops like Fell's tatoo parlour are amazing. It even updates depending on what decisions you make during the game, who you meet or how you treat your companions.

But that's PST, it just universally had good design in terms of very-simulation-dude.

DOS2 doesn't make even little effort on the level of "find higher level bows and spears only in elf camp" or stuff like that, since shops just universally update every level.

 

[KateMicucci]

While I know you are being sarcastic, I want to address this. It's not more alluring, it becomes routine which makes it less appealing and simply grindy. It also fails to create any kind of structure to the itemization or anything to strive for, you know you are going to find the next best thing around the corner, so eh, you might not even bother because the corner after that will have even better shit. Randomness for the sake of randomness is not what the gambling mentality is (which this system is analogous to), it's the intent to find something specific that keeps the wheel turning, the same principle applies to Diablo-clones. Just MMO color-coding the items doesn't work, neither does the finite number of enemies which bar you from grinding and actually finding something usable, it's statistically possible to not find anything for you the whole game due to the finite mobs and the randomness. I guess that's why they deem it appropriate to constantly throw items in your face.

Swen strongly disagrees. He loves this stuff.

Which is why it's so incredibly odd that apparently D:OS2 changes the formula by severely limiting the loot that you find in the wild, forcing you to buy equipment in shop. Players hate buying weapons and armor in shops, as Josh Sawyer found out years ago.

I don't mind buying from shops except that I level up and my stuff is obsolete in 0-3 fights. In most games I never have a reason to buy stuff from shops, so it's an interesting change. Even so, the Diablo items and needing to constantly upgrade and switch around everyone's warddrobe is the part I like least about this game. In a game like Torchlight it's tedious enough to do it for one guy.