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DraQ

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Gender - This big, blue pac man is something that continues to surprise and concern us.

:hmmm: What a ridiculous thing to worry about when your company's making a profit.
This.

At this point I really just want to scream in Swen's face, nothing coherent, just
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Seriously, this sounds like the point where they start to wonder whether they uwittingly offend someone, start cutting down and backing out of things, and end up with bland, soulless, lukewarm shit (but hey, it's inoffensive!).

Fucking NO!
It shouldn't even be a thing they think about.

lar_q

Gaming has long catered to male audiences which in turn fostered certain trends in gaming. Whether desirable or not, Larian's games are situated somewhere on the current ends of those trends, are their products and neither those trends or current structure of gaming audiences won't go away in an instant just because someone wants them to. You can try to find your way from where you currently are, but you won't magically teleport somewhere else just because you don't like where you are. At best you will fall out of the tree if you cut your branch before you get off it.

Your current audiences are predominately male.
Your current genre is methodical genocide simulator, riddled with adolescent male fantasies, with some tentative aspirations to be something grander and more ambitious.
Your current track history involves subverting the genre's tropes for some brilliantly humorous, but ultimately affectionate pastiche.
This is what you have and this is what you need to work with.
If you want to change something, start with getting rid of the ridiculous chainmail bikins and combat stiletto heels, although arguably Larian is the single currently active company that is justified in using those - see the "pastiche" part.

Secondly, we don't really know where the current statistics actually comes from.
What if there are actual inborn statistical* differences in how male and female brain processes things? This view might currently be unpopular, but it isn't exactly absurd, there are enough differences in male and female roles that aren't completely arbitrary and determined only by culture that it might well be the case. Your pacman may not only fail to budge now, but also in any foreseeable future.

At best you may succeed at destroying what your current existing audience loves, without attracting much of anyone else - either because there isn't anyone to attract, or because you lack decades of incremental groundwork similar to that which has shaped your games for your current audiences.
You'll have thin sliver of yellow, thin sliver of blue (thin sliver of pink in between) and large black pacman of "former".
Yay, I guess?
Do note that I just said "statistically". For me it's the best counter against any sort of -ism. Whether or not some population is statistically different (smarter, dumber, has preference towards gaming or particular game genres, has preference towards particular occupations, etc.) from some other population is, in realistic circumstances completely irrelevant. On daily basis you're dealing with individuals, not "statistical members of population X", between groups of humans there is enough overlap, that statistical stereotyping is useless as soon as you get actual data about particular individual you're dealing with. As long as you have time and data to work with, your opinion on particular individual will work out better than statistical stereotype you could assign to them based on their group(s).
That's why -ism's are not just wrong morally, but first and foremost stupid from pragmatic POV.
 

DraQ

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methodical genocide simulator
this is beautiful
:salute:

Well, that's part of cRPGs that seems to vary the least.
I don't think even classical FPS games come close in that regard.
+M
TBH some change would be most welcome here - I have always called for alternative gameplay elements and character development not involving kill XP, among other things, for a reason - but you can't just rip something out without adequate replacement.
 

Aenra

Guest
DraQ fully agree with you :)
Have made similar comments myself, but in truth? I sincerely doubt the extent to which they can take them to heart, even if they too (Lar) stand behind them.. it is ultimately a matter of audience. And speaking of one?

I peruse Larian's forums daily. It's an exercise in frustration, but it helps when one needs the whole picture. Have a look and you'll understand:
- I cannot choose profile why!?!?!?!?! Halp!11 (he only HAS made one profile...i ask him, did you even try making a second one, see if you can switch then? ..silence/crickets. The fucktard cannot into basic thinking)
- I just started and i'm overwhelmed, it's so hard!!111 All them buttanz! Halp, gimme a build i can copy paste cause i r confuzed! Halp!
- I just logged into the starter beach, am clueless, but i HAVE to know why i can't reach the portal above me! Game sucks!
- I finished Cyseal and i can still occasionally die!! Die!111 Why!! /mememememe
- I want crafting but i don't want to work for it! Why no auto mode? Fail game, will tell all my friends in Steam it suckz

(i can post links; the above are not exaggerations)

Tell me how you can keep those MORONS paying while making a proper RPG. You can't.
And they have decided, long time ago, that they do want their money (larger and larger games, so that eventually they can fund their 'big' one). Bit of a paradox.

edit: Have warned them about this..there is no middle approach, not when the budget keeps getting larger and larger
 
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DeepOcean

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Developers are stupid, womin don't care into murdering stuff, too much work and risk, they offshored that stuff to men some thousand years ago and nowdays that major wars seem more unlikely, womin care even less about that stuff. Womin only cared if the men won or not, if they did, they could care less about the details. You can add as much unicorns, barbies, fully clothed, small breast ugly women and other cliches and they still won't care. Is the core of the game about killing stuff? They could care less. Developers waste too much time hearing feminists for what "women" want, because most women don't give a rat's ass for feminists on what they are supposed to like.

Most feminists insist on not believing on biological differences between women and men and assume women are just men that don't know better because "society" taught them into be womin. Trouble is, most women aren't trangenders or lesbians and the biological diferences aren't just a question of belief but hard data.

Developers stop annoying your male audience and stop being such a ridiculous pussies, doesn't matter how much of a pussy you are, most women won't care or be impressed by your cowardy. Want your female audience Larian? Please, google Kim Kardashian mobile game.
 

DraQ

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Tell me how you can keep those MORONS paying while making a proper RPG. You can't.
Scam? It's perfectly tailored to keep morons paying.
:troll:
But seriously, morons preorder, morons d1p, morons buy anything given sufficient hype, morons are incapable of learning - you make a game they won't like, they will buy it, complain while crying rivers and swearing they'll never buy anything from you and that they'll go with a hatchet after anyone they see trying, then they will get hyped for your next game and the cycle will keep rolling.

Is there really a problem?

Must people dumb enough to not be able to turn and seek another way once faced with a cliff with teleporter on top, butthurt and stumped by it enough to register on the forum to post about it, and dumb enough again to think anyone will actually care really be taken into account?
You can add as much unicorns, barbies, fully clothed, small breast ugly women and other cliches and they still won't care. Is the core of the game about killing stuff? They could care less.
And those that do care are already in this yellow sliver.
They are already interested and will probably be as put off by any barbies and rainbow-shitting unicorns as will the members of the blue pacman.
I know firsthand, my GF is like this - she can wipe the floor with me in Q3A and gives me murder-stares if I jokingly suggest that I buy her Sims.

Ok, admittedly I could go with fully clothed, normal-breasted women in muh games, but that's because I'm a huge sperg and:
  • stripperific outfits are not exactly common historically
  • stripperific outfits aren't exactly practical
  • especially as armor which generally needs to cover whatever it tries to protect
  • most women don't have massive bouncy boobs, especially without enhancements
  • huge bouncy boobs would really get in the way of any akshun heroine, badly
  • if you somehow manage to contrive a situation (other than the obvious "whore") where stripperific outfit would make perfect sense, chances are that actual nudity would work just as well and actually be less jarring.
Anyway, given that Larian seems disinterested in pursuing even this most obvious and least disagreeable avenue (which I can respect given how they weave the pastiche into they games and given how silly cliches are pastiche's lifeblood), why care at all? If you won't make the first step and know it why worry about the subsequent ones?
 

Aenra

Guest
Is there really a problem?

Yeah man, there is :)
The time can come when this backfires and it can do so in numerous ways. From the morans currently keeping Lar on 'their radar' getting 'discouraged', spewing their shit on forums, looking elsewhere and the studio's shrinking, all the way up to the Bioware phenomenon of track, sense and direction totally lost because 'fans'. It's not that simple.
More to the point? In DKS, we went from an easy 'meh' difficulty factor to an 'DC' edition that had gating, doors locking and unlocking on their own, voice overs warning you 'shit's about to go down' and so on. In D:OS we had the addition of quest markers, on top of yet again a bit of gating, a touch of the magically locked door variety, etc. Along with an obvious understanding from Swen's part that for these fucking MORONS, D:OS would feel hard. Do not underestimate that. It does not pinpoint Swen's knowing his tard audience, it speaks of a desire to cater to it. So when you see it in two games in a row? Myself, i'm making a note of it.
(you typed above 'who gives a fuck if they come in the forums and complain'. Well you read the above paragraph and tell me. Cause i do know who does)

You cannot expect to constantly be capable of attracting larger and larger an audience without making compromises DraQ, just won't work that way. So for me, it does remain a cause of concern.
Now that said, we will see where we are when D:OS II is out. For me that's their test of fire. Zero excuses this time around and they know it. I hope for the best, but discount no scenario :)
 

flyingjohn

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Actually larian could easily continue to do this for years without sacrificing quality(quality in larian terms not in codex terms)
Consider this,most gamers don't even play most of the games they buy(let alone finish),they buy games based on popularity and peer pressure.
So if larian can keep making these games while advocating these are "hardcore old skool" rpgs it will attract the causal rpg crowd who wanna be labeled "hardcore".
Imagine this scenario:
Random bioware fan buys his new divinity game which is labeled old skool by pr(both youtubers and journalists).
He plays the game on easiest difficulty,barely beats 1/3 of the game and then just abandons it so he can feel like a "hardcore" rpg fan.
If he tries to complain about difficulty he gets shut down by other casual rpg fans who don't wanna be labeled casuals.

As long as we get good games like divinity os, i don't see a problem.
And adding more content instead of cutting is going to be welcomed by both sides.
 

Aenra

Guest
You all talk theory, i talk historical practice. And practice if we count the last few decades shows some very concrete facts regarding expanding audiences, or if you will, quality vs quantity.
You (again in plural [how ..rich.. the English langue, alas]) also seem to neglect how this is all by necessity rather than choice a publisher-free endeavour. We have infinite fuckheads in this site as well, pretending to be uber hardcore in posting, but anything but in reality. When the time comes to KS a third title, these people may or may not decide to pledge according to what they have experienced thus far and what the studio's direction is promised to be.
We also have the quite logical, irrespective of preferences, reaction of "i barely played this/could not hope to ever finish it, so why the fuck would i pledge to them again". See implementation of quest markers.. gating.. et al. Somehow however, these do not worry you, right? You do not see an indirect statement lurking somewhere in there?
We are thus far in something of a "middle road" approach, where both sides can view future products as something of interest to them. It is a subtle balance that may or may not be maintained, hence my saying 'test of fire' above. And mind you, said balance standing as things are.

Wanting more money for an even bigger product entails a broader audience. Today, said broader audience will have angry joe living at momma's home and a million other fuckheads pretty much showcasing the entire game in advance. Fuckheads or not, they will know whether this is for them or not. They will also have (you also neglect to factor this in) a first-hand experience with Lar's previous titles and be in a postion to compare. So making one side happier may well result to alienating the other, when we all accept Lar will need both. Change of plans notwithstanding. See: 'The Big One'.

Last but not least, pledging for oh i don't know, say SitS yeah? Is something i can see myself, the "RPG starved" grown-up doing. A fifteen year old playing 9/10 of his games torrented because credit card=mommy? What must you do to convince him to pledge? Surely not keep him under the impression that it will be too 'hard' for him? That it will be a waste of his money? He counts it you know. They probably allow him an 'x' monthly amount, the rest he torrents. If not all.. And you do need said teen. It's how you expand. You got your middle-aged closet lords already. More means younger. Period.

Balance. I find it too easy and too early for grand reassurances :)
 
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LESS T_T

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Codex 2014
Swen's PC Gamer Weekender talk (D:OS 2 Development Update) will starts in less than 4 hours.

Looks like PC Gamer's livesrtream will not stream any talk, instead they will do a show consist of half-hour interviews and demos. And what's worse, there's no Swen interview in the schedule. :argh:
 

pakoito

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Thomas the kickstarter guy has a girlfriend now, that's all I got. Maybe I'll ask him what love is.
 
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Ask him about how things have come along with the writing team and Chris.
Ask about the amount of humor in the sequel when its supposed to be darker.
 

pakoito

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Ask if they have made any decision about letting the player create all four party members.
As of right now you can, only on multiplayer, and one player is the main driver, as in DOS. Subject to change etc.
Ask him about how things have come along with the writing team and Chris.
Ask about the amount of humor in the sequel when its supposed to be darker.
Chris is more involved than expected, and one of the answers I missed said that we has actually improving other writer's ideas because they've done before on A or B game.
 

pakoito

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pakoito Did you notice if there was anybody else recording this? An official recording, perhaps?
I approached Swen after it and asked whether he wanted my recording, so I guess there isn't an official one. I looked around and didn't see any cameras recording either, that's why I decided to pull up my phone and do it.

Holding my low spec Xiaomi for 30 minutes didn't yield the best video quality, I know :(

EDIT: Video 3 is available now too. That's the one with the Codex questions.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Lame. I imagine there'll be a writeup about it at PC Gamer at least.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Chris is more involved than expected

That's so Chris. Once he starts, he can't stop.

Until getting shut down by a project director, of course. Do Larian have such figures? Inb4 Durance Extreme Edition, a companion with twenty times more content than every other character in the game
 

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