Do you consider Disco Elysium an RPG?

[luj1]

Dice rolls and stats don't make something into an RPG.

Monopoly has dice rolls. Stats are just stats.

RPG is a certain game format. It is closest to small-scale fantasy wargaming.

 

[bionicman]

 

[Vic]

it seems that by majority vote the codex does not consider disco elysium to be an RPG, interesting, but not surprising.

So can this game be banned from any future codex top rpg lists?

 

[luj1]

it seems that by majority vote the codex does not consider disco elysium to be an RPG, interesting, but not surprising.

So can this game be banned from any future codex top rpg lists?

Make sure to also ban popamoles.

 

[Catacombs]

This shit again?

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Disco Elysium has neither combat nor exploration, and therefore is missing two of the three fundamental components (or sets of components) that define the RPG genre. It does borrow from RPGs character customization, in the form of attributes/skills that are utilized by the game, and character progression, in the form of experience that allows the player-character to gain levels and thereby increase said attributes/skills. However, vast numbers of computer games from various genres borrow these same elements, and in Disco Elysium the effects of these differences in character customization and development reside chiefly in the realm of providing the player with more or different flavor text. Moreover, Disco Elysium minimizes game mechanics in favor of extensive scripting, as is the case of the two pseudo-combats with Measurehead and the Tribunal, and the only "exploration" consists of moving the player-character around a relatively small area.

Though Disco Elysium isn't an adventure game, either, as in particular it lacks the puzzles that are vital to the adventure genre. Really, it's a digitized CYOA or gamebook.

The term for it is "Visual Novel." A format commonly used in Japan to present pornographic cartoons.

 

[Vic]

what format in Japan is not commonly used to present pornographic cartoons?

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

It's a menu game.

They were tempted by the prospect of producing a sequel to the menu game.

finally, a journalist who writes the truth

 

[Vic]

if you summon rusty then this thread will turn into 10 pages by tomorrow

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

if you summon rusty then this thread will turn into 10 pages by tomorrow

Well... shitty threads need shit-posters.

 

[Serus]

it seems that by majority vote the codex does not consider disco elysium to be an RPG, interesting, but not surprising.

So can this game be banned from any future codex top rpg lists?

No because we have a lot of other titles where the cRPG status is dubious at best. They still make into the top lists*. Trying to decide on every single case would be pointless not to mention impossible. We don't even have an answer the THE question: "What is an rpg?" that we can agree on. It would produce wonderful drama though.

*I always facepalm when Star Control 2 makes it to a list. Being a very good game doesn't make one a cRPG. But let people vote it if they want. The only problem arises if such game makes its the way to the top but what can you do.

This has been debated several times before but its a good topic and still interesting

No I dont consider it a normal RPG, its an adventure game to me with RP elements. But its like asking is Kings Quest an RPG?

I think you mreant Quest for Glory series. King's Quest series were typical sierra's point and click adventure games afaik.

 

[Harthwain]

let's settle this once and for all then.

Feeling optimistic today? This is the Codex - the struggle is eternal.

However, vast numbers of computer games from various genres borrow these same elements, and in Disco Elysium the effects of these differences in character customization and development reside chiefly in the realm of providing the player with more or different flavor text.

"Different flavor text" is indeed the bane of almost all hand-crafted narrative-driven cRPGs.

Disco Elysium has neither combat nor exploration, and therefore is missing two of the three fundamental components (or sets of components) that define the RPG genre.

Does combat define the RPG genre though? To me combat isn't genre-defining as much as a necessary tool, existing alongside other necessary tools. Because you need combat to resolve conflicts. That's pretty much it. Using a dungeon crawler as an example of an RPG (which I think you're doing) is misleading, because a dungeon crawler is merely a type scenario in a role-playing game. This is like to say that Diablo is a true cRPG, when there are dozens of different takes on the genre.

 

[luj1]

It's a menu game.

 

[Delterius]

It does borrow from RPGs character customization, in the form of attributes/skills that are utilized by the game, and character progression, in the form of experience that allows the player-character to gain levels and thereby increase said attributes/skills.

hear me out

adventure games are about mastery of the environment

rpg games are about mastery of character building. thats what rpg combat tests for the most part.

if you can have action-adventure (action game with exploration)

why not rpg-adventure (character building game of navigating an environment/story)

 

[jimster]

Without combat, what roles can characters play in it?

 

[Old Hans]

this game doesnt even have color coded loot, like a real rpg. how im I supposed to know which hat is the best hat

 

[ropetight]

this game doesnt even have color coded loot, like a real rpg. how im I supposed to know which hat is the best hat

The one that fits your current gender expression and cultural heritage, of course.

 

[Delterius]

Without combat, what roles can characters play in it?

cook, poker master, anxiety issues

 

[WhiteShark]

An RPG need not force the player to do combat to be an RPG, but combat must be an option. Take note, as well, that anybody arguing for the necessity of combat isn't advocating for a flavorful narrative description of combat but for a combat system, a consistent tool by which the player can interact with the game world.

The wargaming roots and history of RPGs is one argument for combat, but I think there's another. One of the tasks of an RPG is to simulate a fictional environment, to seamlessly mesh setting with mechanics, and to place the player there as a free agent, or at least as free as can be accomplished in a video game. A staple of many a beloved RPG is the ability to travel and interact with the world as one pleases. Combat is, ultimately, a primal sort of interaction, and one common to nearly any setting containing two or more beings, or at least any setting that has relevance to humans. If combat is a primal, if not the primal, method of interaction (and certainly the easiest to represent in a video game), and if free interaction is core to what it means to be an RPG, then it seems clear that you cannot have an RPG without combat.

This is why the ability to kill NPCs is a decent litmus test for an RPG. Most people, in my experience, do not genocide NPCs. Most people, in my experience, will not, in fact, kill any NPCs unless attacked first. It's generally enough to know that one can, to know that the game respects your freedom insofar as it is able. In parallel, the ability to bypass hostilities only carries weight when you know that combat is on the table. There's no tension when your character is sneaking around unless getting caught could land you in deadly peril. The decision whether to bribe hostile thugs to leave you alone only becomes significant when one must weigh it against the cost of fighting them. Therefore combat both offers freedom directly and gives meaning to other sorts of interaction indirectly.

Disco Elysium doesn't have combat in the true sense. It has scripted events and dice rolls that offer different varieties of fluff. It may even be very good fluff! But quality is not what makes a game an RPG, and it is more taxonomically correct to call Disco Elysium a visual novel than it is to call it an RPG.

 

[The_Mask]

No combat
No sale

And if you tell me that one event at the end with the gun is "combat" please take a bath with your toaster.

I died 5 times in a row reaching for a tie, and then 5 more sitting in a chair. That's a total of 10 deaths, okay?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

There seems to be more than one adventure game with RPG elements:

* "Disco Elysium"
* "Pentiment"
* "Quest for Glory"
* "Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis" (It has combat in places)
* Etc.

How about we decide what mechanics are essential to an RPG and how well represented they are, and then decide what kind of RPG it is?

For example, a game with RPG elements not defined as an RPG by its creator is not an RPG.
Easy as fuck!

Another example might be a dubious game that contains RPG elements but is labeled as an RPG by its creator.

Here we could add adjectives like:

* wRPG = weak RPG
* fRPG = Fake RPG
* pRPG = pseudo RPG
* lRPG = light RPG
* etc.

E.g. I would refer to Pentiment as nRPG = no RPG

We've had interminable discussions about the definition of the RPG genre; the best definition is based on three essential sets of components: characters, combat, and exploration. More precisely, we could define the crucial individual elements within those sets of components:
1. Character Progression (leveling up to become more powerful)
2. Character Customization (at least classes and attributes, though classes can be replaced by a skill-based system; party customization can substitute)
3. Equipment (weapon, armor, other things that give active or passive benefits; better equipment makes a character more powerful)
4. Inventory (items on hand that can be switched with equipment or consumed)
5. Character-Skill-Based (player chooses character’s action, but success of character’s actions depends on statistics and the game system, not the action of the player)
6. Deliberation (player has opportunity to consider character’s actions before choosing what to do; in real-time games at least a pause function)
7. Randomness (dice-rolls or something else to remove determinism)
8. Statistics (game system is coherent and transparent enough that player can weigh the numbers to gauge the chance of success in an action)
9. Exploration (Player has control over character’s movement through the gamespace and can make meaningful exploration decisions rather than follow linear path)
10. Dungeons (a mythic underworld to explore; many RPGs have only a dungeon without an overworld, but it is more difficult to be an RPG with an overworld but no dungeons)
11. Openness (players have control over their characters’ movements and objectives in the world rather than being forced into particular quests; difficult in CRPGs and fairly rare)
12. Logistics (players must manage their characters’ resources, due to inventory limitations, encumbrance, stamina/fatigue, need for food, need for water, need for sleep, realistic lighting and a day/night cycle, Vancian magic memorization, weapon/armor deterioration and repair, etc.)


Just as RPGs can be categorized by major subgenres, we can also identify RPG-adjacent genres of games, which have similarity with RPGs but are clearly distinct.

Major RPG Subgenres:

1. Rogue-likes: Rogue (1980), Telengard (1982), Nethack (1987), Ancient Domains of Mystery (1994)
2. Turn-Based Blobbers: Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (1981), Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge (1990), Might & Magic: World of Xeen (1994), Grimoire: Winged Heralds of the Exemplar (2017)
3. Garriot-likes: Ultima III: Exodus (1983), Ultima IV: The Quest of the Avatar (1985), Ultima VII: The Black Gate (1992)
4. Real-Time Blobbers: Dungeon Master (1987) & Chaos Strikes Back (1989), Legend of Grimrock (2012) & Legend of Grimrock II (2014), Eye of the Beholder (1991), Black Crypt (1992)
5. Tactical RPG: Pool of Radiance (1988), Death Knights of Krynn (1991), and other Gold Box games, Wizard’s Crown (1986), Perihelion (1993)
6. Underworld-likes: Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992), UU II: The Labyrinth of Worlds (1993), The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall (1996), King’s Field IV: The Ancient City (2002)
7. JRPG: Final Fantasy VI (1994), Final Fantasy IV (1991), Final Fantasy IX (2000), Planescape: Torment (1999)
8. C&C: Fallout (1997), Fallout 2 (1998), Arcanum (2001), Age of Decadence (2015)
9. Open World RPGs: The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (2002), The Faery Tale Adventure (1986), Fallout: New Vegas (2010), Kingdom Come: Deliverance (2018)
10. Action RPG: Dragon’s Dogma: Dark Arisen (2012/2013), Demon’s Souls (2009), Dark Souls (2011), Salt & Sanctuary (2016)

RPG-Adjacent Genres:

1. Squad-based Tactics w/RPG elements: Jagged Alliance 2 (1999), X-Com (1994), Final Fantasy Tactics (1997), Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children (2020)
2. Strategy w/RPG elements: Heroes of Might & Magic II (1996) and other HoMM games, Sword of Aragon (1989)
3. Adventure w/RPG elements: Quest for Glory (1990) and sequels
4. Beat-‘em-ups w/RPG elements: Dragon’s Crown (2013), Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom (1994) / Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara (1996)
5. Action w/RPG elements: Deus Ex (2000), Blade of Darkness (2001), NieR: Automata (2017), Bloodstained (2019)
6. MMORPGs: Everquest (1997), Ultima Online (1998)
7. Person Simulator: Alter Ego (1986), Princess Maker (1991) series, Wonder Project J (1994)
8. Gamebooks: Warlock of Firetop Mountain (2016), Disco Elysium (2019)

Disco Elysium is yet another example of a CYOA with RPG elements, which is to say a gamebook.

 

[Cryomancer]

Is a visual novel plus.

 

[ropetight]

We've had interminable discussions about the definition of the RPG genre; the best definition is based on three essential sets of components: characters, combat, and exploration. More precisely, we could define the crucial individual elements within those sets of components:
1. Character Progression (leveling up to become more powerful)
2. Character Customization (at least classes and attributes, though classes can be replaced by a skill-based system; party customization can substitute)
3. Equipment (weapon, armor, other things that give active or passive benefits; better equipment makes a character more powerful)
4. Inventory (items on hand that can be switched with equipment or consumed)
5. Character-Skill-Based (player chooses character’s action, but success of character’s actions depends on statistics and the game system, not the action of the player)
6. Deliberation (player has opportunity to consider character’s actions before choosing what to do; in real-time games at least a pause function)
7. Randomness (dice-rolls or something else to remove determinism)
8. Statistics (game system is coherent and transparent enough that player can weigh the numbers to gauge the chance of success in an action)
9. Exploration (Player has control over character’s movement through the gamespace and can make meaningful exploration decisions rather than follow linear path)
10. Dungeons (a mythic underworld to explore; many RPGs have only a dungeon without an overworld, but it is more difficult to be an RPG with an overworld but no dungeons)
11. Openness (players have control over their characters’ movements and objectives in the world rather than being forced into particular quests; difficult in CRPGs and fairly rare)
12. Logistics (players must manage their characters’ resources, due to inventory limitations, encumbrance, stamina/fatigue, need for food, need for water, need for sleep, realistic lighting and a day/night cycle, Vancian magic memorization, weapon/armor deterioration and repair, etc.)


Just as RPGs can be categorized by major subgenres, we can also identify RPG-adjacent genres of games, which have similarity with RPGs but are clearly distinct.

Major RPG Subgenres:

1. Rogue-likes: Rogue (1980), Telengard (1982), Nethack (1987), Ancient Domains of Mystery (1994)
2. Turn-Based Blobbers: Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (1981), Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge (1990), Might & Magic: World of Xeen (1994), Grimoire: Winged Heralds of the Exemplar (2017)
3. Garriot-likes: Ultima III: Exodus (1983), Ultima IV: The Quest of the Avatar (1985), Ultima VII: The Black Gate (1992)
4. Real-Time Blobbers: Dungeon Master (1987) & Chaos Strikes Back (1989), Legend of Grimrock (2012) & Legend of Grimrock II (2014), Eye of the Beholder (1991), Black Crypt (1992)
5. Tactical RPG: Pool of Radiance (1988), Death Knights of Krynn (1991), and other Gold Box games, Wizard’s Crown (1986), Perihelion (1993)
6. Underworld-likes: Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992), UU II: The Labyrinth of Worlds (1993), The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall (1996), King’s Field IV: The Ancient City (2002)
7. JRPG: Final Fantasy VI (1994), Final Fantasy IV (1991), Final Fantasy IX (2000), Planescape: Torment (1999)
8. C&C: Fallout (1997), Fallout 2 (1998), Arcanum (2001), Age of Decadence (2015)
9. Open World RPGs: The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (2002), The Faery Tale Adventure (1986), Fallout: New Vegas (2010), Kingdom Come: Deliverance (2018)
10. Action RPG: Dragon’s Dogma: Dark Arisen (2012/2013), Demon’s Souls (2009), Dark Souls (2011), Salt & Sanctuary (2016)

RPG-Adjacent Genres:

1. Squad-based Tactics w/RPG elements: Jagged Alliance 2 (1999), X-Com (1994), Final Fantasy Tactics (1997), Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children (2020)
2. Strategy w/RPG elements: Heroes of Might & Magic II (1996) and other HoMM games, Sword of Aragon (1989)
3. Adventure w/RPG elements: Quest for Glory (1990) and sequels
4. Beat-‘em-ups w/RPG elements: Dragon’s Crown (2013), Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom (1994) / Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara (1996)
5. Action w/RPG elements: Deus Ex (2000), Blade of Darkness (2001), NieR: Automata (2017), Bloodstained (2019)
6. MMORPGs: Everquest (1997), Ultima Online (1998)
7. Person Simulator: Alter Ego (1986), Princess Maker (1991) series, Wonder Project J (1994)
8. Gamebooks: Warlock of Firetop Mountain (2016), Disco Elysium (2019)

Disco Elysium is yet another example of a CYOA with RPG elements, which is to say a gamebook.

This is the best explanation/definition of RPGs I encountered so far.

 

[Vic]

We've had interminable discussions about the definition of the RPG genre; the best definition is based on three essential sets of components: characters, combat, and exploration. More precisely, we could define the crucial individual elements within those sets of components:
1. Character Progression (leveling up to become more powerful)
2. Character Customization (at least classes and attributes, though classes can be replaced by a skill-based system; party customization can substitute)
3. Equipment (weapon, armor, other things that give active or passive benefits; better equipment makes a character more powerful)
4. Inventory (items on hand that can be switched with equipment or consumed)
5. Character-Skill-Based (player chooses character’s action, but success of character’s actions depends on statistics and the game system, not the action of the player)
6. Deliberation (player has opportunity to consider character’s actions before choosing what to do; in real-time games at least a pause function)
7. Randomness (dice-rolls or something else to remove determinism)
8. Statistics (game system is coherent and transparent enough that player can weigh the numbers to gauge the chance of success in an action)
9. Exploration (Player has control over character’s movement through the gamespace and can make meaningful exploration decisions rather than follow linear path)
10. Dungeons (a mythic underworld to explore; many RPGs have only a dungeon without an overworld, but it is more difficult to be an RPG with an overworld but no dungeons)
11. Openness (players have control over their characters’ movements and objectives in the world rather than being forced into particular quests; difficult in CRPGs and fairly rare)
12. Logistics (players must manage their characters’ resources, due to inventory limitations, encumbrance, stamina/fatigue, need for food, need for water, need for sleep, realistic lighting and a day/night cycle, Vancian magic memorization, weapon/armor deterioration and repair, etc.)


Just as RPGs can be categorized by major subgenres, we can also identify RPG-adjacent genres of games, which have similarity with RPGs but are clearly distinct.

Major RPG Subgenres:

1. Rogue-likes: Rogue (1980), Telengard (1982), Nethack (1987), Ancient Domains of Mystery (1994)
2. Turn-Based Blobbers: Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (1981), Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge (1990), Might & Magic: World of Xeen (1994), Grimoire: Winged Heralds of the Exemplar (2017)
3. Garriot-likes: Ultima III: Exodus (1983), Ultima IV: The Quest of the Avatar (1985), Ultima VII: The Black Gate (1992)
4. Real-Time Blobbers: Dungeon Master (1987) & Chaos Strikes Back (1989), Legend of Grimrock (2012) & Legend of Grimrock II (2014), Eye of the Beholder (1991), Black Crypt (1992)
5. Tactical RPG: Pool of Radiance (1988), Death Knights of Krynn (1991), and other Gold Box games, Wizard’s Crown (1986), Perihelion (1993)
6. Underworld-likes: Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992), UU II: The Labyrinth of Worlds (1993), The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall (1996), King’s Field IV: The Ancient City (2002)
7. JRPG: Final Fantasy VI (1994), Final Fantasy IV (1991), Final Fantasy IX (2000), Planescape: Torment (1999)
8. C&C: Fallout (1997), Fallout 2 (1998), Arcanum (2001), Age of Decadence (2015)
9. Open World RPGs: The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (2002), The Faery Tale Adventure (1986), Fallout: New Vegas (2010), Kingdom Come: Deliverance (2018)
10. Action RPG: Dragon’s Dogma: Dark Arisen (2012/2013), Demon’s Souls (2009), Dark Souls (2011), Salt & Sanctuary (2016)

RPG-Adjacent Genres:

1. Squad-based Tactics w/RPG elements: Jagged Alliance 2 (1999), X-Com (1994), Final Fantasy Tactics (1997), Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children (2020)
2. Strategy w/RPG elements: Heroes of Might & Magic II (1996) and other HoMM games, Sword of Aragon (1989)
3. Adventure w/RPG elements: Quest for Glory (1990) and sequels
4. Beat-‘em-ups w/RPG elements: Dragon’s Crown (2013), Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom (1994) / Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara (1996)
5. Action w/RPG elements: Deus Ex (2000), Blade of Darkness (2001), NieR: Automata (2017), Bloodstained (2019)
6. MMORPGs: Everquest (1997), Ultima Online (1998)
7. Person Simulator: Alter Ego (1986), Princess Maker (1991) series, Wonder Project J (1994)
8. Gamebooks: Warlock of Firetop Mountain (2016), Disco Elysium (2019)

Disco Elysium is yet another example of a CYOA with RPG elements, which is to say a gamebook.

This is the best explanation/definition of RPGs I encountered so far.

yet still flawed

 

[Hammer Of The Heretics]

Where do the isometric games (BG, IWD, PoE, DOS, etc) fit into your taxonomy? Do they get their own category or go into one of the ones you listed? If the latter, which one? Garriot-likes seems like the closest fit but there are a lot of differences in presentation and world interactivity.