I don't understand why you're being hostile
You think this is hostile?
or why you'd believe my statement of an RPG not being a CYOA means I have no idea.
Because it is an obvious attempt at avoiding the question.
Definitions/terms change, regardless of if we like or agree with those changes. What something means is often subjective. If you want an actually definition, we could try to actually make a definition. We could approach it in two ways. First, how were RPGs created and what were they created to do? From my understanding, they evolved from wargames, and were meant to allow one or a small group of people to create characters defined primarily by non-ambiguous numbers, and the reasons for those numbers were almost exclusively combat, and allow these characters to have an adventure, with conflict and agency a main element of these adventures.
So, we have a system evolved from exclusively combat games (wargaming), with almost all TTRPGs and their rulebooks, handbooks, and supplemental materials (even item books like Encyclopedia Magicka) being combat focused. Until pretty recently in the life of TTRPGs there were no system that did not allow combat.
So, logically and rationally, by Disco Elysium not allowing combat, it cannot be an RPG, by definition, due to all the above points.
I knew you'd try that. Two counterpoints:
1) Just because RPGs evolved from wargames and had combat at the forefront doesn't mean they didn't evolve past being strictly combat-focused. This is why the "evolution from wargames" doesn't hold up - because you conveniently stop at the point where it's favourable to you and don't look further. But the evolution doesn't work like that.
In other words: yes, RPGs did evolve from wargames, but they aren't wargames nor they have to be about murderhobos anymore. You can have - in this day and age - an RPG session with minimal combat. Or even no combat at all. The reason Disco is light on combat stems from different reasons than its RPG roots (and is something I tend to criticize myself, a lot).
2) Disco Elysium allows combat. It is simply handled the same way everything else is: via stats and choices. And stats and choices lie at the core of RPG decision-making and resolving all issues. So, logically and rationally, Disco Elysium is an RPG, by definition, due to all the above points.
Second approach (and weaker approach) - would Disco Elysium play much differently if most of the RPG-elements were removed? I think this is unambiguously a no, because it was never a focus of the game. Instead, at the beginning of the game, you could have three questions and no numbers, telling the player what kind of character he is, and remove all the numbers, and the clothing options, and the game would still be loved by all the people that loved it, and disliked by all the players that dislike it, and still ignored by all the players that never heard of it. An actual CYOA book could be made of the game, and it would provide the same experience the game did, because at its heart, the game is a narrative adventure, with choices, not an RPG.
Bullshit.
Stats (aka "RPG-elements") are exactly what makes the game an RPG: if you throw away what makes your character, then you don't have an RPG anymore. And we're not just talking about "you have more HP" or "you can use a heavier weapon". We're talking about an integral element of character's psychique/physique that impacts how he can interact with the environment (including what kind of input you can get in the first place).
To make it even funnier - by removal of stats you'd make Planescape: Torment worse game also, despite it having more "systems" (if we can count "magic", "stealth" and "stealth" as separate "systems" to begin with). This is because Intelligence and Wisdom play vital role in governing what your character (and not you) is able to comprehend. It is by no means a perfect system (Disco did this better, in my opinion), but it's way better than stats having absolutely no bearing what your character can say or do. This is why games like Disco Elysium, Planescape: Torment or Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura are at the top of my personal cRPG list.
No one loves Disco Elysium for its rich and crunchy RPG system. They either love it as a CYOA and narrative despite the RPG stuff, or like it a little more than they otherwise would've due to the RPG stuff. So if the RPG stuff is not integral to the experience, how is it primarily an RPG?
Again; this is a load of bullshit.
A plenty of people love Disco Elysium BECAUSE of its RPG system. Yes, there are choices and narrative (and they are great, for most part), but RPG elements are very well integrated together. This means the RPG stuff is, well, INTEGRAL to the experience.
So, those are two ways I've partially defined an RPG, by exclusion and inclusion. I'd like to hear your thoughts and your definition.
Well, first of all - anything derived from an RPG is, by extension, an RPG itself. So by being, essentially, a translation from PnP RPG Disco Elysium is a computer version of an RPG. Which is further supported by its design, meaning it is not an RPG just in name.
Secondly - an RPG must have a player-character and it has to allow that player-character to interact with the world. Stats are the most obvious ways to do that. They also allow to differentiate between characters. Disco Elysium does this extremely well, because player's stats play a vital role in something as basic as the transmission of information: you only know what your character can know and that's governed by his stats (and rolls). Then what you can do with the information you've obtained depends, once more, on your character: creating favourable circumstances, his stats, items, etc.
Frankly, I would be hard-pressed to find another game (save for Arcanum) where who you are literally defines you as a character. Even Planescape: Torment is lighter in this aspect (of information transmission), and more suiting as the object of your attempted criticism here. I mean, there is no real difference between a mage and a warrior in Torment, aside from one using flashy spells instead of hard objects in, oh-so-vaunted, combat. The key difference are the interactions with the NPCs. Which are, again, defined by character's stats.
We can disagree, especially when it comes to definitions, since definitions literally are democratic (look up the new definition of literally for an example), but I honestly don't understand the hostility. I'm more than happy to discuss this with you, but how does name calling or hostility help at all? I respect you, and your views, and I hope we can be friends.
There is no hostility. If I come of as hostile it may be because I am being blunt and don't mince words (too much), but that's not the same as being hostile.
Are you retartet or something? DE has no hard checks.
You can redo certain skill checks by leveling up a skill, so I can understand keeping a skill point in reserve. The downside to this is you're missing out on background skillchecks and you don't have your skills at highest possible level when attempting a non-repeatable skill check.
DE emulate RPG experience therefore it's cRPG, couldn't be more simple. And yet… Guess that's why I love this place after all. Amazing.
Indeed. It is amazing how something so obvious could be so contested. Especially here, of all places.
