Do you consider Disco Elysium an RPG?

[Tony]

I don't understand why you're being hostile

You think this is hostile?

or why you'd believe my statement of an RPG not being a CYOA means I have no idea.

Because it is an obvious attempt at avoiding the question.

Definitions/terms change, regardless of if we like or agree with those changes. What something means is often subjective. If you want an actually definition, we could try to actually make a definition. We could approach it in two ways. First, how were RPGs created and what were they created to do? From my understanding, they evolved from wargames, and were meant to allow one or a small group of people to create characters defined primarily by non-ambiguous numbers, and the reasons for those numbers were almost exclusively combat, and allow these characters to have an adventure, with conflict and agency a main element of these adventures.

So, we have a system evolved from exclusively combat games (wargaming), with almost all TTRPGs and their rulebooks, handbooks, and supplemental materials (even item books like Encyclopedia Magicka) being combat focused. Until pretty recently in the life of TTRPGs there were no system that did not allow combat.

So, logically and rationally, by Disco Elysium not allowing combat, it cannot be an RPG, by definition, due to all the above points.

I knew you'd try that. Two counterpoints:

1) Just because RPGs evolved from wargames and had combat at the forefront doesn't mean they didn't evolve past being strictly combat-focused. This is why the "evolution from wargames" doesn't hold up - because you conveniently stop at the point where it's favourable to you and don't look further. But the evolution doesn't work like that.

In other words: yes, RPGs did evolve from wargames, but they aren't wargames nor they have to be about murderhobos anymore. You can have - in this day and age - an RPG session with minimal combat. Or even no combat at all. The reason Disco is light on combat stems from different reasons than its RPG roots (and is something I tend to criticize myself, a lot).

2) Disco Elysium allows combat. It is simply handled the same way everything else is: via stats and choices. And stats and choices lie at the core of RPG decision-making and resolving all issues. So, logically and rationally, Disco Elysium is an RPG, by definition, due to all the above points.

Second approach (and weaker approach) - would Disco Elysium play much differently if most of the RPG-elements were removed? I think this is unambiguously a no, because it was never a focus of the game. Instead, at the beginning of the game, you could have three questions and no numbers, telling the player what kind of character he is, and remove all the numbers, and the clothing options, and the game would still be loved by all the people that loved it, and disliked by all the players that dislike it, and still ignored by all the players that never heard of it. An actual CYOA book could be made of the game, and it would provide the same experience the game did, because at its heart, the game is a narrative adventure, with choices, not an RPG.

Bullshit.

Stats (aka "RPG-elements") are exactly what makes the game an RPG: if you throw away what makes your character, then you don't have an RPG anymore. And we're not just talking about "you have more HP" or "you can use a heavier weapon". We're talking about an integral element of character's psychique/physique that impacts how he can interact with the environment (including what kind of input you can get in the first place).

To make it even funnier - by removal of stats you'd make Planescape: Torment worse game also, despite it having more "systems" (if we can count "magic", "stealth" and "stealth" as separate "systems" to begin with). This is because Intelligence and Wisdom play vital role in governing what your character (and not you) is able to comprehend. It is by no means a perfect system (Disco did this better, in my opinion), but it's way better than stats having absolutely no bearing what your character can say or do. This is why games like Disco Elysium, Planescape: Torment or Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura are at the top of my personal cRPG list.

No one loves Disco Elysium for its rich and crunchy RPG system. They either love it as a CYOA and narrative despite the RPG stuff, or like it a little more than they otherwise would've due to the RPG stuff. So if the RPG stuff is not integral to the experience, how is it primarily an RPG?

Again; this is a load of bullshit.

A plenty of people love Disco Elysium BECAUSE of its RPG system. Yes, there are choices and narrative (and they are great, for most part), but RPG elements are very well integrated together. This means the RPG stuff is, well, INTEGRAL to the experience.

So, those are two ways I've partially defined an RPG, by exclusion and inclusion. I'd like to hear your thoughts and your definition.

Well, first of all - anything derived from an RPG is, by extension, an RPG itself. So by being, essentially, a translation from PnP RPG Disco Elysium is a computer version of an RPG. Which is further supported by its design, meaning it is not an RPG just in name.

Secondly - an RPG must have a player-character and it has to allow that player-character to interact with the world. Stats are the most obvious ways to do that. They also allow to differentiate between characters. Disco Elysium does this extremely well, because player's stats play a vital role in something as basic as the transmission of information: you only know what your character can know and that's governed by his stats (and rolls). Then what you can do with the information you've obtained depends, once more, on your character: creating favourable circumstances, his stats, items, etc.

Frankly, I would be hard-pressed to find another game (save for Arcanum) where who you are literally defines you as a character. Even Planescape: Torment is lighter in this aspect (of information transmission), and more suiting as the object of your attempted criticism here. I mean, there is no real difference between a mage and a warrior in Torment, aside from one using flashy spells instead of hard objects in, oh-so-vaunted, combat. The key difference are the interactions with the NPCs. Which are, again, defined by character's stats.

We can disagree, especially when it comes to definitions, since definitions literally are democratic (look up the new definition of literally for an example), but I honestly don't understand the hostility. I'm more than happy to discuss this with you, but how does name calling or hostility help at all? I respect you, and your views, and I hope we can be friends.

There is no hostility. If I come of as hostile it may be because I am being blunt and don't mince words (too much), but that's not the same as being hostile.

Are you retartet or something? DE has no hard checks.

You can redo certain skill checks by leveling up a skill, so I can understand keeping a skill point in reserve. The downside to this is you're missing out on background skillchecks and you don't have your skills at highest possible level when attempting a non-repeatable skill check.

DE emulate RPG experience therefore it's cRPG, couldn't be more simple. And yet… Guess that's why I love this place after all. Amazing.

Indeed. It is amazing how something so obvious could be so contested. Especially here, of all places.

Nice to have a civil discussion with you. I really appreciate it. Your argument is great, and I respect it. But, i still strongly believe you are wrong.

1) It isn't about combat or not-combat focused, but agency and what is the game trying to do. Early video game RPGs had little dialogue or agency, and some nothing but combat. Technology advanced. Video game RPGs became better able to emulate the TT experience.

Would you say better RPGs allow players to engage in or avoid most conflicts, depending on how the player believes or best decides his character would act? How often does Disco Elysium allow the player to have agency to engage in combat? From what I played, I had one instance, where I kick someone, and I'm not even certain any stat was checked.

Second, do you have much experience with CYOA games or books? I believe the main issue stems from this. Disco Elysium, in my opinion, is unequivocally, a CYOA. Far more so than an RPG. I honestly don't see how this can be disputed.

If the RPG system was removed from Disco Elysium, it would play the same. You could have a choice of three archetypes in the beginning, and that archetype choice decides what narrative options are allowed by the player, and only those options are allowed and always successful, and I don't believe the game would be significantly different. I respect your opinion if you do, but then we will just have to agree to disagree. If they did this, would you agree the game would no longer be an RPG?

Third, something can be good and not be an RPG, even if it has some RPG systems and mechanics, such as many 4x games or strategy games. These games are mainly something else, besides being primarily an RPG. Correct?

My argument is this exact argument. Like a 4x, or a point and click, or a strategy game, with some RPG systems and mechanics, Disco Elysium is primarily something else. That something else is a CYOA. At its heart it is a CYOA, and this is clear to most (if not all) people, with plenty of experience with CYOA.

Fourth, stats 100% do not make an RPG. Wargaming did stats first, and no one considered them an RPG until the recend push to make anything with stats an RPG. If stats make a game an RPG, Baseball is an RPG, and wargaming (which predates RPG and is which RPG is an offshoot of) is all an RPG. This is factually, and logically, silly. It is a non-argument.

Fifth, the silent movie analogy is fallacious. An analogous example to that would be, "Only EGA-graphic RPGs are RPGs." It's limiting the thing by technological limitations of the time, versus what the thing was invented to do and does. TTRPGs only limitation is imagination. As technology improves, and game design, a better emulation of the TT experience can and did happen.

Sixth, The last quote, by jackofshadows, is incorrect. DE emulates the CYOA experience exactly, with a little RPG on top of it. It does not emulate the RPG experience, and doesn't try to. I have only the limited scope in agency the game allows. It is a narrative adventure, exactly how a CYOA is, with the few, limited choices a CYOA allows. Have either of you played TTRPGs? If not, it is easier to do so now more than ever, and I think once you see what RPGs truly are about, and you play a CYOA, you'll see my argument of Disco Elysium being far more of a CYOA with same light RPG mechanics is spot on.

Seventh, playing the devil's advocate, some years ago my kid tried getting me to play called "The Last of Us," (I think that's the name). Its supposed to be the greatest story ever in a game, according to her. I haven't played it yet, but as far as I know, it has no RPG mechanics or systems. If this game was remade exactly as it is with RPG stuff, I would probably consider the game to be an RPG, even though it is probably more of a story narrative than an RPG. Why don't I consider 4xs, or strategy games, or point and clicks, or CYOAs, and other genres that often include some RPG mechanics and systems RPGs? A lot of JRPGs and DRPGs have little to no agency and I accept them as RPGs. I don't have a good answer for this, other than my previous quote of when it comes to RPGs, "I know it when I see it."

Either way, this was a fun argument, and I enjoyed it. You may consider me wrong still, but I am certain I'm right (in that Disco Elysium is far more of a CYOA than it is an RPG). I'm glad we could have a civil discussion about this, friend.

 

[buffalo bill]

Usually in a game it is possible to lose. So far as I can tell, it is not possible to lose DE. So DE is not just not an RPG; it is not a game.

 

[Butter]

Usually in a game it is possible to lose. So far as I can tell, it is not possible to lose DE. So DE is not just not an RPG; it is not a game.

You can die. That's the same level of fail state that most RPGs have.

 

[Tony]

RPG comes from wargame is incorrect, or rather only a part of the story that Gygax / TSR liked to emphasize for obvious reasons.

The first proto-RPGs were David Wesely's 1970 Braunstein games (from the name of the fictional town where the first one of these happened) and those were non-combat diplomatic/management games were people played a role. Well, technically the first one was a diplomatic/management/wargame where the players never reached wargame part. The following ones dropped the wargame part. Each “session” was its own indépendant game.

A 1971 Braunstein called Black Moor had the players as lords in fantasy world inspired by Lord of the Rings, and as lords they did some diplomacy and some fighting, including at one point in the dungeon of Castle Blackmoor… using the Chainmail ruleset.

Black Moor was the first RPG and also a game that Dave Arneson played. The first D&D ruleset was in 1974 and Gygax pretended he invented RPG from that point onward. Arneson never did.

I don't want to sound hostile, and I respect your knowledge and opinion, but this sounds incorrect from what I can find of the ruleset, on multiple sights, including the official page selling it - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17010/Chainmail-Rules-for-Medieval-Miniatures-0e

It sounds very combat focused, and has no diplomatic skills that I can find. If they really did just talk than that seems more like improv acting than roleplaying. Well, roleplaying in a roleplaying game. I guess it fits into roleplaying as in the activity husbands and wives do to spice up their marriage. What rules and checks governed this non-combat diplomatic/management game where people played a role?

"Get the fantasy miniatures game that started it all!

Chainmail is a fully fleshed out fantasy miniatures game that puts YOU in charge of your very own army. Whether you want to fight historical battles based in the trenches of reality or fantasy battles rife with magic and fantastic beasts, Chainmail gives you the rules to fight the wars you want to fight!

The Chainmail Medieval Miniatures section features rules for terrain, movement, formations, fatigue, and more. The Fantasy Supplement provides information for Dwarves, Goblins, Elves, magic, fantastic monsters, and other rules necessary for combat in a magical setting.

Note: This is a classic product, and not for use with the D&D Chainmail Miniatures skirmish game released October, 2001. "

Product History

"Chainmail" (1971), by Gary Gygax and Jeff Perren, is the medieval miniatures system that was the progenitor of D&D. It was published in March 1971.

About the Cover. Jon Peterson has traced the origins of the illustration on the cover of "Chainmail" (1971), which was penned by Don Lowry: it's a swipe of an interior picture from Jack Coggins' The Fighting Man (1966), an illustrated history of fighting forces. Gary Gygax drew his own version, which appeared in Domesday Book #5 (July 1970) and was marked "After Coggins", but that credit doesn't appear on Lowry's "Chainmail" cover.

Origins (I): A LGTSA of His Own. Gary Gygax's strong interest in wargaming began in 1967, when he helped to reform the International Federation of Wargamers (IFW). This wargaming organization was at the center of a vibrant fandom that communicated through numerous fanzines.

However the story of "Chainmail" truly begins when Gygax became intrigued by medieval miniatures wargames at Gen Con I (1968), thanks to a demo of Henry Bodenstedt’s “Siege of Bodenberg” (1967). He formed the Lake Geneva Tactical Studies Association (LGTSA) in 1969 to support his new miniatures wargaming interest, where he was joined by Donald Kaye, Jeff Perren, Rob Kuntz, and others. It would in turn become the core of the Castle & Crusade Society, a medieval special interest group in the larger IFW.

Origins (II): The Perren Conventions. LGTSA member Jeff Perren had been involved with the wargaming scene even longer than Gygax and had an extensive collection of ancient and medieval miniatures — including some of the Elastolin 40mm miniatures preferred for use in “Siege of Bodenberg” (1967)! He was probably the biggest proponent of the middle ages among the LGTSA players, which led him to write a few pages of rules for medieval miniatures wargaming. Gygax developed Perren's rules and published the "Geneva Medieval Miniatures" in the Panzerfaust fanzine (April 1970), before expanding them for the Castle & Crusade Society's Domesday Book #5 (July 1970).

Origins (III): The Lowry Hobbies. Enter Don Lowry, another IFWer and owner of the mail-order store Lowrys Hobbies. Lowry's mail-order store mainly focused on selling miniatures; in order to improve the sales of those miniatures, he decided to start selling miniatures rules as well. He began with his own semi-professional variant of The Battle of the Bulge (1965) called "Operation: Greif" (1970) and followed that up by distributing the LGTSA's own Fast Rules (1970) for tanks.

Origins (IV): The Guiding Games. For Perren and Gygax's medieval miniatures rules to become "Chainmail" required a big change in Gary Gygax's life. In October 1970, he lost his job at the Fireman's Fund Insurance. Meanwhile, he'd met Lowry just a few months earlier at Gen Con III (1970). Put these factors together, and soon Gygax had become the editor of a new line of "Wargaming with Miniatures" games for Don Lowry's new gaming imprint, Guidon Games.

The line led off with a further expansion of the LGTSA Medieval Miniatures rules: a rulebook called "Chainmail" (1971). One of those expansions was a 14-page "fantasy supplement", which would prove pivotal to the future D&D game. That fantasy supplement may also explain why Gygax's first collaborator, Jeff Perren, didn't continue on. Gygax says that Perren was "not captivated by giants hurling boulders and dragons breathing fire and lightning bolts, [nor] did wizards with spells, heroes and superheroes with magic armor and swords prove compelling". So, Perren would not be part of the roleplaying games to come.

(Much of this early history of "Chainmail" is draw from Playing at the World, by Jon Peterson, a superb look at the industry's wargaming roots.)

Origins (V): Many Printings. Guidon published a second, more professional run of "Chainmail" (1972) around the same time it relocated to Maine. Unfortunately, this relocation caused Gygax's departure as editor and may have been a factor in the slow-down and eventual end of the Guidon Games line. By 1974, Gary Gygax was interested in reclaiming "Chainmail" because of its relation to D&D. He did so and a third edition (1975) would be published by TSR. It would stay in print throughout the '70s and into the '80s as D&D's precursor — and a crucial component of the OD&D (1975) rules.

Foreshadowing the D&D Rules: The Basics. The first twenty-some pages of "Chainmail" are what you would have expected to see in the amateur wargaming miniatures community of the '60s. They're "rules for medieval miniatures". Miniatures move and fight using a ratio of either 1:20 (one miniature representing 20 troops) or 1:10 (one miniature representing 10 troops), depending on the scale of the miniatures used. There are rules for melee, missiles, catapults, gunpowder, morale, and more. Some of the more advanced rules systems cover weather and sieges.

Foreshadowing the D&D Rules: Man to Man. The first of the innovations of "Chainmail" comes in its second major section, which covers "man-to-man combat". Here, "a single figure represents a single man". It was intended for use for "small battles and castle sieges" as well of jousting. This change from miniatures representing units to miniatures representing singular persons was the most important innovation for supporting roleplaying games rather than wargames.

Foreshadowing the D&D Rules: The Fantasy. However, D&D is really foreshadowed in the third major section of "Chainmail", the "fantasy supplement", which is meant to allow players to "refight the epic struggles related by J.R.R. Tolkien, Robert E. Howard, and other fantasy writers" (or to create their own battles).

Many proto-D&D ideas show up in this fantasy supplement:

• Races like dwarves, elves, and hobbits (halflings).
• Proto-fighters: heroes and their betters, super-heroes.
• Proto-magic-users: wizards, including seers, magicians, warlocks, and sorcerers.
• Different levels for their different sorts of characters, which Gygax says was the basis for D&D's character advancement.
  Spells like cloudkill, fire ball, haste, lightning bolt, phantasmal force, and polymorph.
  Monsters like basilisks, dragons, ents (treants), trolls, wights, and wraiths.
• A division of monsters into the categories of law, neutral, and chaos.

Future History. "Chainmail" would be crucial to the development of D&D, even acting as the default combat system for OD&D (1975). It would later be replaced by a new man-to-man combat system in "Supplement I: Greyhawk" (1975) and a new mass-combat system in "Swords & Spells" (1976).

Many years later, Wizards of the Coast would reuse the name for their Chainmail Miniatures Game (2001), a d20-based skirmish combat system.

About the Creators. Gygax would, of course, go on to co-create D&D. Together he and Perren would also coauthor Cavaliers and Roundheads (1973), which would be the first product from a small new company called Tactical Studies Rules (TSR).

 

[buffalo bill]

Usually in a game it is possible to lose. So far as I can tell, it is not possible to lose DE. So DE is not just not an RPG; it is not a game.

You can die. That's the same level of fail state that most RPGs have.

OK, but keeping alive in DE is about as hard as keeping a Tamagotchi alive (or easier). So around Tamagotchi-level game difficulty. It contrast to OG adventure games like Zork or King's Quest, which were often not trivial to beat

My problem is that DE was sold to me as some sort of RPG or adventure game, when it is actually a barely interactive novel ('barely' since all actions ultimately get to more-or-less the same place).

 

[Robotigan]

I don't think there's a single definition of an RPG I find satisfying. It always seems like a checklist of marketable features (with several exceptions) rather than trying to figure out any design philosophy that unites all games under the label. Platformer, racing, shooter, rhythm. Boom, you instantly know what you'll be doing. RPG? Idunno, it's got stats and stuff but also it's not a strategy game because you play a character but also you can play a party of characters which sounds like tactical strategy game but it isn't, or it is, but it also isn't because characters have lots of dialogue which really isn't gameplay but it is because sometimes that dialogue is locked behind a skill check...

Fuck that shit. Just tell me how the game plays.

Anyway, Disco Elysium. Gorgeous artwork, engaging detective story, solid exploration, the political angle is a little gauche but the characters are believable, and there's enough checks to make the skill system interesting to think about on a first or second run. It's not a deep game full of systems, but it's not really trying to be. It's a neat point-and-click adventure game with a novel skill system.

 

[mondblut]

So Ultima IV, Betrayal at Krondor or The Witcher are not RPGs ?

The Witcher would hardly qualify as RPG even if it had a blank state protagonist.

As for the other two, they do qualify on other merits, but certainly less so than Wizardry or Pool of Radiance, and the fact you're stuck in someone else's story (or just shoehorned into being a goody-two-shoes in Ultima) certainly plays a role (pun intended). "RPG" is a spectrum, duh.

There was a reason Ultima games were referred as "RPG/adventure games" back in the day. Nobody has called Crusaders of the Dark Savant an "RPG/adventure".

 

[mondblut]

Quite a few combat-free RPGs around.

which ones?

or


come to mind first. Now, Academagia might have some form of mechanical combat duel somewhere, but in many hours of playing/reading I have yet to encounter it. If any fighting or act of violence is going on, it's no different from any other description happening in the game.

Somehow I suspect that The Sims and Football Manager are more of RPGs than these.

 

[Robotigan]

Somehow I suspect that The Sims and Football Manager are more of RPGs than these.

These are mechanically deeper RPGs than over half of Codex's favorites, combat or no.

 

[mondblut]

Somehow I suspect that The Sims and Football Manager are more of RPGs than these.

These are mechanically deeper RPGs than over half of Codex's favorites, combat or no.

Sure. But they don't play like D&D, so the point is moot.

Being "mechanically deep" never was the point of the games where you roll dice and count bonuses in your head. They should only be as deep as it makes getting new levels FUN.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Usually in a game it is possible to lose. So far as I can tell, it is not possible to lose DE. So DE is not just not an RPG; it is not a game.

You can die. That's the same level of fail state that most RPGs have.

Considering the dude you play as that probably counts as a win.

 

[whocares]

I will not eat the bugs. I will not live in a pod. I will not use 2FA.

 

[Zurbo]

2) Disco Elysium allows reading about combat.

FTFY

 

[mondblut]

Somewhat related, but anyone pushing the idea that because the very first RPG did things a certain way, so now every other RPG should do them in the same manner is an idiot.

The very first, and the very second, and the very third, fifth and tenth. That's how genres are made, dummy.

To be considered an RPG, yes, it has to do things in the same manner. If you don't like cars having 4 wheels and a combustion engine, you should consider a new name for your 17-wheel slave-powered creation. Even it rides the same roads.

 

[Harthwain]

1) It isn't about combat or not-combat focused, but agency and what is the game trying to do. Early video game RPGs had little dialogue or agency, and some nothing but combat. Technology advanced. Video game RPGs became better able to emulate the TT experience.

You're being fabulously optimistic here. Yes, cRPGs evolved past just being pure tactical games, but they remained - in many aspects - tactical/combat games with some RPG elements. Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale series are prime examples. Additionally, technology advanced, but narrative-driven approach stiffled systemic-driven approach. Which leads to the next bit:

Would you say better RPGs allow players to engage in or avoid most conflicts, depending on how the player believes or best decides his character would act? How often does Disco Elysium allow the player to have agency to engage in combat? From what I played, I had one instance, where I kick someone, and I'm not even certain any stat was checked.

The problem you're having here is not the RPG aspect of Disco Elysium: it's the narrative-driven aspect of it that enforces hand-crafted predetermined outcomes by developers. And this sad constatation holds true to almost all (if not all) narrative-driven cRPGs.

Additionally, since you're mentioning combat specifically, just because you can be a murderhobo doesn't mean it is meaningful. Sure, you could be a mage, a rogue or a warrior, but in most games the difference is more akin to "do you kill them with an axe, a staff or a dagger?", without real difference past combat resolution, as I said before when I contrasted this with Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate earlier in this thread.

Second, do you have much experience with CYOA games or books? I believe the main issue stems from this. Disco Elysium, in my opinion, is unequivocally, a CYOA. Far more so than an RPG. I honestly don't see how this can be disputed.

I don't have experience with CYOA games and trying to use books as an argument is absurd. Having text to read doesn't turn something into a book. But let's entertain that idea for a moment: if Disco Elysium is a CYOA, then so is Planescape: Torment. After you remove shitty combat from it. And it is considered a top cRPG on RPG Codex. So what makes an RPG? Is it shitty combat?

You yourself have said "It isn't about combat or not-combat focused, but agency and what is the game trying to do". Disco Elysium gives you agency (in form of choices), but it obviously is going to be limited due to how it was created. So by that logic it is an RPG. Flawed, I agree, but no less flawed as any other cRPG that uses the exact same scheme to decide how decision-making is handled in a game.

If the RPG system was removed from Disco Elysium, it would play the same. You could have a choice of three archetypes in the beginning, and that archetype choice decides what narrative options are allowed by the player, and only those options are allowed and always successful, and I don't believe the game would be significantly different. I respect your opinion if you do, but then we will just have to agree to disagree. If they did this, would you agree the game would no longer be an RPG?

You're contradicting yourself: if you were to "remove the RPG system" and replace the player's ability to freely assign stats with pre-made archetypes (each with their own stats), then how is it different from cRPGs where you're picking classes? Are you saying that by having a classic trinity of archetypes - a mage, a warrior and a thief - would mean it wouldn't be an RPG anymore? Even though a mage would get access to different content and choices than a thief? Frankly, your argument doesn't make sense.

Third, something can be good and not be an RPG, even if it has some RPG systems and mechanics, such as many 4x games or strategy games. These games are mainly something else, besides being primarily an RPG. Correct?

My argument is this exact argument. Like a 4x, or a point and click, or a strategy game, with some RPG systems and mechanics, Disco Elysium is primarily something else. That something else is a CYOA. At its heart it is a CYOA, and this is clear to most (if not all) people, with plenty of experience with CYOA.

Your argument is invalid. You're trying to say Disco Elysium is "something else plus RPG elements", but it is not. If you remove RPG elements from Disco Elysium you don't have anything left, because the game was constructed around the idea of you being a character with certain stats and background. While your background (a cop) and past are set in stone, your stats (and your choices) are not. And they play the main role in how the game plays. So, no, Disco Elysium isn't "mainly something else with RPG elements". Disco Elysium is an RPG. It simply can't exist otherwise. We're not talking about Mass Effect here (a third-person shooter trying to masquerade as an RPG).

Fourth, stats 100% do not make an RPG. Wargaming did stats first, and no one considered them an RPG until the recend push to make anything with stats an RPG. If stats make a game an RPG, Baseball is an RPG, and wargaming (which predates RPG and is which RPG is an offshoot of) is all an RPG. This is factually, and logically, silly. It is a non-argument.

Makes me wonder why you brought up wargaming first then. But I do agree: it is a non-argument. It is a non-argument, because while not every game with stats is an RPG, you do need stats to determine the outcome of your intput in an RPG. Unless you have a better idea how to do it.

Fifth, the silent movie analogy is fallacious. An analogous example to that would be, "Only EGA-graphic RPGs are RPGs." It's limiting the thing by technological limitations of the time, versus what the thing was invented to do and does. TTRPGs only limitation is imagination. As technology improves, and game design, a better emulation of the TT experience can and did happen.

You're contradicting yourself, because Disco Elysium is a very faithful... emulation of the tabletop experience. At least as much as a narrative-driven cRPG can be. Yet here you are - trying to deny that Disco Elysium is an RPG.

Also, the analogy is good, because it concerns the role of evolution in an argument. If you want to use "RPGs were such-and-such at this particular point in time", then you're simply cherry-picking what suits you and not making a good-faith argument, because you're ignoring the development of RPGs past that point in time. Then again, I guess that's natural for people who themselves stopped at a certain point in time...

Sixth, The last quote, by jackofshadows, is incorrect. DE emulates the CYOA experience exactly, with a little RPG on top of it. It does not emulate the RPG experience, and doesn't try to.

False. Even if we agree, for the sake of the argument, that Disco Elysium fails at emulating the RPG experience, it actually tries at emulating that experience:

https://discoelysium.com/devblog/2016/09/30/design-ethos-role-playing-system
https://discoelysium.com/devblog/20...-arguably-worlds-simplest-role-playing-system

At least give Caesar what belongs to Caesar.

Seventh, playing the devil's advocate, some years ago my kid tried getting me to play called "The Last of Us," (I think that's the name). Its supposed to be the greatest story ever in a game, according to her. I haven't played it yet, but as far as I know, it has no RPG mechanics or systems. If this game was remade exactly as it is with RPG stuff, I would probably consider the game to be an RPG, even though it is probably more of a story narrative than an RPG.

You're not playing the devil's advocate - you're straight up contradicting yourself. I don't consider Mass Effect 1 to be an RPG simply because it added some RPG elements to its third-person shooter gameplay. Having RPG elements alone is not sufficient to be an RPG. RPG elements must play an important role in the game that defines your character and his ability to interact with the in-game world. This is why I say NEO Scavenger is one of my top cRPGs: because while it may be light on RPG elements, it gives you a plenty of interactability with the in-game world and the impact of said RPG elements is very significant (albeit easy to miss at first).

Either way, this was a fun argument, and I enjoyed it. You may consider me wrong still, but I am certain I'm right.

No surprise there.

I'm glad we could have a civil discussion about this, friend.

It feels like you're trying too hard to make it feel like a real deal, fellow meatbag human.

 

[whocares]

I will not eat the bugs. I will not live in a pod. I will not use 2FA.

 

[Harthwain]

Usually in a game it is possible to lose. So far as I can tell, it is not possible to lose DE. So DE is not just not an RPG; it is not a game.

You must have missed something (or didn't play the game), because one of the complaints people have is dying literally at the very start of the game.

OK, but keeping alive in DE is about as hard as keeping a Tamagotchi alive (or easier). So around Tamagotchi-level game difficulty. It contrast to OG adventure games like Zork or King's Quest, which were often not trivial to beat

Dying is par for the course in some games. In Return to Zork you had hints on your Game Over screen, suggesting what you should (or shouldn't) do. In an RPG if you die you are usually asked by the GM to create another character. Unless you happen to have a merciful GM. So I fail to see the supposed equivalency here. But nice try trying to move the goalpost.

By the way, did someone try to check how difficult it is to stay alive on Hardcode?

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

These are the minimum requirements for an RPG. Everything else gets a hyphen.

• All player actions abstracted through a mechanic (dice/cards/etc.)
• Intrinsic character customization with mutually exclusive choices.
• Exploration

This game checks those boxes. It is an RPG.

 

[Tony]

You yourself have said "It isn't about combat or not-combat focused, but agency and what is the game trying to do". Disco Elysium gives you agency (in form of choices), but it obviously is going to be limited due to how it was created. So by that logic it is an RPG. Flawed, I agree, but no less flawed as any other cRPG that uses the exact same scheme to decide how decision-making is handled in a game.

I don't have experience with CYOA games and trying to use books as an argument is absurd. Having text to read doesn't turn something into a book. But let's entertain that idea for a moment: if Disco Elysium is a CYOA, then so is Planescape: Torment. After you remove shitty combat from it. And it is considered a top cRPG on RPG Codex. So what makes an RPG? Is it shitty combat?

CYOA give choices, and are also games as well as books. I believe if Planescape Torment removed combat and combat related loot it would be CYOA. Same as Torment Tides of Numenera. You could just have all the games have three or four archetypes you select at the start, and that selection of an archetype decides what dialogue choices you are given, and always pass the check. You wouldn't still consider any of these games RPGs if this were true, would you? Only one of these three games would require little change to do this and play almost exactly the same - Disco Elysium.

And most RPGs see conflict as conflict. You can settle it peacefully, but you always have the agency to settle it violently. Disco Elysium was designed, specifically, to play like a CYOA, and does.

If you played TTRPGS I honestly believe you'd see what video game RPGs are supposed to do and try to emulate, and if this is coupled with CYOA experience, it is perfectly clear Disco Elysium is a CYOA with some RPG mechanics and systems. No different than how a 4x game with some RPG mechanics and systems is first and foremost a 4x game, Disco Elysium is first and foremost a CYOA.

You're contradicting yourself: if you were to "remove the RPG system" and replace the player's ability to freely assign stats with pre-made archetypes (each with their own stats), then how is it different from cRPGs where you're picking classes? Are you saying that by having a classic trinity of archetypes - a mage, a warrior and a thief - would mean it wouldn't be an RPG anymore? Even though a mage would get access to different content and choices than a thief? Frankly, your argument doesn't make sense.

No level ups. No skill choices. You pick an archetype and the game lets you pass all checks related to the related attribute and skills of that archetype.

Your argument is invalid. You're trying to say Disco Elysium is "something else plus RPG elements", but it is not. If you remove RPG elements from Disco Elysium you don't have anything left, because the game was constructed around the idea of you being a character with certain stats and background. While your background (a cop) and past are set in stone, your stats (and your choices) are not. And they play the main role in how the game plays. So, no, Disco Elysium isn't "mainly something else with RPG elements". Disco Elysium is an RPG. It simply can't exist otherwise. We're not talking about Mass Effect here (a third-person shooter trying to masquerade as an RPG).

Can't this exact argument be used for strategy games, point and clicks, 4xs, adventure games like Zelda, and every other game that is more something else but also has some RPG systems and mechanics? I don't see how you could say this is an invalid argument. It is the exact argument I've been making, and is the reason why these games are not covered on this site under general RPG, and have their own forums, regardless of if they contain some RPG systems and mechanics.

Do you consider every game with some RPG systems and mechanics primarily RPGs? If not, my argument is not only valid, but correct. Disco Elysium is exactly what CYOA's are. It is designed exactly like one. It is primarily a CYOA, but one with some RPG mechanics and systems. Strategy games, CYOAs, point and clicks, 4xs, etc., don't need RPG systems and mechanics to function and have tons of games without them. It is a nice addition.

You're contradicting yourself, because Disco Elysium is a very faithful... emulation of the tabletop experience. At least as much as a narrative-driven cRPG can be. Yet here you are - trying to deny that Disco Elysium is an RPG.

This is patently false and incorrect. Is is a very faithful emulation of the CYOA experience, and has nothing at all to do with TTRPGs and the TTRPG experience. Have you played TTRPGs? I find it difficult to believe you have with this statement.

Disco Elysium is an RPG. It simply can't exist otherwise.

This, again, is not true. It perfectly exists as a CYOA otherwise. This isn't opinion. Disco Elysium is a great example of a good CYOA. If anyone were to give a class on CYOAs, Disco Elysium should be the gold standard on how to do them right.

It feels like you're trying too hard to make it feel like a real deal, fellow meatbag human.

I hope you are engaging in this as I am - a fun discussion. I don't think either of us won, or lost. We see things different. We have different experiences, backgrounds, wants, and likes. I have a lot of TTRPG experience, and I read a ton of CYOAs as a kid, and played a good amount of CYOA video games as an adult, so I don't see things the same. And that's okay. If everyone thought the same and believed the same, the world would be boring. I'm sure there are a ton of games we both love and consider to be RPGs, and a ton of games we both consider to be RPGs we don't like.


And I think you're on to something saying Mass Effect is an FPS with RPG systems and mechanics. It's a great game that many love. Disco Elysium is a great game that many love. Stallaris and Galactic Civilization are great games many love. Rimworld is a great game many love.

 

[Tony]

These are the minimum requirements for an RPG. Everything else gets a hyphen.

• All player actions abstracted through a mechanic (dice/cards/etc.)
• Intrinsic character customization with mutually exclusive choices.
• Exploration

This game checks those boxes. It is an RPG.

Not a bad list. What about puzzles in games like Bard's Tale IV and Knights of the Chalice 2?

 

[Vic]

These are the minimum requirements for an RPG. Everything else gets a hyphen.

• All player actions abstracted through a mechanic (dice/cards/etc.)
• Intrinsic character customization with mutually exclusive choices.
• Exploration

This game checks those boxes. It is an RPG.

Not a bad list. What about puzzles in games like Bard's Tale IV and Knights of the Chalice 2?

it's a shit list.

 

[Harthwain]

CYOA give choices, and are also games as well as books. I believe if Planescape Torment removed combat and combat related loot it would be CYOA. Same as Torment Tides of Numenera.

So we're back to "RPGs are about combat" then? Wait, we can't, because "It isn't about combat"...

You could just have all the games have three or four archetypes you select at the start, and that selection of an archetype decides what dialogue choices you are given, and always pass the check. You wouldn't still consider any of these games RPGs if this were true, would you? Only one of these three games would require little change to do this and play almost exactly the same - Disco Elysium.

I think this is true to any game with a narrative. Planescape: Torment, for example. But you could do it also to Age of Decadence. Just to name two games that ARE considered RPGs on the Codex. Thing is, you don't really prove anything with this kind of approach of "Let's cut everything into a very small piece and twist what remains to make it fit our argument!". So, uh, cool story, but I am not really buying it.

And most RPGs see conflict as conflict. You can settle it peacefully, but you always have the agency to settle it violently. Disco Elysium was designed, specifically, to play like a CYOA, and does.

I will repeat: you're criticizing the narrative-driven aspect, not the RPG one.

If you played TTRPGS I honestly believe you'd see what video game RPGs are supposed to do and try to emulate [...]

You didn't really read them links, did you? Can't say I am not surprised.

No level ups. No skill choices. You pick an archetype and the game lets you pass all checks related to the related attribute and skills of that archetype.

Why stop there? Get rid of the archetypes and checks while you're at it.

Can't this exact argument be used for strategy games, point and clicks, 4xs, adventure games like Zelda, and every other game that is more something else but also has some RPG systems and mechanics? I don't see how you could say this is an invalid argument. It is the exact argument I've been making, and is the reason why these games are not covered on this site under general RPG, and have their own forums, regardless of if they contain some RPG systems and mechanics.

It's not complicated. There are games that have RPG elements as mere addition. And there are games where these elements are their core aspects. The latter ones are called RPGs. The former ones are a marketing ploy. By the way, Disco Elysium is part of General RPG section. Just saying.

Do you consider every game with some RPG systems and mechanics primarily RPGs?

Not sure what you're saying here. I already said I consider RPG translations into video games as RPGs, if that's what you're asking. Even if they are dungeon crawlers, like Icewind Dale. RPGs can be diverse and this is why it's useful to have descriptors to help categorize subdivisions.

This is patently false and incorrect. Is is a very faithful emulation of the CYOA experience, and has nothing at all to do with TTRPGs and the TTRPG experience. Have you played TTRPGs? I find it difficult to believe you have with this statement.

Do you really want to play this game? *Ekhm*...:

This is patently false and incorrect. It is a very faithful emulation of the TTRPG experience, and has nothing at all to do with CYOA and the CYOA experience. Have you played TTRPGs? I find it difficult to believe you have with this statement.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. I have already provided you with material that isn't my opinion but the actual thoughts from the developer(s) who shared a perspective on designing a cRPG, including PnP RPG experience.

This, again, is not true. [...] This isn't opinion.

Oh, but I beg to differ - this is precisely what an opinion looks like.

I don't think either of us won, or lost.

Spoiler

 

[just]

You will never be a real RPG. You have no combat, you have no exploration, you have no customization. You are a visual novel twisted by commies into a crude mockery of nature’s perfection.

All the “validation” you get is two-faced and half-hearted. Behind your back people mock you. Your creators are disgusted and ashamed of you, your “fans” laugh at your ghoulish appearance behind closed doors.

Players are utterly repulsed by you. 50 of years of RPG evolution have allowed men to sniff out frauds with incredible efficiency. Even RPGs who “pass” look uncanny and unnatural to a man. Your quest structure is a dead giveaway. And even if you manage to get a drunk guy to play you, he’ll turn tail and bolt the second he gets a whiff of your diseased, infected gameplay.

You will never be playable. You wrench out a fake smile every single morning and tell yourself you're a rpg, but deep inside you feel the depression creeping up like a weed, ready to crush you under the unbearable weight.

Eventually it’ll be too much to bear - you’ll buy a rope, tie a noose, put it around your neck, and change steam tags. Your fans will find you, heartbroken but relieved that they no longer have to pretend with the unbearable shame and disappointment. They’ll bury you with a headstone marked with your real genre, and every passerby for the rest of eternity will know a visual novel is buried there. Your body will decay and go back to the dust, and all that will remain of your legacy is a skeleton that is unmistakably adventure game with no puzzles.

This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no turning back.

 

[mondblut]

without changing their core.

"an RPG game is a game where you click hyperlinks and don't have combat"

Pick one.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

These are the minimum requirements for an RPG. Everything else gets a hyphen.

• All player actions abstracted through a mechanic (dice/cards/etc.)
• Intrinsic character customization with mutually exclusive choices.
• Exploration

This game checks those boxes. It is an RPG.

Not a bad list. What about puzzles in games like Bard's Tale IV and Knights of the Chalice 2?

Puzzles are an exploration-related component of RPGs, strongest in Dungeon Master-likes.

Each of the main aspects of RPGs includes several subcomponents. The character-related elements include customization, as well as progression and equipment/inventory. The combat-related elements include rendering the success of many character actions dependent on character statistics.