Do you consider Disco Elysium an RPG?

[Zombra]

I'm on to you Vic.

 

[Gahbreeil]

More of an adventure game yet it does have statistics and skills which affect the branching storyline.

 

[Morality Games]

Discuss why or why not.

I think the good entries from RPG-adjacent genres (visual novels, adventure games, turn-based strategies, immersive sims, etc) that make strong enough contributions or innovations to the shared creative zeitgeist that bridges these genres are often considered honorary RPGs.

System Shock 2 would be an example.

 

[Vic]

RPG-adjacent genres (visual novels, adventure games, turn-based strategies, immersive sims, etc)

that's quite the stretch

 

[Vic]

strong enough contributions or innovations to the shared creative zeitgeist

not much creativity in DE tbh, it has really good writing but that's because it was written by an actual writer. If anything it just shows that good writing and good gameplay are not compatible in a video game.

 

[Gahbreeil]

not much creativity in DE tbh, it has really good writing but that's because it was written by an actual writer. If anything it just shows that good writing and good gameplay are not compatible in a video game.

Baldur's Gate! The writing is semi-decent. Besides my fanboy statement, it's all because of game developers wanting to create their own games, be it poorly or well made. They don't care about the video gamers. The publisher pays them and it's the publisher who receives royalties.

 

[Nano]

OP is still a faggot.

 

[Vic]

OP is still a faggot.

please shave your armpits

 

[Nano]

OP is still a faggot.

please shave your armpits

You wish your pits were as hairy as mine.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

It is looking like RPG (Role Playing Game) by various sides is trying to make it quite specific what it should entail. It looks like, depending on what functions you have, who you can play and how you administer the functions; is how you should categorize the RPG (ie TTBRPG). The WHORE method is saying "RPG = any game in which you play the role of an individual or party."

Beyond that, you have to fit your game into a specific box and add it to a sub-category. One RPG does not rule them all and bind them to that mould.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

Brok the InvestiGator is more of an RPG than Disco Elysium.

Brok has a combat system. Moreover, you can attack literally any character. There is experience and leveling up, which directly determines your ability to fight. There's stealth, albeit crappy, but that's usual for stealth in RPGs. Almost all (or maybe all) quests can be solved violently or non-violently. The choices and consequences are much more substantial than in Disco Elysium. There are several dramatically different endings.

Of course, the author of Brok does not claim that his game is an RPG. Although he is far more qualified to do so than KurvitzKompus and Co.

 

[gurugeorge]

I do consider it at least partly an RPG, yes (mainly via choices you make on interacting with the virtual world affecting how you perform). In my opinion it's a true hybrid of Adventure game and RPG (and amazingly well done).

 

[Tony]

Do you really want to play this game? *Ekhm*...:

This is patently false and incorrect. It is a very faithful emulation of the TTRPG experience, and has nothing at all to do with CYOA and the CYOA experience. Have you played TTRPGs? I find it difficult to believe you have with this statement.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. I have already provided you with material that isn't my opinion but the actual thoughts from the developer(s) who shared a perspective on designing a cRPG, including PnP RPG experience.

Green Day somehow made punk music and claimed they never listened to punk music. Maybe they played TTRPGs wrong. I don't know. If I made a TCG exactly like MTG and called it an RPG and made posts about it being an RPGs, it wouldn't change the fact it's a TCG independent of my intentions or experience. The developers, either on purpose or by accident, made a CYOA game. Plenty of directors set out with the intention of making horror movies, and try their best to make a horror movie, but end up with a comedy. End product and intention don't always match. I guess they set out to make an RPG but accidentally made a CYOA, I'm open to this possibility. But it is an indisputable fact they made a CYOA.

You should really try playing TTRPGs. It's easier than ever now, with a lot of cheap tools on Steam allowing you to get into a game quickly. Stranger Things has helped with a resurgence of TTRPGs. It really helps see what RPGs were created to do, and what they can do, and what you hope they will do in video game RPGs, and it is a ton of fun.

 

[Tony]

These are the minimum requirements for an RPG. Everything else gets a hyphen.

• All player actions abstracted through a mechanic (dice/cards/etc.)
• Intrinsic character customization with mutually exclusive choices.
• Exploration

This game checks those boxes. It is an RPG.

Not a bad list. What about puzzles in games like Bard's Tale IV and Knights of the Chalice 2?

Puzzles are an exploration-related component of RPGs, strongest in Dungeon Master-likes.

Each of the main aspects of RPGs includes several subcomponents. The character-related elements include customization, as well as progression and equipment/inventory. The combat-related elements include rendering the success of many character actions dependent on character statistics.

I don't disagree, but the puzzle aspects would have to be added as an asterisk to the first rule (All player actions abstracted through a mechanic (dice/cards/etc.)).

I, personally, would prefer if my character's attributes would determine puzzle outcomes, but I know a lot of people love them. And there are different kinds of puzzles. Some of the puzzles in Knights of the Chalice 2, in the dungeon under the first town, really seem like they should be decided by a character's WIS or INT. And if not the whole puzzle, then at least have the relevant attribute decide if I get the hint or not. As of now, I just hit the hint button, or decipher all button. Maybe somehow tie experience into it? I don't know, I just feel like I'm cheating hitting the hint button, or decipher all button. I play RPGs to relax, not study for a test on fantasy lore and the names of fake moons or fictional characters.

 

[WhiteShark]

I don't disagree, but the puzzle aspects would have to be added as an asterisk to the first rule (All player actions abstracted through a mechanic (dice/cards/etc.)).

I, personally, would prefer if my character's attributes would determine puzzle outcomes, but I know a lot of people love them. And there are different kinds of puzzles. Some of the puzzles in Knights of the Chalice 2, in the dungeon under the first town, really seem like they should be decided by a character's WIS or INT. And if not the whole puzzle, then at least have the relevant attribute decide if I get the hint or not. As of now, I just hit the hint button, or decipher all button. Maybe somehow tie experience into it? I don't know, I just feel like I'm cheating hitting the hint button, or decipher all button. I play RPGs to relax, not study for a test on fantasy lore and the names of fake moons or fictional characters.

To say that everything must be abstracted through a mechanic is hyperbole to begin with. If we took that logic to its extreme, there would be no gameplay whatsoever. You would roll your character's Tactics skill to get through fights, his Exploration skill to map the dungeon, his Puzzle-Solving skill to solve puzzles, and so on. The gameplay of an RPG is meant to be cerebral; thus the cerebral tasks are left to the player and the physical ones abstracted through a dice mechanic. The labelling of special speech options and the assurance that they are always the best ones is already a decline in this regard as it abstracts the very sort of cerebral task that should be the domain of the player.

 

[jackofshadows]

I hope you are engaging in this as I am - a fun discussion. I don't think either of us won, or lost. We see things different. We have different experiences, backgrounds, wants, and likes. I have a lot of TTRPG experience, and I read a ton of CYOAs as a kid, and played a good amount of CYOA video games as an adult, so I don't see things the same.

Seems to me there's no in between for you then. I bet you're kind of guy to whom local top RPGs like Fallout/Arcanum/VTMB are RPGs only because they have combat, otherwise apparantely they would all be CYOAs. That's just dense. Tell me, how many people do you think even care about such genre as CYOA nowadays?

But it is an indisputable fact they made a CYOA.

Lol no. For one, contrary to my (limited) experience of CYOAs, DE has free exploration. It's quite constrained sure but the game itself is short anyway. So, pray tell: why do you think DE belongs to CYOA genre, exactly?

Also, next time you try to dispute anything I said, quote or ping me, don't be a fag.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I know a guy who collects CYOA and I mean ALL CYOA (multiple cover copies, Fighting Fantasy & type genre, no mechanic just pick your path, etc etc). I'm not sure if he follows the digital market on this.

 

[Harthwain]

Green Day somehow made punk music and claimed they never listened to punk music. Maybe they played TTRPGs wrong. I don't know.

You certainly don't know, because when a death metal band makes death metal music and they claim they always did death metal music in their garage/basement, then there is no argument to be had. And they played tabletop for years, too, and even went so far as to show how they did it. At this point you're only making fool of yourself by using willful ignorance as your shield.

The labelling of special speech options and the assurance that they are always the best ones is already a decline in this regard as it abstracts the very sort of cerebral task that should be the domain of the player.

Agreed. And this is yet another reason why I like Disco Elysium for: succeeding in a skill check doesn't always produce desirable results and vice versa. Which means it's OK to fail, instead of reloading every failed check, as is the case in 99% of other cRPGs. I also agree with the labelling. I prefer to have special speech options hidden, because that way you aren't influenced by the fact that you got a special option and act more naturally.

 

[Tony]

Hey, guys. Let’s slow down. Why all the anger? We’re all reasonable adults with reasonable positions. I’m not saying RPGs can’t have puzzles. My only point was, the list (which was great) just needed the first point modified. Either to specify only player physical actions require a die roll (or some mechanic), or an asterisk to make an exception for puzzles. No reason for anger. I was just trying to help with the list.

I bet you're kind of guy to whom local top RPGs like Fallout/Arcanum/VTMB are RPGs only because they have combat, otherwise apparantely they would all be CYOAs. That's just dense. Tell me, how many people do you think even care about such genre as CYOA nowadays?

How would Fallout play with no ability to do combat? In a setting with slavers, thugs, super mutants, giant scorpions, vile monsters, and criminals, just walking around and talking and hugging seems rather silly.


I glad you guys were never the DM of any TTRPGs I’ve played.

DM: One guard stands between you and the vault. How do you proceed?

Me: I engage him in combat.

DM: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Slow down there, Hitler. What’s with all the toxic masculinity? The guard isn’t a fascist, so why not try a good approach? A sensible and fun approach.

Me: But, my character is a hardboiled ruffian. He would just kill him. Isn’t this an RPG? Shouldn’t my character have some agency?

DM: What are you, some kind of CIS binary straight white male? This isn’t that type of game. Here’s what you can do. You can a) seduce the guard, b) regale him with a story of how much you hate fascists, or, c) as seen in the movie MacGruber, you can strip naked, put a stick of celery up your butt, and walk back and forth in front of him like a robot to distract him.

Me: But, my character would never do any of that. This seems suspiciously like a CYOA game and not an RPG. Why doesn’t my character have agency?

DM: Your character is how I say he is! He’s a nonbinary antifa hero, and since there are no more fascists in this fantasy world, and everyone has the same political beliefs, there is no reason for violence, which only stems from fascism. Your character has no toxic masculinity at all, so pick one of the three choices I presented you, and realize you are playing a very highbrow RPG. Very highbrow. Look, you even have stats and skills, how could this not be an RPG? This is not a CYOA at all, even though it plays exactly like one. Stop being crazy. Let’s hug it out, bro! This is an talking adventure, not an action adventure.



Seriously, guys, there's no need for all the hostility and anger. It's okay if a CYOA has some RPG mechanics. It isn't the end of the world. Let's all just take a deep breath, relax, and accept I'm unequivocally right. At the very least, we can cordially agree to disagree, and agree we are all friends and mutually like and respect one another. What's far more important than fighting in a game, is not fighting on a forum, especially over our shared hobby.

 

[Vic]

How would Fallout play with no ability to do combat?

you can beat Fallout without killing anyone.

 

[Harthwain]

Seriously, guys, there's no need for all the hostility and anger. It's okay if a CYOA has some RPG mechanics. It isn't the end of the world. Let's all just take a deep breath, relax, and accept I'm unequivocally right. At the very least, we can cordially agree to disagree, and agree we are all friends and mutually like and respect one another. What's far more important than fighting in a game, is not fighting on a forum, especially over our shared hobby.

You know, I find this interesting. Because I don't think there is any anger present. But you seem to think so. My guess? You were trying to rile people up to be able to play "Mr Nice Guy". To put it simple: you're clearly patronising (read: you're being a dick). My sense of smell was tingling earlier when I noticed how overly friendly you attempted to be and I found that to be suspicious. This explains your strange behavior.

Funny thing - you failed to notice that people aren't angry yet assumed so regardless. Meaning you either see what you want to see (which proves this is all a provocation on your part) or simply mistake being blunt for being hostile. The latter is unlikely, since it was explained to you already, which leads to the former. Assuming, of course, that you have the capability to understand what you're reading (which I took for granted up to this point, perhaps mistakenly so).

Also, it's hard to be "unequivocally right" when you were proven wrong literally every single step of the way. Not only that, your reasoning couldn't hold even when I was using YOUR logic and arguments.

 

[ropetight]

DM: Your character is how I say he is! He’s a nonbinary antifa hero, and since there are no more fascists in this fantasy world, and everyone has the same political beliefs, there is no reason for violence, which only stems from fascism. Your character has no toxic masculinity at all, so pick one of the three choices I presented you, and realize you are playing a very highbrow RPG. Very highbrow. Look, you even have stats and skills, how could this not be an RPG? This is not a CYOA at all, even though it plays exactly like one. Stop being crazy. Let’s hug it out, bro! This is an talking adventure, not an action adventure.

You are right, I never played whatever this was.

 

[Tony]

How would Fallout play with no ability to do combat?

you can beat Fallout without killing anyone.

Alternatively, you can kill everyone. Agency. I said ability to do, not necessity.

You know, I find this interesting. Because I don't think there is any anger present.

Do you really not see any anger or hostility in this thread at all? I guess this is something we'll have to agree to disagree on. If you showed this thread to a normal person that has never been to this site, and asked them, "Is there hostility and anger in this thread?" do you really think they'd say this is a happy, pleasant thread? This is an angry and hostile website. Please tell me you at least agree this website is more angry and hostile than most websites?

your reasoning couldn't hold even when I was using YOUR logic and arguments.

But you didn't. Instead of addressing my logic, you made up your own, separate, different logic.

Is it possible for a group of people to try and make X to instead make Y? Yes. You are saying this is impossible.

For the rest, please see my example of how a TTRPG campaign would go with one of you CYOA-types as DM.

I'd like to bow out of this discussion. I don't think anything fruitful will come of it. People are entrenched. We'll just run in circles. I'm sorry I don't agree, but I don't, and I never will, because I've played plenty of TTRPGs and CYOAs.

I'm glad there is a game you guys really enjoy, and I'm glad for all of you it was popular enough to spawn a bunch of copycat games for you to all enjoy in the future, and you guys found a genre that resonates with you. I wish you all well, and a happy and long life. Peace.

 

[Harthwain]

Do you really not see any anger or hostility in this thread at all?

Maybe you're refering to someone who is on my ignore list, but when I checked - to make sure - it didn't show me much between your posts.

But you didn't. Instead of addressing my logic, you made up your own, separate, different logic.

Is it possible for a group of people to try and make X to instead make Y? Yes. You are saying this is impossible.

Another logical fallacy - I am not saying that it isn't possible to make X when trying to make Y. I am saying they made X when trying to make X. I also backed up my point by providing links in which developers explained how they designed the game and why it's an RPG, whereas you provided... what? An opinion? Sorry, but your argument can't withstand the power of the actual logic and proof.

For the rest, please see my example of how a TTRPG campaign would go with one of you CYOA-types as DM.

Your example? It's a bunch of nonsense. You're only showing you're not understanding the reason why cRPGs are different from PnP RPGs in their execution (especially the narrative-driven ones). I could just as well complain that Icewind Dale doesn't give me enough non-combat options to justify calling it an RPG. Sadly video games have their limitations, compared to having a real-life GM with human brain.

Ironically enough though, I could argue that a text-based RPG is closer to being the true tabletop RPG than you'd think. Provided that it could generate content on the fly AND maintain coherency (as well as keeping track of the game state). Personally, my best bet for a good cRPG lies in systems and minimal narrative (mostly in from of loose events or objectives that can be accomplished in free-form manner). I think Project Witchstone looks very promising.

 

[Vic]

Do you really not see any anger or hostility in this thread at all? I guess this is something we'll have to agree to disagree on. If you showed this thread to a normal person that has never been to this site, and asked them, "Is there hostility and anger in this thread?" do you really think they'd say this is a happy, pleasant thread? This is an angry and hostile website. Please tell me you at least agree this website is more angry and hostile than most websites?

dude, you've been whining about how hostile people are in almost every one of your posts, yet you are the one who keeps arguing and saying you're right and the other poster is "patently false and incorrect". You are delusional and a faggot, go and kill yourself.