Do you consider Disco Elysium an RPG?

[gurugeorge]

Good argument, but just to Pilpul it for a moment, unless the combat is scripted with a predetermined outcome, or with "plot armor" in mind, it's necessarily going to be a system (i.e. you made x number of evasive decisions in the past, you get a certain percentage of evasion ability). All you're talking about is the difference between ways of interfacing with that system - the one with a dedicated UI, with everything up front in terms of exposed percentages, etc., the other with irrevocable decisions and "hidden" percentages, etc., made in the course of the story.

And that's where Disco completely fell apart for me. It seems like there is a character system but it doesn't really do anything as it's not tied to any rules in the game world.

I would have called it an RPG on my first run, but after trying it again it becomes apparent that everything is an illusion and the only thing that changes is flavor text. Your actions have precious little influence on the world. It's an exercise in futility. This complete lack of agency fits the narrative of a loser cop in a world that is slowly losing a battle with entropy. I understand that. I can even appreciate that. But it doesn't change the fact that the game is a linear narrative full of Biowarian choices. Very well written choices, but still ineffectual and directly convergent.

The fight has maybe one or two parameters that are predetermined by previous actions. Almost nothing that comes before has any bearing on it. What does, only influences the specific flavor text you get. Hardie boys help out? Different flavor text. Same outcome. Have a gun? Different text. Slightly different outcome. Have two guns and two bullets? Syke! Changes absolutely nothing. Negotiations always break down, violence is unavoidable. Letting Klaasje go? Changes nothing. Killing Raul? Changes nothing. Craft a molotov instead of using a gun? Changes nothing! Get the cool armor? You get hit instead of dodging a bullet. So, changes nothing! Kim dies? Syke! He's not really dead!

It's funny how it is sometimes compared to Titan Outpost. Call it what you will, I'm fine with people not considering it an RPG even though it was designed as such, but the games are absolutely nothing alike. TO is a mechanically complex game with deep simulationist aspects. DE is shallow as a puddle. DE is amazingly well executed, but from a development standpoint a game like that is much easier to make, or at least has different pitfalls. It hinges almost entirely on Kurvitz's writing and to a lesser degree the quirky art style. Take that away and you have nothing but a really limited point&click adventure. The skill system with an inner monologue is awesome, but again, that's pretty much Kurvitz's writing doing the heavy lifting.

I can't for the life of me imagine why ZA/UM decided to alienate and ditch the guy that made the game what it was.

PS I still like Disco for what it is. Money well spent. Not slagging on it in any way. I just wish I never tried replaying it. That was pretty disappointing.

Ah that's disappointing to hear. Ofc one wondered if that would be the case. I've seen lots of people say it can play very differently, but that could be just people noticing different flavour text. If the effect of your previous decisions is as irrelevant (e.g. to the final combat) as you say, that's pretty bad and not how the game presents itself.

In which case my opinion would veer more to the general opinion here. Still an enjoyable game, but less of an RPG than I thought.

 

[Darkozric]

Money well spent

lol If I had given money for this I would be very pissed off. When I finished it, the first thought that came to mind was "Shiieet, at least I download it for free".

 

[MF]

It's funny how it is sometimes compared to Titan Outpost. Call it what you will, I'm fine with people not considering it an RPG even though it was designed as such [...]

But does it have combat?

There are a couple of fights that are resolved in a similar way to DE, but I wouldn't call that combat as it is understood in this context because it's not a system.

I don't know anything about Titan Outpost, but Disco Elysium is a narrative-driven game. Yes, it means it has its own pitfalls and one of them is related (as you yourself have noticed) to the Critical Path approach that plagues the narrative-driven cRPGs. But trying to take away an aspect of the game doesn't really make much sense in trying to define it as an RPG when it's the very element that does exactly that.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Are you saying that the fact that the game has a railroaded narrative is the very element that makes it an RPG?

 

[Harthwain]

There are a couple of fights that are resolved in a similar way to DE, but I wouldn't call that combat as it is understood in this context because it's not a system.

Then, according to some people, your game is not an RPG. Ironically enough this is the very same argument they also use to "prove" Disco Elysium is not one, too. And both games were designed to be RPGs. So next time just throw in some shit combat and your game will automatically be an RPG, even if you won't do anything else with it!

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Are you saying that the fact that the game has a railroaded narrative is the very element that makes it an RPG?

No. What makes Disco Elysium an RPG - above all - are its RPG elements (otherwise it would be no different from The Wolf Among Us or similar works).

However, in order for your [RPG] system to do something it needs something else to work with: the input. The reason the narrative is railroaded is the consequence of this being a traditional cRPG (in the vein of Planescape: Torment), where the aspect of interaction is handled via text UI. But consider this: is interacting via text not a form of interaction? And how is this kind of interaction different from telling your GM what you do in a tabletop? Sure, in tabletop you have a lot more freedom and in a narrative-driven game you're extremely limited, but this is precisely why there is a "c" before "RPG" in "cRPG", no?

 

[Victor1234]

RPG comes from wargame is incorrect, or rather only a part of the story that Gygax / TSR liked to emphasize for obvious reasons.

The first proto-RPGs were David Wesely's 1970 Braunstein games (from the name of the fictional town where the first one of these happened) and those were non-combat diplomatic/management games were people played a role. Well, technically the first one was a diplomatic/management/wargame where the players never reached wargame part. The following ones dropped the wargame part. Each “session” was its own indépendant game.

A 1971 Braunstein called Black Moor had the players as lords in fantasy world inspired by Lord of the Rings, and as lords they did some diplomacy and some fighting, including at one point in the dungeon of Castle Blackmoor… using the Chainmail ruleset.

Black Moor was the first RPG and also a game that Dave Arneson played. The first D&D ruleset was in 1974 and Gygax pretended he invented RPG from that point onward. Arneson never did.

Dave Wesely started running his Napoleonic-era Braunstein games in 1968 and continued running them into 1970 when he was called up for military service. Duane Jenkins ran a series of Brownstone games at the beginning of 1971, which were inspired by Braunstein but with an Old West setting and importantly the addition of persistence between games in terms of characters and developments within the setting. Soon after that, Dave Arneson was inspired to run similar sessions in his Blackmoor campaign, with the players exploring dungeons beneath Blackmoor, which so enthralled them that they entirely neglected the strategic campaign with tactical miniatures battles that had been the original genre. Aside from establishing exploration-related aspects, Arneson's Blackmoor campaign was also the first to add character progression, and these elements combined with the existing elements of a squad-based tactics game to form the RPG genre.

Good info there! His name and military stuff brings up some interesting results.

https://muleabides.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/dave-wesely-on-dd-was-a-wargame/

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Valve has SETTLED this debate.

DE's on there, baby!

 

[Mauman]

Valve has SETTLED this debate.

DE's on there, baby!

Steam considers this to be an rpg.



Do you?

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Steam considers this to be an rpg.



Do you?

Weird example, considering that literally HORIZON ZERO DAWN is on the sale's front page. Princess Maker-likes are way more RPG-ish than that action-adventure shit.

 

[Lily "Miss July" Ferrari]

This communist life simulator is the worst piece of shit ever made in the history of video games.

 

[Harthwain]

Aaaaw how unfortunate that you can't delete accounts.
I joined only yesterday and I already understood my terrible mistake.
I'll never post on this shitty website again. Fucking retards.

 

[Gahbreeil]

There is no combat - It is not an RPG by the definition set upon the release of the first RPG.

 

[MerchantKing]

No combat = not an rpg

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Interactive adventure Visual Novel game with minigame fun?

 

[Gahbreeil]

Interactive adventure Visual Novel game with minigame fun?

Adventure Game with RPG elements. C&C as well as Character Progression.

 

[gurugeorge]

Interactive adventure Visual Novel game with minigame fun?

Adventure Game with RPG elements. C&C as well as Character Progression.

Yeah, it feels like a genuine hybrid to me, I don't think you can say it's only one or the other.

 

[lvl 2 Blue Slime]

If you aren't killing monsters, looting them and levelling up, it's not an RPG.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Interactive adventure Visual Novel game with minigame fun?

Fortunately DE isn't a Real Pedo Game like Undertale.

And that's always a win.

 

[HappyDaddyWow!]

Loved this game but on a repeat playthrough the magic is kind of ruined when you realize how linear it actually is, the main story gives you the illusion of choice when in actuality it's very on rails and segments play out basically the same way with a little altered dialogue dependent on what skill check you passed. It's not like there's multiple ways to solve the case or anything, and really your build only influences what sidequests you can access or complete.

As for people talking about the lack of combat, there's plenty of TTRPGs that are basically devoid of combat so it's kind of a blockhead perspective.

 

[Shaki]

Loved this game but on a repeat playthrough the magic is kind of ruined when you realize how linear it actually is, the main story gives you the illusion of choice when in actuality it's very on rails and segments play out basically the same way

Yes, because it's a single route visual novel. You're there to be fed a story, and that's it - some fake "gameplay" it has, doesn't actually relate to the game in any way, it's like videos on TikTok having Subway Surfers or some shit as visual, while some retard is talking in the background. It's purely there to keep zoomers' attention while they're being fed the story.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

No, but time will ultimately tell. The question is whether there's a surge of DE clones in development, and whether they get lumped into the RPG category on Steam or shoved over into Adventure or VN.

As for people talking about the lack of combat, there's plenty of TTRPGs that are basically devoid of combat so it's kind of a blockhead perspective.

Welcome to the forum, may your first post be a non-retarded one.

Oh. Too late.

For the record, PnP and cRPGs diverged over three decades ago, largely becoming their own thing. Consider that Zork was also an attempt to model D&D into videogame format, spinning off into the text-adventure and later point-and-click genres, yet no one considers Escape from Monkey Island an RPG. Things can have a common origin and end up totally different.

Those non-combat PnP games basically don't sell, and are designed for the same reason that Disco Elysium was: bitter attempts by butthurt storyfags to do away with real gameplay in favor of pretending to be a gay vampire princess and feeling each other up while taking ecstasy.

 

[Skinwalker]

I have never played Disco Elysium, but I condemn it.

 

[Harthwain]

Loved this game but on a repeat playthrough the magic is kind of ruined when you realize how linear it actually is, the main story gives you the illusion of choice when in actuality it's very on rails and segments play out basically the same way

Yes, because it's a single route visual novel. You're there to be fed a story, and that's it - some fake "gameplay" it has, doesn't actually relate to the game in any way

The exact same argument can be used against quite of a few RPGs, including Planescape: Torment (the ultimate Codex's RPG). This is the result of having heavy narrative-driven games, instead of gameplay-driven ones. Even games like Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale are guilty of this.

No, but time will ultimately tell. The question is whether there's a surge of DE clones in development, and whether they get lumped into the RPG category on Steam or shoved over into Adventure or VN.

There are already a few games being developed that try to mimic Disco Elysium. Some are even promising (Esoteric Ebb).

 

[Lord_Potato]

No, but time will ultimately tell. The question is whether there's a surge of DE clones in development, and whether they get lumped into the RPG category on Steam or shoved over into Adventure or VN.

There are already a few games being developed that try to mimic Disco Elysium. Some are even promising (Esoteric Ebb).

Also, Pentiment (more of an adventure) and Citizen Sleeper.

In Bavarian Tale you can fight but it's very barebones and you don't need it to solve the main crime and most other sidequests.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

It's too verbose and slow to pass as a Role-Playing (aka Life larping) game. But then again, I've yet to see a single CRPG that gets conversations right.

 

[Shaki]

The exact same argument can be used against quite of a few RPGs, including Planescape: Torment (the ultimate Codex's RPG). This is the result of having heavy narrative-driven games, instead of gameplay-driven ones. Even games like Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale are guilty of this.

PST has combat and dialogues are directly impacting the game and its outcomes, there is far more exploration, sidequests, equipment management, leveling and character building etc, and mechanics are closely related to the narrative and create a coherent whole.

Still, I did say in the past that I also consider PST closer to a visual novel than an RPG in a classic sense. It's obvious that at the core it's still a CYOA, and all the other layers were added on top of it as an afterthought. I just think they did enough work to fit their CYOA into an RPG genre, to make the line blurry enough that it's hard and pretty pointless to argue against it being an RPG. Disco meanwhile, isn't even approaching that line, it has absolutely nothing to do with RPGs other than basic aesthetics.

To use a metaphor, PST is a hypothetical future tranny who with the power of science, became physically and biologically indistinguishable from a woman, only differences are in his brain - there is obviously still space for discussion about what he is, but that discussion is mostly philosophical in nature at this point. DE meanwhile, is obviously a buff man in a skirt.