Do you consider Disco Elysium an RPG?

[kangaxx]

This is an angry and hostile website. Please tell me you at least agree this website is more angry and hostile than most websites?

You need to have thick skin to be on the Codex, yes.

 

[Camel]

Vic and Harthwain showing Tony the newbie how friendly the Codexers are.

 

[Harthwain]

There's no 2017-2021 poll

There are voters and votes and percentages related to them.

and the 2019 GOTY poll was not limited to RPGs. Slay the Spire is #3 in that poll and I don't think anybody would call that game an RPG.

Let's say that's true. What part of "Best RPGs of 2017-2021" is too hard for you to understand?

You don't like the results?

I have already provided all the necessary data. You need help that I can't give you.

It's only a matter of time until he puts me on ignore too so he can continue living in his little fantasy world

The fact that you keep whining for attention after telling me to not respond, because you "won't reciprocate" is pathetic. I assure you that the irony of your many statements is not lost on me. It could be lost on you though.

 

[gurugeorge]

[...]very RPG-ish (because dependent for its outcomes on prior decisions made in the course of the story)[...]
[...]If the next game had more combat instances, would that push it more towards an RPG in some peoples' eyes here?

So the outcomes are based, not on gameplay, but on narrative choices? Like a sort of branching story path? Like one might find in a VN?

The only difference between stopping for a minute, at the moment we call "leveling up", going to what we call a "character screen" and adding a point to whatever, and having the same point added by making a decision in the course of the story, is that the former is lazy on the part of the developers, and the latter is a way of building a character that's better integrated into the game

I exaggerate to get the point across ofc, and I have nothing against character screens, but I don't think having your character built by decisions you make in the course of a story makes the game not-an-RPG.

I go back to my hobby-horse about RPGs being games that are defined by their fail states (mostly due to technological/time/resource limitations) on the way to making the perfect, ideal adventure simulator

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

We need more rage and arguments. More autism and retardation. Trolling for postwhoredom is the codexian way.
MORE VN CYOA!!!

MOOOORREEEEE DISCO

MOOOOORRRRREEEEEE!!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!




... well, for some...

Now play it since "IT RPG!"

 

[procrastinator]

 

[Victor1234]

I don't know what kind of game it is, but I've tried to play it twice so far (the original and final cut) and couldn't bother going past where you find the dude hanging from the tree. It's just so mind numbingly boring and ugly to look at to boot. Edgy dialogue, you're an alcoholic cop with inner demons, because clearly that's never been done before.....click stuff in the environment to pick it up or interact with it. How did this game get so much press and sales?

The worst part is, I've played this exact game before and liked that because it had a plot and good lore (I never knew the late Soviet Union had such a neo-Nazi problem). You were a commie detective solving a murder with a conspiracy behind it and went through your dialogue options, picked up cocaine and strippers and thumbed your nose at the authority figures above you. It was called KGB, from 1992:

 

[luj1]

You will never be a real RPG. You have no combat, you have no exploration, you have no customization. You are a visual novel twisted by commies into a crude mockery of nature’s perfection.

All the “validation” you get is two-faced and half-hearted. Behind your back people mock you. Your creators are disgusted and ashamed of you, your “fans” laugh at your ghoulish appearance behind closed doors.

Players are utterly repulsed by you. 50 of years of RPG evolution have allowed men to sniff out frauds with incredible efficiency. Even RPGs who “pass” look uncanny and unnatural to a man. Your quest structure is a dead giveaway. And even if you manage to get a drunk guy to play you, he’ll turn tail and bolt the second he gets a whiff of your diseased, infected gameplay.

You will never be playable. You wrench out a fake smile every single morning and tell yourself you're a rpg, but deep inside you feel the depression creeping up like a weed, ready to crush you under the unbearable weight.

Eventually it’ll be too much to bear - you’ll buy a rope, tie a noose, put it around your neck, and change steam tags. Your fans will find you, heartbroken but relieved that they no longer have to pretend with the unbearable shame and disappointment. They’ll bury you with a headstone marked with your real genre, and every passerby for the rest of eternity will know a visual novel is buried there. Your body will decay and go back to the dust, and all that will remain of your legacy is a skeleton that is unmistakably adventure game with no puzzles.

This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no turning back.

I like this.

This flood of fake RPGs is merely a marketing charade that went too far.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Vic and Harthwain showing Tony the newbie how friendly the Codexers are.

Welcome to RPG Codex!

 

[luj1]

How did this game get so much press and sales?

Hipsters fell for megalomaniacal claims about alleged RPG revolution.

Big claims (only claims) + admittedly great artstyle

 

[luj1]

It's just so mind numbingly boring

Yes exactly. I tried it for a few hours and wondered when is the gameplay going to make an appearance.

 

[mondblut]

How would Fallout play with no ability to do combat?

you can beat Fallout without killing anyone.

You "can". But you do have the ability.

A game that explicitly forbids me from punching an NPC instead of clicking his hyperlinks is no RPG, period.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Casual sex bitches. Let's fuck til you drop!

 

[WhiteShark]

The only difference between stopping for a minute, at the moment we call "leveling up", going to what we call a "character screen" and adding a point to whatever, and having the same point added by making a decision in the course of the story, is that the former is lazy on the part of the developers, and the latter is a way of building a character that's better integrated into the game

I exaggerate to get the point across ofc, and I have nothing against character screens, but I don't think having your character built by decisions you make in the course of a story makes the game not-an-RPG.

I'm not criticizing the idea of working character building into C&C. That could be done well, I imagine, though it does lock you into a more narrative focus. What I do object to is this:

The one climactic instance of "proper" combat in Disco Elysium was fucking superb, really gripping, and very RPG-ish (because dependent for its outcomes on prior decisions made in the course of the story)[...]
If the next game had more combat instances, would that push it more towards an RPG in some peoples' eyes here?

A scripted combat whose outcome is determined by previous choices is not """RPG-ish""", it's the textbook example of VN/CYOA storybranching. You then propose that adding more of the same would make it more likely to be regarded as an RPG, but I already addressed that in my first post in this thread:

An RPG need not force the player to do combat to be an RPG, but combat must be an option. Take note, as well, that anybody arguing for the necessity of combat isn't advocating for a flavorful narrative description of combat but for a combat system, a consistent tool by which the player can interact with the game world.

DE doesn't have combat in the RPG sense. It has combat scenes in the VN sense. The game could consist entirely of these and it still wouldn't be an RPG because there would be no combat system, only dialogue choices.

 

[Darkozric]

Vic and Harthwain showing Tony the newbie how friendly the Codexers are.

Welcome to RPG Codex!

We have so many paper graph autists, and no one is willing to give a codex map to newbies, bunch of faggots all of you.

 

[Jasede]

If I gave them a map it would only mark the quickest route to the exit.

Everyone new is bad. Just look at the faggot in this thread. Why is he a patron if he's complaining about an "aggressive and hostile tone?"

New posters make me sick.

 

[Vic]

Everyone new is bad. Just look at the faggot in this thread. Why is he a patron if he's complaining about an "aggressive and hostile tone?"

to shill for his light novel in his signature would be my guess

 

[gurugeorge]

The only difference between stopping for a minute, at the moment we call "leveling up", going to what we call a "character screen" and adding a point to whatever, and having the same point added by making a decision in the course of the story, is that the former is lazy on the part of the developers, and the latter is a way of building a character that's better integrated into the game

I exaggerate to get the point across ofc, and I have nothing against character screens, but I don't think having your character built by decisions you make in the course of a story makes the game not-an-RPG.

I'm not criticizing the idea of working character building into C&C. That could be done well, I imagine, though it does lock you into a more narrative focus. What I do object to is this:

The one climactic instance of "proper" combat in Disco Elysium was fucking superb, really gripping, and very RPG-ish (because dependent for its outcomes on prior decisions made in the course of the story)[...]
If the next game had more combat instances, would that push it more towards an RPG in some peoples' eyes here?

A scripted combat whose outcome is determined by previous choices is not """RPG-ish""", it's the textbook example of VN/CYOA storybranching. You then propose that adding more of the same would make it more likely to be regarded as an RPG, but I already addressed that in my first post in this thread:

An RPG need not force the player to do combat to be an RPG, but combat must be an option. Take note, as well, that anybody arguing for the necessity of combat isn't advocating for a flavorful narrative description of combat but for a combat system, a consistent tool by which the player can interact with the game world.

DE doesn't have combat in the RPG sense. It has combat scenes in the VN sense. The game could consist entirely of these and it still wouldn't be an RPG because there would be no combat system, only dialogue choices.

Good argument, but just to Pilpul it for a moment, unless the combat is scripted with a predetermined outcome, or with "plot armor" in mind, it's necessarily going to be a system (i.e. you made x number of evasive decisions in the past, you get a certain percentage of evasion ability). All you're talking about is the difference between ways of interfacing with that system - the one with a dedicated UI, with everything up front in terms of exposed percentages, etc., the other with irrevocable decisions and "hidden" percentages, etc., made in the course of the story.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Vic and Harthwain showing Tony the newbie how friendly the Codexers are.

Welcome to RPG Codex!

We have so many paper graph autists, and no one is willing to give a codex map to newbies, bunch of faggots all of you.

Oh, what next? A quest compass?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Isn't that sort of what ! And ? are used for?

 

[MF]

Good argument, but just to Pilpul it for a moment, unless the combat is scripted with a predetermined outcome, or with "plot armor" in mind, it's necessarily going to be a system (i.e. you made x number of evasive decisions in the past, you get a certain percentage of evasion ability). All you're talking about is the difference between ways of interfacing with that system - the one with a dedicated UI, with everything up front in terms of exposed percentages, etc., the other with irrevocable decisions and "hidden" percentages, etc., made in the course of the story.

And that's where Disco completely fell apart for me. It seems like there is a character system but it doesn't really do anything as it's not tied to any rules in the game world.

I would have called it an RPG on my first run, but after trying it again it becomes apparent that everything is an illusion and the only thing that changes is flavor text. Your actions have precious little influence on the world. It's an exercise in futility. This complete lack of agency fits the narrative of a loser cop in a world that is slowly losing a battle with entropy. I understand that. I can even appreciate that. But it doesn't change the fact that the game is a linear narrative full of Biowarian choices. Very well written choices, but still ineffectual and directly convergent.

The fight has maybe one or two parameters that are predetermined by previous actions. Almost nothing that comes before has any bearing on it. What does, only influences the specific flavor text you get. Hardie boys help out? Different flavor text. Same outcome. Have a gun? Different text. Slightly different outcome. Have two guns and two bullets? Syke! Changes absolutely nothing. Negotiations always break down, violence is unavoidable. Letting Klaasje go? Changes nothing. Killing Raul? Changes nothing. Craft a molotov instead of using a gun? Changes nothing! Get the cool armor? You get hit instead of dodging a bullet. So, changes nothing! Kim dies? Syke! He's not really dead!

It's funny how it is sometimes compared to Titan Outpost. Call it what you will, I'm fine with people not considering it an RPG even though it was designed as such, but the games are absolutely nothing alike. TO is a mechanically complex game with deep simulationist aspects. DE is shallow as a puddle. DE is amazingly well executed, but from a development standpoint a game like that is much easier to make, or at least has different pitfalls. It hinges almost entirely on Kurvitz's writing and to a lesser degree the quirky art style. Take that away and you have nothing but a really limited point&click adventure. The skill system with an inner monologue is awesome, but again, that's pretty much Kurvitz's writing doing the heavy lifting.

I can't for the life of me imagine why ZA/UM decided to alienate and ditch the guy that made the game what it was.

PS I still like Disco for what it is. Money well spent. Not slagging on it in any way. I just wish I never tried replaying it. That was pretty disappointing.

 

[Harthwain]

It's funny how it is sometimes compared to Titan Outpost. Call it what you will, I'm fine with people not considering it an RPG even though it was designed as such [...]

But does it have combat?

TO is a mechanically complex game with deep simulationist aspects. DE is shallow as a puddle. DE is amazingly well executed, but from a development standpoint a game like that is much easier to make, or at least has different pitfalls. It hinges almost entirely on Kurvitz's writing and to a lesser degree the quirky art style. Take that away and you have nothing but a really limited point&click adventure. The skill system with an inner monologue is awesome, but again, that's pretty much Kurvitz's writing doing the heavy lifting.

I feel like you're missing the point here. You can have a [video] game that ain't an RPG. It is also possible to have a [video] game that's an RPG.

I don't know anything about Titan Outpost, but Disco Elysium is a narrative-driven game. Yes, it means it has its own pitfalls and one of them is related (as you yourself have noticed) to the Critical Path approach that plagues the narrative-driven cRPGs. But trying to take away an aspect of the game doesn't really make much sense in trying to define it as an RPG when it's the very element that does exactly that.

Contrast this with Pentiment by Josh Sawyer, who said his game has "light RPG elements" but is a "narrative adventure" and is in no way supposed to stand up to Disco Elysium, which was designed as an RPG from ground-up. He even drove the point home by saying "BTW, something that has come up a lot is the idea that Pentiment is like Disco Elysium or inspired by DE. That's only true in the sense that DE is a great game and inspirational in a broad sense". This coming from a guy who has been designing undisputed cRPGs for years (regardless of how shitty or good people think they were) means something.

 

[gurugeorge]

Good argument, but just to Pilpul it for a moment, unless the combat is scripted with a predetermined outcome, or with "plot armor" in mind, it's necessarily going to be a system (i.e. you made x number of evasive decisions in the past, you get a certain percentage of evasion ability). All you're talking about is the difference between ways of interfacing with that system - the one with a dedicated UI, with everything up front in terms of exposed percentages, etc., the other with irrevocable decisions and "hidden" percentages, etc., made in the course of the story.

And that's where Disco completely fell apart for me. It seems like there is a character system but it doesn't really do anything as it's not tied to any rules in the game world.

I would have called it an RPG on my first run, but after trying it again it becomes apparent that everything is an illusion and the only thing that changes is flavor text. Your actions have precious little influence on the world. It's an exercise in futility. This complete lack of agency fits the narrative of a loser cop in a world that is slowly losing a battle with entropy. I understand that. I can even appreciate that. But it doesn't change the fact that the game is a linear narrative full of Biowarian choices. Very well written choices, but still ineffectual and directly convergent.

The fight has maybe one or two parameters that are predetermined by previous actions. Almost nothing that comes before has any bearing on it. What does, only influences the specific flavor text you get. Hardie boys help out? Different flavor text. Same outcome. Have a gun? Different text. Slightly different outcome. Have two guns and two bullets? Syke! Changes absolutely nothing. Negotiations always break down, violence is unavoidable. Letting Klaasje go? Changes nothing. Killing Raul? Changes nothing. Craft a molotov instead of using a gun? Changes nothing! Get the cool armor? You get hit instead of dodging a bullet. So, changes nothing! Kim dies? Syke! He's not really dead!

It's funny how it is sometimes compared to Titan Outpost. Call it what you will, I'm fine with people not considering it an RPG even though it was designed as such, but the games are absolutely nothing alike. TO is a mechanically complex game with deep simulationist aspects. DE is shallow as a puddle. DE is amazingly well executed, but from a development standpoint a game like that is much easier to make, or at least has different pitfalls. It hinges almost entirely on Kurvitz's writing and to a lesser degree the quirky art style. Take that away and you have nothing but a really limited point&click adventure. The skill system with an inner monologue is awesome, but again, that's pretty much Kurvitz's writing doing the heavy lifting.

I can't for the life of me imagine why ZA/UM decided to alienate and ditch the guy that made the game what it was.

PS I still like Disco for what it is. Money well spent. Not slagging on it in any way. I just wish I never tried replaying it. That was pretty disappointing.

Ah that's disappointing to hear. Ofc one wondered if that would be the case. I've seen lots of people say it can play very differently, but that could be just people noticing different flavour text. If the effect of your previous decisions is as irrelevant (e.g. to the final combat) as you say, that's pretty bad and not how the game presents itself.

In which case my opinion would veer more to the general opinion here. Still an enjoyable game, but less of an RPG than I thought.

 

[Darkozric]

Money well spent

lol If I had given money for this I would be very pissed off. When I finished it, the first thought that came to mind was "Shiieet, at least I download it for free".

 

[MF]

It's funny how it is sometimes compared to Titan Outpost. Call it what you will, I'm fine with people not considering it an RPG even though it was designed as such [...]

But does it have combat?

There are a couple of fights that are resolved in a similar way to DE, but I wouldn't call that combat as it is understood in this context because it's not a system.

I don't know anything about Titan Outpost, but Disco Elysium is a narrative-driven game. Yes, it means it has its own pitfalls and one of them is related (as you yourself have noticed) to the Critical Path approach that plagues the narrative-driven cRPGs. But trying to take away an aspect of the game doesn't really make much sense in trying to define it as an RPG when it's the very element that does exactly that.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Are you saying that the fact that the game has a railroaded narrative is the very element that makes it an RPG?