Do you consider Disco Elysium an RPG?

[Harthwain]

There are a couple of fights that are resolved in a similar way to DE, but I wouldn't call that combat as it is understood in this context because it's not a system.

Then, according to some people, your game is not an RPG. Ironically enough this is the very same argument they also use to "prove" Disco Elysium is not one, too. And both games were designed to be RPGs. So next time just throw in some shit combat and your game will automatically be an RPG, even if you won't do anything else with it!

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Are you saying that the fact that the game has a railroaded narrative is the very element that makes it an RPG?

No. What makes Disco Elysium an RPG - above all - are its RPG elements (otherwise it would be no different from The Wolf Among Us or similar works).

However, in order for your [RPG] system to do something it needs something else to work with: the input. The reason the narrative is railroaded is the consequence of this being a traditional cRPG (in the vein of Planescape: Torment), where the aspect of interaction is handled via text UI. But consider this: is interacting via text not a form of interaction? And how is this kind of interaction different from telling your GM what you do in a tabletop? Sure, in tabletop you have a lot more freedom and in a narrative-driven game you're extremely limited, but this is precisely why there is a "c" before "RPG" in "cRPG", no?

 

[Victor1234]

RPG comes from wargame is incorrect, or rather only a part of the story that Gygax / TSR liked to emphasize for obvious reasons.

The first proto-RPGs were David Wesely's 1970 Braunstein games (from the name of the fictional town where the first one of these happened) and those were non-combat diplomatic/management games were people played a role. Well, technically the first one was a diplomatic/management/wargame where the players never reached wargame part. The following ones dropped the wargame part. Each “session” was its own indépendant game.

A 1971 Braunstein called Black Moor had the players as lords in fantasy world inspired by Lord of the Rings, and as lords they did some diplomacy and some fighting, including at one point in the dungeon of Castle Blackmoor… using the Chainmail ruleset.

Black Moor was the first RPG and also a game that Dave Arneson played. The first D&D ruleset was in 1974 and Gygax pretended he invented RPG from that point onward. Arneson never did.

Dave Wesely started running his Napoleonic-era Braunstein games in 1968 and continued running them into 1970 when he was called up for military service. Duane Jenkins ran a series of Brownstone games at the beginning of 1971, which were inspired by Braunstein but with an Old West setting and importantly the addition of persistence between games in terms of characters and developments within the setting. Soon after that, Dave Arneson was inspired to run similar sessions in his Blackmoor campaign, with the players exploring dungeons beneath Blackmoor, which so enthralled them that they entirely neglected the strategic campaign with tactical miniatures battles that had been the original genre. Aside from establishing exploration-related aspects, Arneson's Blackmoor campaign was also the first to add character progression, and these elements combined with the existing elements of a squad-based tactics game to form the RPG genre.

Good info there! His name and military stuff brings up some interesting results.

https://muleabides.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/dave-wesely-on-dd-was-a-wargame/

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Valve has SETTLED this debate.

DE's on there, baby!

 

[Mauman]

Valve has SETTLED this debate.

DE's on there, baby!

Steam considers this to be an rpg.



Do you?

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Steam considers this to be an rpg.



Do you?

Weird example, considering that literally HORIZON ZERO DAWN is on the sale's front page. Princess Maker-likes are way more RPG-ish than that action-adventure shit.

 

[Lily "Miss July" Ferrari]

This communist life simulator is the worst piece of shit ever made in the history of video games.

 

[Harthwain]

Aaaaw how unfortunate that you can't delete accounts.
I joined only yesterday and I already understood my terrible mistake.
I'll never post on this shitty website again. Fucking retards.

 

[Gahbreeil]

There is no combat - It is not an RPG by the definition set upon the release of the first RPG.

 

[MerchantKing]

No combat = not an rpg

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Interactive adventure Visual Novel game with minigame fun?

 

[Gahbreeil]

Interactive adventure Visual Novel game with minigame fun?

Adventure Game with RPG elements. C&C as well as Character Progression.

 

[gurugeorge]

Interactive adventure Visual Novel game with minigame fun?

Adventure Game with RPG elements. C&C as well as Character Progression.

Yeah, it feels like a genuine hybrid to me, I don't think you can say it's only one or the other.

 

[lvl 2 Blue Slime]

If you aren't killing monsters, looting them and levelling up, it's not an RPG.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Interactive adventure Visual Novel game with minigame fun?

Fortunately DE isn't a Real Pedo Game like Undertale.

And that's always a win.

 

[HappyDaddyWow!]

Loved this game but on a repeat playthrough the magic is kind of ruined when you realize how linear it actually is, the main story gives you the illusion of choice when in actuality it's very on rails and segments play out basically the same way with a little altered dialogue dependent on what skill check you passed. It's not like there's multiple ways to solve the case or anything, and really your build only influences what sidequests you can access or complete.

As for people talking about the lack of combat, there's plenty of TTRPGs that are basically devoid of combat so it's kind of a blockhead perspective.

 

[Shaki]

Loved this game but on a repeat playthrough the magic is kind of ruined when you realize how linear it actually is, the main story gives you the illusion of choice when in actuality it's very on rails and segments play out basically the same way

Yes, because it's a single route visual novel. You're there to be fed a story, and that's it - some fake "gameplay" it has, doesn't actually relate to the game in any way, it's like videos on TikTok having Subway Surfers or some shit as visual, while some retard is talking in the background. It's purely there to keep zoomers' attention while they're being fed the story.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

No, but time will ultimately tell. The question is whether there's a surge of DE clones in development, and whether they get lumped into the RPG category on Steam or shoved over into Adventure or VN.

As for people talking about the lack of combat, there's plenty of TTRPGs that are basically devoid of combat so it's kind of a blockhead perspective.

Welcome to the forum, may your first post be a non-retarded one.

Oh. Too late.

For the record, PnP and cRPGs diverged over three decades ago, largely becoming their own thing. Consider that Zork was also an attempt to model D&D into videogame format, spinning off into the text-adventure and later point-and-click genres, yet no one considers Escape from Monkey Island an RPG. Things can have a common origin and end up totally different.

Those non-combat PnP games basically don't sell, and are designed for the same reason that Disco Elysium was: bitter attempts by butthurt storyfags to do away with real gameplay in favor of pretending to be a gay vampire princess and feeling each other up while taking ecstasy.

 

[Skinwalker]

I have never played Disco Elysium, but I condemn it.

 

[Harthwain]

Loved this game but on a repeat playthrough the magic is kind of ruined when you realize how linear it actually is, the main story gives you the illusion of choice when in actuality it's very on rails and segments play out basically the same way

Yes, because it's a single route visual novel. You're there to be fed a story, and that's it - some fake "gameplay" it has, doesn't actually relate to the game in any way

The exact same argument can be used against quite of a few RPGs, including Planescape: Torment (the ultimate Codex's RPG). This is the result of having heavy narrative-driven games, instead of gameplay-driven ones. Even games like Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale are guilty of this.

No, but time will ultimately tell. The question is whether there's a surge of DE clones in development, and whether they get lumped into the RPG category on Steam or shoved over into Adventure or VN.

There are already a few games being developed that try to mimic Disco Elysium. Some are even promising (Esoteric Ebb).

 

[Lord_Potato]

No, but time will ultimately tell. The question is whether there's a surge of DE clones in development, and whether they get lumped into the RPG category on Steam or shoved over into Adventure or VN.

There are already a few games being developed that try to mimic Disco Elysium. Some are even promising (Esoteric Ebb).

Also, Pentiment (more of an adventure) and Citizen Sleeper.

In Bavarian Tale you can fight but it's very barebones and you don't need it to solve the main crime and most other sidequests.

 

[Morgoth]

It's too verbose and slow to pass as a Role-Playing (aka Life larping) game. But then again, I've yet to see a single CRPG that gets conversations right.

 

[Shaki]

The exact same argument can be used against quite of a few RPGs, including Planescape: Torment (the ultimate Codex's RPG). This is the result of having heavy narrative-driven games, instead of gameplay-driven ones. Even games like Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale are guilty of this.

PST has combat and dialogues are directly impacting the game and its outcomes, there is far more exploration, sidequests, equipment management, leveling and character building etc, and mechanics are closely related to the narrative and create a coherent whole.

Still, I did say in the past that I also consider PST closer to a visual novel than an RPG in a classic sense. It's obvious that at the core it's still a CYOA, and all the other layers were added on top of it as an afterthought. I just think they did enough work to fit their CYOA into an RPG genre, to make the line blurry enough that it's hard and pretty pointless to argue against it being an RPG. Disco meanwhile, isn't even approaching that line, it has absolutely nothing to do with RPGs other than basic aesthetics.

To use a metaphor, PST is a hypothetical future tranny who with the power of science, became physically and biologically indistinguishable from a woman, only differences are in his brain - there is obviously still space for discussion about what he is, but that discussion is mostly philosophical in nature at this point. DE meanwhile, is obviously a buff man in a skirt.

 

[gurugeorge]

No, but time will ultimately tell. The question is whether there's a surge of DE clones in development, and whether they get lumped into the RPG category on Steam or shoved over into Adventure or VN.

As for people talking about the lack of combat, there's plenty of TTRPGs that are basically devoid of combat so it's kind of a blockhead perspective.

Welcome to the forum, may your first post be a non-retarded one.

Oh. Too late.

For the record, PnP and cRPGs diverged over three decades ago, largely becoming their own thing. Consider that Zork was also an attempt to model D&D into videogame format, spinning off into the text-adventure and later point-and-click genres, yet no one considers Escape from Monkey Island an RPG. Things can have a common origin and end up totally different.

Those non-combat PnP games basically don't sell, and are designed for the same reason that Disco Elysium was: bitter attempts by butthurt storyfags to do away with real gameplay in favor of pretending to be a gay vampire princess and feeling each other up while taking ecstasy.

That's strangely ... specific

 

[Harthwain]

It's too verbose and slow to pass as a Role-Playing (aka Life larping) game. But then again, I've yet to see a single CRPG that gets conversations right.

I liked what Griftlands did when it came to conversations. As in: each argument is treated as a "fight". While I am not that keen on using the idea of combat (or cards), I do like that conversations are more than a line you pick (with an extra skill check to determine success/failure). Divinity: Original Sin had a cool concept where disagreements between the party members were resolved by best-of-three games of rock-paper-scissors. The main reason I liked it is because you could lose the argument and have to do something else.

PST has combat

I trust I don't need to explain why that statement is laughable?

and dialogues are directly impacting the game and its outcomes

There is really only one ending in Planescape: Torment. If you mean the "style" of the ending - Disco Elysium has that too (at least three, if I am not mistaken, although they don't have the same "feel" as Planescape: Torment's ones). In addition to that, both Disco Elysium and Planescape: Torment have various "game over" states.

It's obvious that at the core it's still a CYOA, and all the other layers were added on top of it as an afterthought.

Actually, there is an early mockup screenshot of Disco Elysium showing tactical combat in X-COM style (I can't link just the picture, so I am posting link to the whole topic):

https://www.reddit.com/r/DiscoElysium/comments/vys90c/the_original_pitch_document_for_the_game_that/

I think the reason they went with what we have in the game was mainly because they didn't have time and resources to add tactical layer and the content it would require on top of finishing the game (which they probably have to limit in scope, too). But that's just my opinion and nothing more.

I just think they did enough work to fit their CYOA into an RPG genre, to make the line blurry enough that it's hard and pretty pointless to argue against it being an RPG. Disco meanwhile, isn't even approaching that line, it has absolutely nothing to do with RPGs other than basic aesthetics.

It's disingenuous to say Disco Elysium "isn't even approaching that line" considering how close it is to Planescape: Torment (in pretty much everything) and how its design is built heavily around core tabletop RPG concepts (and not just "basic aesthetics").

It is even more funny when people effectively claim that simply adding some shitty combat would instantly elevate the game to RPG status.

 

[Zombra]

It is even more funny when people effectively claim that simply adding some shitty combat would instantly elevate the game to RPG status.

It really is the dumbest of all commonly cited requirements for What Is RPG.