Do you consider Disco Elysium an RPG?

[Zed Duke of Banville]

While it's admirable to exclude mechanics typical of a genre if you don't believe those mechanics would serve your game's premise (DE is an urban detective game, so there's not a lot of justification for RPG battles), and doing the opposite of that has led to a lot of stagnation in the genre (take JRPGs, which often include absurd amounts of battles even and especially when it doesn't fit the story), genres still have standards, and it's hard to see DE as belonging to the same genre as foundational CRPGs like Wizardry or Ultima. That being said, genres are mostly there for marketing purposes rather than factual categorization. If DE's devs had described it as an adventure game, while it would've been more accurate, the typical adventure game demographic is both not very large, and not very suited to games like DE; but there is a lot of crossover between fans of games like Fallout with DE (since, for most people, a lot of dialogue with character customization and skill checks are the defining aspects of RPGs). So Disco Elysium was correct to categorize itself as an RPG, not because it's accurate, but because it marketed the game more to its intended target demographic. For a lot of people who like Fallout, the combat is only an obstacle to what they actually came to the game for (dialogue and C&C), so to these kinds of people, DE removing combat is a complete improvement anyway. This kind of thing is why you get combatfags saying that storyfags are the harbingers of decline.

Fallout gave rise to the meme of "Choice and Consequences" in regard to the narrative of a game rather than to actual game mechanics. A certain portion of the fanbase, as you described, disdained Fallout's combat for being a distraction from dialogue options, and similarly would have preferred it to drop the limited exploration aspects it possessed. This would have left merely character customization/progression and equipment/inventory, and even for these character-related aspects the preference would have been for them not to affect any game mechanics but only the applicable choices available through dialogue boxes or the equivalent. Fundamentally, game mechanics would be eradicated in favor of scripting, with the only relation to the character aspects being a series of deterministic checks as to whether a character had a sufficiently-high number in an ability/skill or had in their possession a particular item. Following this route to its logical conclusion results in a CYOA that is at best a garden of forking paths providing narrative consequences to player's decisions. Though in reality, given the exponential increase in the number of forking paths caused by decision nodes, there is a necessity to trim them in various ways, by having certain paths converge with each other, or by dividing the gameworld into discrete hubs where the decisions made in one place do not affect other locations, or by imposing an overall structure on the game, as is the case with Disco Elysium's investigation inevitably being interrupted by the Tribunal, only following which does the ultimate destination become available.

Disco Elysium has neither combat nor exploration,

the only "exploration" consists of moving the player-character around a relatively small area.

Not defending the CYOA-ness of Disco, but how would you define exploration then?

Sure the game world is relatively small, but there is definitely feeling of exploration.
You navigate through the world, clear the fog of war, find new NPCs/items/quests/etc, can accidentally stumble upon hidden areas etc - how is this not exploration?

The gameworld in Disco Elysium is a small subdivision of a neighborhood, where it's easy to reach just about all content in four days of game time, prior to triggering the Tribunal. There are no dungeons, or puzzles, or combats, or logistical barriers to confront, so exploration exists only in the most trivial sense of moving the player-character across the screen; admittedly aside from the presence of a few skill-checks, that being the sole game mechanic. It's an exaggeration to claim that Disco Elysium has no exploration, but not much of one.

Does combat define the RPG genre though? To me combat isn't genre-defining as much as a necessary tool, existing alongside other necessary tools. Because you need combat to resolve conflicts. That's pretty much it. Using a dungeon crawler as an example of an RPG (which I think you're doing) is misleading, because a dungeon crawler is merely a type scenario in a role-playing game. This is like to say that Diablo is a true cRPG, when there are dozens of different takes on the genre.

Arguably there could be some other kind of conflict, with appropriate conflict-resolution mechanics, that substitutes for combat, but in practice conflict resolution means combat in nearly all RPGs. There are a number of major subgenres within the overarching CRPG genre; I've listed ten in my previous post, and those aren't exhaustive. All of these subgenres, however, share the same fundamental RPG concepts relating to the player-character(s), combat, and exploration, though they might focus on different elements, with greater strength in some at the expense of weakness in others. Dungeon Master-likes ("real-time blobbers"), for example, enhanced exploration by shifting from turn-based to real-time, allowing direct interaction in the dungeon with a multitude of objects and enemies, and increasing immersion, but at the expense of a simplified combat system.

It does borrow from RPGs character customization, in the form of attributes/skills that are utilized by the game, and character progression, in the form of experience that allows the player-character to gain levels and thereby increase said attributes/skills.

hear me out

adventure games are about mastery of the environment

rpg games are about mastery of character building. thats what rpg combat tests for the most part.

if you can have action-adventure (action game with exploration)

why not rpg-adventure (character building game of navigating an environment/story)

The term RPG-Adventure or Adventure-RPG or whatever would already have been seized by Quest for Glory, which was intentionally created as a hybrid of the two genres, as they had developed by the late-80s. Of course, this series still featured combat. Removing combat entirely would result in something fundamentally different from the RPG genre, just as removing exploration entirely from RPGs results in a tactics game (with the addition of character progression/customization). In a way, the text-adventure game genre was created by minimizing and then entirely removing combat from RPGs, although it also entirely removed character progression/customization, just leaving equipment/inventory and exploration of the environment, with a heavy emphasis on puzzle-solving that frequently involved inventory items.

 

[Mauman]

I consider it to be a visual novel with a few rpg elements.

So no, not really.

 

[NJClaw]

I think I finally got it.

Disco Elysium is an RPG, but it's not an RPG game.

 

[Vic]

It's already decided, Disco Elysium is not an RPG by the Codex' standards.

That's how we do it in the free world, democracy, the poles can go back to the gulag and play their Arrpeegees there.

 

[Lord_Potato]

I think I finally got it.

Disco Elysium is an RPG, but it's not an RPG game.

and it's certainly NOT a roleplaying RPG game.

 

[Incognito]

We've had interminable discussions about the definition of the RPG genre; the best definition is based on three essential sets of components: characters, combat, and exploration. More precisely, we could define the crucial individual elements within those sets of components:
1. Character Progression (leveling up to become more powerful)
2. Character Customization (at least classes and attributes, though classes can be replaced by a skill-based system; party customization can substitute)
3. Equipment (weapon, armor, other things that give active or passive benefits; better equipment makes a character more powerful)
4. Inventory (items on hand that can be switched with equipment or consumed)
5. Character-Skill-Based (player chooses character’s action, but success of character’s actions depends on statistics and the game system, not the action of the player)
6. Deliberation (player has opportunity to consider character’s actions before choosing what to do; in real-time games at least a pause function)
7. Randomness (dice-rolls or something else to remove determinism)
8. Statistics (game system is coherent and transparent enough that player can weigh the numbers to gauge the chance of success in an action)
9. Exploration (Player has control over character’s movement through the gamespace and can make meaningful exploration decisions rather than follow linear path)
10. Dungeons (a mythic underworld to explore; many RPGs have only a dungeon without an overworld, but it is more difficult to be an RPG with an overworld but no dungeons)
11. Openness (players have control over their characters’ movements and objectives in the world rather than being forced into particular quests; difficult in CRPGs and fairly rare)
12. Logistics (players must manage their characters’ resources, due to inventory limitations, encumbrance, stamina/fatigue, need for food, need for water, need for sleep, realistic lighting and a day/night cycle, Vancian magic memorization, weapon/armor deterioration and repair, etc.)


Just as RPGs can be categorized by major subgenres, we can also identify RPG-adjacent genres of games, which have similarity with RPGs but are clearly distinct.

Major RPG Subgenres:

1. Rogue-likes: Rogue (1980), Telengard (1982), Nethack (1987), Ancient Domains of Mystery (1994)
2. Turn-Based Blobbers: Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (1981), Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge (1990), Might & Magic: World of Xeen (1994), Grimoire: Winged Heralds of the Exemplar (2017)
3. Garriot-likes: Ultima III: Exodus (1983), Ultima IV: The Quest of the Avatar (1985), Ultima VII: The Black Gate (1992)
4. Real-Time Blobbers: Dungeon Master (1987) & Chaos Strikes Back (1989), Legend of Grimrock (2012) & Legend of Grimrock II (2014), Eye of the Beholder (1991), Black Crypt (1992)
5. Tactical RPG: Pool of Radiance (1988), Death Knights of Krynn (1991), and other Gold Box games, Wizard’s Crown (1986), Perihelion (1993)
6. Underworld-likes: Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992), UU II: The Labyrinth of Worlds (1993), The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall (1996), King’s Field IV: The Ancient City (2002)
7. JRPG: Final Fantasy VI (1994), Final Fantasy IV (1991), Final Fantasy IX (2000), Planescape: Torment (1999)
8. C&C: Fallout (1997), Fallout 2 (1998), Arcanum (2001), Age of Decadence (2015)
9. Open World RPGs: The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (2002), The Faery Tale Adventure (1986), Fallout: New Vegas (2010), Kingdom Come: Deliverance (2018)
10. Action RPG: Dragon’s Dogma: Dark Arisen (2012/2013), Demon’s Souls (2009), Dark Souls (2011), Salt & Sanctuary (2016)

RPG-Adjacent Genres:

1. Squad-based Tactics w/RPG elements: Jagged Alliance 2 (1999), X-Com (1994), Final Fantasy Tactics (1997), Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children (2020)
2. Strategy w/RPG elements: Heroes of Might & Magic II (1996) and other HoMM games, Sword of Aragon (1989)
3. Adventure w/RPG elements: Quest for Glory (1990) and sequels
4. Beat-‘em-ups w/RPG elements: Dragon’s Crown (2013), Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom (1994) / Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara (1996)
5. Action w/RPG elements: Deus Ex (2000), Blade of Darkness (2001), NieR: Automata (2017), Bloodstained (2019)
6. MMORPGs: Everquest (1997), Ultima Online (1998)
7. Person Simulator: Alter Ego (1986), Princess Maker (1991) series, Wonder Project J (1994)
8. Gamebooks: Warlock of Firetop Mountain (2016), Disco Elysium (2019)

Disco Elysium is yet another example of a CYOA with RPG elements, which is to say a gamebook.

This prestigious text should be displayed on its own tab at this website’s header.

 

[Incognito]

I once played this great RPG where you roleplayed as a plumber. You had stats in the form of items you could consume, such as mushrooms and flowers, that would alter the character’s abilities. And there was also a lot of progression variety as you could decide to go pacifist by not killing any NPCs and just finishing the main quest as fast as possible. I mean… you could kill them, if you wanted to, in the most gruesome manner by stomping on their heads. It had all the hallmarks of a great RPG: fun combat, choice and consequences and a nice story with a princess. A lot like Disco Faggysium.

 

[Harthwain]

Disco Elysium doesn't have combat in the true sense. It has scripted events and dice rolls that offer different varieties of fluff. It may even be very good fluff! But quality is not what makes a game an RPG, and it is more taxonomically correct to call Disco Elysium a visual novel than it is to call it an RPG.

Disco Elysium actually uses PnP/RPG-like mechanics. It is hard to be more of an RPG than that. If it suffers from anything it is more from being a narratively driven game, because that limits what you can do (as a player) to pre-conceived outcomes of the writters, but you could use the exactly same argument against Planescape: Torment, the Codex's Number One RPG of all times (or any other narratively driven RPG where there is only one Critical Path™). It's kind of funny to see how people are missing this, because they focus so much on Disco not having a combat layer.

Arguably there could be some other kind of conflict, with appropriate conflict-resolution mechanics, that substitutes for combat, but in practice conflict resolution means combat in nearly all RPGs.

I don't disagree. But I think people are missing the forest for the trees here. Combat should be part of an RPG, but it ought to be an option. The problem is, in majority of cRPGs combat is not an option - it's the main deal (tactical games are mostly to blame here). And it comes with the cost of the player's ability to interact with the world as it gets sidelined. So by focusing on combat too much, people are actually going away from what constitutes a true RPG, in my opinion. There are also other problems involved, but this is a part of it.

 

[Grunker]

who gives a fuck

 

[Bigg Boss]

rusty_shackleford

 

[Reinhardt]

it's walking simulator, like gone homo

 

[WhiteShark]

Disco Elysium actually uses PnP/RPG-like mechanics. It is hard to be more of an RPG than that.

This reductionist argument would force you to conclude that any game with outcomes decided by RNG or that uses hit points is an RPG, since those are PnP mechanics. The question isn't whether it uses any RPG mechanics, but the degree to which it resembles an RPG. For the record I also do not consider to be RPGs the bevy of modern tabletop games that, while using dice rolls and familiar jargon, make it their goal to produce dramatic outcomes rather than logical results.

If it suffers from anything it is more from being a narratively driven game, because that limits what you can do (as a player) to pre-conceived outcomes of the writters, but you could use the exactly same argument against Planescape: Torment, the Codex's Number One RPG of all times (or any other narratively driven RPG where there is only one Critical Path™). It's kind of funny to see how people are missing this, because they focus so much on Disco not having a combat layer.

Yes, it's true: by instituting a Critical Path, one already begins to depart from the essence of an RPG. To some degree this is necessary in a video game, but some obviously take it further than others. At the same time, PS:T is still closer to simulation than stagecraft. The presence of a combat system and the ability to wield it freely against NPCs is a part of that. Can you up and decide to kill some poor slob in DE and take his stuff just because you felt like it? I don't think so. You can act the psychopath, but only to the exact degree and in the exact ways that the writers envisioned. The 'freedom' afforded to you in DE is an illusion, a double illusion since it's a video game. It's stagecraft, and the player is mostly just along for the ride.

 

[Harthwain]

This reductionist argument would force you to conclude that any game with outcomes decided by RNG or that uses hit points is an RPG, since those are PnP mechanics. The question isn't whether it uses any RPG mechanics, but the degree to which it resembles an RPG.

It isn't reductionist as Disco Elysium isn't just a game where somebody put some RPG bits to masquerade it as an RPG. The game is set in the actual RPG setting homebrew by the developers and uses core RPG mechanics as pillars of its gameplay. While people may dislike Disco for lack of combat layer or for being narratively driven, none of this changes the core aspect of the game.

At the same time, PS:T is still closer to simulation than stagecraft. The presence of a combat system and the ability to wield it freely against NPCs is a part of that.

It's the first time for me to hear that Planescape: Torment is a simulation. The ability to kill any NPC only matters if killing an NPC matters. You can kill people in Baldur's Gate after you get caught stealing from the shop, but I doubt many people would carry on instead of reloading, because the fact of the matter is: you don't want to get caught as there is no interesting content related to that and you kill a bunch of important NPCs (shop owners, for example). In a true simulation being a thief ought to result in interesting content in its own right, but that requires either some hand-crafting (and would be obviously inherently limited) or proper systems in place to simulate that aspect. Maybe as an evil party you want to get your reputation down by killing some beggars, but that's less "the game is a simulation" and more players gaming the system.

You can act the psychopath, but only to the exact degree and in the exact ways that the writers envisioned. The 'freedom' afforded to you in DE is an illusion, a double illusion since it's a video game. It's stagecraft, and the player is mostly just along for the ride.

You can say literally the same about Planescape: Torment.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

We've had interminable discussions about the definition of the RPG genre; the best definition is based on three essential sets of components: characters, combat, and exploration. More precisely, we could define the crucial individual elements within those sets of components:
1. Character Progression (leveling up to become more powerful)
2. Character Customization (at least classes and attributes, though classes can be replaced by a skill-based system; party customization can substitute)
3. Equipment (weapon, armor, other things that give active or passive benefits; better equipment makes a character more powerful)
4. Inventory (items on hand that can be switched with equipment or consumed)
5. Character-Skill-Based (player chooses character’s action, but success of character’s actions depends on statistics and the game system, not the action of the player)
6. Deliberation (player has opportunity to consider character’s actions before choosing what to do; in real-time games at least a pause function)
7. Randomness (dice-rolls or something else to remove determinism)
8. Statistics (game system is coherent and transparent enough that player can weigh the numbers to gauge the chance of success in an action)
9. Exploration (Player has control over character’s movement through the gamespace and can make meaningful exploration decisions rather than follow linear path)
10. Dungeons (a mythic underworld to explore; many RPGs have only a dungeon without an overworld, but it is more difficult to be an RPG with an overworld but no dungeons)
11. Openness (players have control over their characters’ movements and objectives in the world rather than being forced into particular quests; difficult in CRPGs and fairly rare)
12. Logistics (players must manage their characters’ resources, due to inventory limitations, encumbrance, stamina/fatigue, need for food, need for water, need for sleep, realistic lighting and a day/night cycle, Vancian magic memorization, weapon/armor deterioration and repair, etc.)


Just as RPGs can be categorized by major subgenres, we can also identify RPG-adjacent genres of games, which have similarity with RPGs but are clearly distinct.

Major RPG Subgenres:

1. Rogue-likes: Rogue (1980), Telengard (1982), Nethack (1987), Ancient Domains of Mystery (1994)
2. Turn-Based Blobbers: Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (1981), Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge (1990), Might & Magic: World of Xeen (1994), Grimoire: Winged Heralds of the Exemplar (2017)
3. Garriot-likes: Ultima III: Exodus (1983), Ultima IV: The Quest of the Avatar (1985), Ultima VII: The Black Gate (1992)
4. Real-Time Blobbers: Dungeon Master (1987) & Chaos Strikes Back (1989), Legend of Grimrock (2012) & Legend of Grimrock II (2014), Eye of the Beholder (1991), Black Crypt (1992)
5. Tactical RPG: Pool of Radiance (1988), Death Knights of Krynn (1991), and other Gold Box games, Wizard’s Crown (1986), Perihelion (1993)
6. Underworld-likes: Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992), UU II: The Labyrinth of Worlds (1993), The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall (1996), King’s Field IV: The Ancient City (2002)
7. JRPG: Final Fantasy VI (1994), Final Fantasy IV (1991), Final Fantasy IX (2000), Planescape: Torment (1999)
8. C&C: Fallout (1997), Fallout 2 (1998), Arcanum (2001), Age of Decadence (2015)
9. Open World RPGs: The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (2002), The Faery Tale Adventure (1986), Fallout: New Vegas (2010), Kingdom Come: Deliverance (2018)
10. Action RPG: Dragon’s Dogma: Dark Arisen (2012/2013), Demon’s Souls (2009), Dark Souls (2011), Salt & Sanctuary (2016)

RPG-Adjacent Genres:

1. Squad-based Tactics w/RPG elements: Jagged Alliance 2 (1999), X-Com (1994), Final Fantasy Tactics (1997), Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children (2020)
2. Strategy w/RPG elements: Heroes of Might & Magic II (1996) and other HoMM games, Sword of Aragon (1989)
3. Adventure w/RPG elements: Quest for Glory (1990) and sequels
4. Beat-‘em-ups w/RPG elements: Dragon’s Crown (2013), Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom (1994) / Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara (1996)
5. Action w/RPG elements: Deus Ex (2000), Blade of Darkness (2001), NieR: Automata (2017), Bloodstained (2019)
6. MMORPGs: Everquest (1997), Ultima Online (1998)
7. Person Simulator: Alter Ego (1986), Princess Maker (1991) series, Wonder Project J (1994)
8. Gamebooks: Warlock of Firetop Mountain (2016), Disco Elysium (2019)

Disco Elysium is yet another example of a CYOA with RPG elements, which is to say a gamebook.

This is the best explanation/definition of RPGs I encountered so far.

yet still flawed

No amount of compromise can equate a cyoa to an rpg.

 

[Vic]

No amount of compromise can equate a cyoa to an rpg.

can you equate DE to PS:T?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

No amount of compromise can equate a cyoa to an rpg.

can you equate DE to PS:T?

I can fight stuff in PST

 

[jac8awol]

It's Broken Sword on steroids. That said, it's a great adventure game.

 

[luj1]

You can act the psychopath, but only to the exact degree and in the exact ways that the writers envisioned. The 'freedom' afforded to you in DE is an illusion, a double illusion since it's a video game. It's stagecraft, and the player is mostly just along for the ride.

You can say literally the same about Planescape: Torment.

No, that is fake news. PST has combat on every corner. It sounds like you never played it.

 

[Serus]

It's already decided, Disco Elysium is not an RPG by the Codex' standards.

That's how we do it in the free world, democracy, the poles can go back to the gulag and play their Arrpeegees there.

That's not how it works. Codex is not a modern nation-state. Or any state for that matter. Except state of mind.

Spoiler

"free world"?

 

[Faarbaute]

If you pour a bowl of soup shaped like a pizza, do you now have a pizza? What if there's sausage and bread in it? Tomatoes and cheese even?

Spoiler

no, it's still just soup

 

[luj1]

No amount of compromise can equate a cyoa to an rpg.

can you equate DE to PS:T?

I can fight stuff in PST

PST = trashmob at every corner

Guys, PST has a shit ton of combat. I have no idea how people can compare it to Disco Elysium.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

PST has actually a lot of mechanics besides combat. Like magic, stealing, and stealth. The kind of stuff that distinguishes cRPGs with a lot of text from menu games, ya know.

 

[Ryzer]

PST has actually a lot of mechanics besides combat. Like magic, stealing, and stealth.

Too bad the game never use them effectively, at all.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

I think I finally got it.

Disco Elysium is an RPG

You don't even get to roleplay in any fashion. You just get to choose dialogue options based on some perks. It's literally a CYOA visual novel where perks determine which page you turn to. It's not an rpg.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

If Deus Ex isn't an RPG, then Disco Elysium is definitely not an RPG.