Does CD Projekt underpay and abuse its developers?

[Delterius]

The Witcher Company pays in polish wages (how's that not exploitation)

"CD Projekt Red employees earn an average of $103 345, ranging from $86 587 at the 25th percentile to $117 266 at the 75th percentile, with top earners (the top 10%) earning more than $134 416. Compensation is derived from fewer than 20 profiles, including base salary, equity and bonus."
Typical polish wages

they've started paying more after suffering a brain drain.

Plus Poland has changed since the deluge of investment in the east.

 

[Readher]

The Witcher Company pays in polish wages (how's that not exploitation)

"CD Projekt Red employees earn an average of $103 345, ranging from $86 587 at the 25th percentile to $117 266 at the 75th percentile, with top earners (the top 10%) earning more than $134 416. Compensation is derived from fewer than 20 profiles, including base salary, equity and bonus."

Typical polish wages

Almost 30k PLN a month at the 25th percentile. Meanwhile, I get 2.6k PLN a month. Truly the highest level of exploitation happening there. :D

 

[Paul_cz]

This fairy tale that CDP "exploits its poor workers" never stops making me laugh. They exploit them so hard that they regularly relocate from US to Potatoland to be exploited.

 

[Delterius]

Seems that its just an outdated meme and the salaries* went from 30k a year to ~100k since 5 years ago. Koinkidentially, that's when W3 was released so it makes sense. You can't deliver that and not get a pay raise. Plus the Polish cost of living would be a major draw. But the crunch issue is still the same. Hundred hour weeks sound p hellish.

*averages only, no mention of median wages.

 

[Readher]

Seems that its just an outdated meme and the salaries* went from 30k a year to ~100k since 5 years ago. Koinkidentially, that's when W3 was released so it makes sense. You can't deliver that and not get a pay raise. Plus the Polish cost of living would be a major draw. But the crunch issue is still the same. Hundred hour weeks sound p hellish.

*averages only, no mention of median wages.

30k USD a year would still give you ~10k PLN a month, something vast majority of people here can only dream of earning.

 

[Delterius]

Seems that its just an outdated meme and the salaries* went from 30k a year to ~100k since 5 years ago. Koinkidentially, that's when W3 was released so it makes sense. You can't deliver that and not get a pay raise. Plus the Polish cost of living would be a major draw. But the crunch issue is still the same. Hundred hour weeks sound p hellish.

*averages only, no mention of median wages.

30k USD a year would still give you ~10k PLN a month, something vast majority of people here can only dream of earning.

RIP, although tbh those wage increases aren't meant to elevate poles but to attract outside talent from living in overpriced like San Francisco or whatever.

Still, I'm wary of the 'average' wage since the gaming industry in Quebec loved touting a huge 'average' wage but it turned out their programmers were paid below market rate and the board was super overpaid. Between one millionaire and a single homeless guy there's an average of 500k ya kno.

 

[Lambach]

"CD Projekt Red employees earn an average of $103 345, ranging from $86 587 at the 25th percentile to $117 266 at the 75th percentile, with top earners (the top 10%) earning more than $134 416.

Lacrymas was right, CDPR's devs must unite and rise up against this tide of capitalist oppression for being asked to work some overtime while making 10 times the national average!

 

[Danikas]

Lacrymas was right, CDPR's devs must unite and rise up against this tide of capitalist oppression for being asked to work some overtime while making 10 times the national average!

Man I wish to be exploited like this.

 

[Harthwain]

I wouldn't trust the statistics for "the average pay". It doesn't really show who is earning what.

You can easily get high "average salary" on paper by mixing a lot of people who earn lower-ish amount of money with a bunch of people who earn a ridiculously high amount of money. The second group is going to inflate "the average pay" stat for the first group. The ugly reality is that you're likely to be in either group (well, the first group, really), than to earn the mystical "average salary". Also, the higher pay can correlate with higher cost of living (you'll pay more for rent in the capital, where you earn more money than elsewhere, but elsewhere you'll pay less for rent, for example).

 

[Lacrymas]

The terrible working conditions under crunches is well known, some of you people speculating about this is trivial and irrelevant. CD Projekt having outstandingly awful crunches was also a big thing at one point. No matter how much you earn, having exploitative working conditions is bad and illegal. Nobody is being a whiny baby, you are being unreasonable.

 

[Danikas]

working conditions is bad and illegal.

Where are the lawsuits then ?

 

[Lambach]

I wouldn't trust the statistics for "the average pay". It doesn't really show who is earning what.

It's a pretty accurate metric if you have either a very large or a decently representative sample, though I'll grant that we don't know if the sample Danikas posted is such.

Regardless, even if you assume that they regularly work 100-hour work weeks which are 2.5 times longer than regular work weeks (40 hours), you can bet your sweet ass that CDPR devs make significantly more than 2.5 times the Polish national average. If you don't like that deal, well, fucking quit and find something more your speed. "Worked as a software dev at CDPR" looks fucking killer on a resume, I bet.

 

[Lambach]

No matter how much you earn, having exploitative working conditions is bad

Clearly not bad enough to cause a mass exodus from CDPR. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[Lacrymas]

We've been over this, emotional extortion exists. And they have lost workers, those ex-employees who were whistleblowers about this for example.

Where are the lawsuits then ?

They are going to win against a multi-million (if not billion) dollar company? They know they won't, that's why there are no mass lawsuits against the biggest game developer companies. We might be "equal" under the law, but those with the money are a bit more equal. The same laws don't affect different people the same way.

 

[Harthwain]

It's a pretty accurate metric if you have either a very large or a decently representative sample, though I'll grant that we don't know if the sample Danikas posted is such.

Well, let's talk about the average income before tax in Poland then. You gave the number 4900 (bt)/ 3530 (at) for year 2018. The mode (read: the most commonly paid salary) was 2379 (bt)/ 1765 (at) for year 2018. This shows one thing: this kind of metric is not accurate at all. You're right that we do not know what metric was used in case of CDPR, but the mere fact that they used "an average" alone is enough to safely assume it's more or less in the realm of statistical bullshit.

Regardless, even if you assume that they regularly work 100-hour work weeks which are 2.5 times longer than regular work weeks (40 hours), you can bet your sweet ass that CDPR devs make significantly more than 2.5 times the Polish national average. If you don't like that deal, well, fucking quit and find something more your speed. "Worked as a software dev at CDPR" looks fucking killer on a resume, I bet.

I am not going argue with that. I merely wanted to point out the whole "average pay" deal. I am going to suspect that video game developers are earning a bit more than the lowest possible wage and technically they can earn more with paid overtime and bonuses (if they are given any).

By the way, I am not so sure they are getting paid for excessive overtime. Maybe they are, maybe they are not. I wouldn't be surprised if working very long hours of overtime past the legal limit (which they did admit to in one of the interviews, I think?) is part of the "CDPR culture" package, where you "show your dedication" that way. Without the extra pay. It's not like they are going to book their illegal overtime and supposed pay somewhere, right?

 

[Readher]

The terrible working conditions under crunches is well known, some of you people speculating about this is trivial and irrelevant. CD Projekt having outstandingly awful crunches was also a big thing at one point. No matter how much you earn, having exploitative working conditions is bad and illegal. Nobody is being a whiny baby, you are being unreasonable.

Look, I don't know how working there actually looks like and I'm sincerely sorry for everyone who works under bad conditions. There is no doubt though that however bad the conditions there are, the pay is guaranteed to be at least several times higher than whatever your average Pole earns, and your average Pole is very likely to work in similarly bad conditions. The point I'm trying to make is I don't understand why dev working conditions are brought up so often and treated in a special way when there are millions of people who work other jobs and are subject to treatment just as bad, if not worse, while being paid fraction of what devs earn at the same time.

 

[Lambach]

And they have lost workers

OK, so system working as intended? If you can't handle a 100-hour work week, you leave the company expecting a 100-hour work week from you (or alternatively, you never join it in the first place). I really don't get what the big deal is. You'd have a point if you were talking about low-skill wagecucks with few options, but a decent software dev has plenty.

 

[moon knight]

CDPR needs some communism

 

[Lacrymas]

OK, so system working as intended? If you can't handle a 100-hour work week, you leave the company expecting a 100-hour work week from you (or alternatively, you never join it in the first place). I really don't get what the big deal is. You'd have a point if you were talking about low-skill wagecucks with few options, but a decent software dev has plenty.

Quite the contrary, specialized workers have a much better case to make. Minimum wage slaves are interchangeable and minimum wage jobs are a revolving door. Losing educated people is a problem, perhaps that's why they started paying them more to appease them. Money is not the only driving force behind a person's career choice. Willingly enslaving yourself is not a good thing.

The point I'm trying to make is I don't understand why dev working conditions are brought up so often and treated in a special way

Firstly because this is a gaming forum quoting gaming related news and drama. Second, it's not the only thing, contemporary youth are increasingly dissatisfied with the capitalist lizards and have been campaigning against the bad working conditions everywhere, this is not a localized movement. It's only not a problem if either you are the lizard or you've managed to find a good enough job that doesn't exploit you and pays you well (or you are a freelancer/youtube-like personality). Other people still profit more from your labor, but that's not the point.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Maybe we should start with not being exploited no matter what you want to work?

"maybe criminals should just stop committing crime"
genius, why didn't anyone think of this before

 

[Quillon]

I have no sympathy for game devs who are in "creative" roles who are supposed to be the passionate ones dictating their will to the rest of the team. More hours to do that should be fucking great for them. If such people are complaining they should be fired cos it means they've lost their passion/ambition. For the "non-creative" ones, the career options for them are virtually limitless so fuck them too.

 

[Lambach]

Quite the contrary, specialized workers have a much better case to make. Minimum wage slaves are interchangeable and minimum wage jobs are a revolving door. Losing educated people is a problem, perhaps that's why they started paying them more to appease them.

Lmao, so you're arguing from the position of the "capitalist lizards" and not from the position of the "exploited workers". What a spectacularly stupid argument that completely blew up everything you've said so far.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Quite the contrary, specialized workers have a much better case to make. Minimum wage slaves are interchangeable and minimum wage jobs are a revolving door. Losing educated people is a problem, perhaps that's why they started paying them more to appease them.

Lmao, so you're arguing from the position of the "capitalist lizards" and not from the position of the "exploited workers". What a spectacularly stupid argument that completely blew up everything you've said so far.

It has always been about "stop having a nicer house than me"

 

[Lacrymas]

What?

 

[Delterius]

"capitalist lizards"

Gotta believe.