Doing a Legion run in FO:NV

[The Jester]

Caesar states that engulfing the NCR will transform the Legion. The Legion under Caesar after taking NCR will be an entirely different entity if he is to be believed. Anyways, this thread is making me want to play another round of New Vegas. I think my final play was a pacifist ending, so I ended up siding with that robot in Benny's suite (I just forgot his name). Mr. House adamantly sends you to destroy the BoS, and I don't think there is a way out of killing them. Maybe I didn't have the proper stats if there is, though.

You can get out of killing the BoS with NCR, but I'm pretty sure it's mandatory with House. That's what turned my first House run into my first independent run, because Veronica was my BFF that run.

You can massacre BoS and keep her as a companion.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Some good points are raised here, sure, but I can't help but point out one little problem. Legion with its relentless conquest and promises of harsh, but fair frontier justice; Mr. House with his little city with robots; all of this looks plausible and possible in a post-apocalyptic environment, but the story of New Vegas takes place two fucking hundred years after the war, 204 to be exact! In our world, 204 years ago Napoleon was still alive and infantry still used muzzle-loading flintlocks.

For comparison, Fallout 1 takes place eighty or something years after the war: all big cities lay in ruins, strange beasts ravage the wasteland, no means of production - and thus people are trying to survive and recreate civilization with what they have. Fallout 2 already shows us some progress: San Fran shows very little signs of past war, NCR is clean and prosperous, and some small cities emerged quite successfully, like Vault City or Redding.

40 years forward, and the situation is even worse than in Fallout 1: people still live in ruins, rubble and wreckage is everywhere, and progress is really nowhere to be seen. Yeah, I know that Shittesda is the one to blame for this bullshit, but New Vegas suffers from this as well, inheriting this misunderstanding like AIDS from its parent.

What I'm trying to say is that Legion would have looked perfectly viable in the immediate years after the war, not two centuries past. A theoretical setting sixty years after the war, where some confederation of small settlements is confronted by Legion and each side has its points; Mr.House little paradise not touched by the war, but with obvious implication that it won't last long in the current environment... Moving series so far in the future was a mistake, but alas, I guess again that it was one of Shittesda requests, to sandwich New Vegas between Fagout 3 and Shittesda next game.

Just compare this

to this

Both in the pretty same time period.

 

[Trashos]

I have heard this complaint before, and personally I do not see it. Yes, the speed we are progressing now is furious, but it was not always so. Who is to say that it is going to be furious after the nukes? Or that all regions are going to be progressing at a similar pace? Especially the disputed regions like the Mojave. There are warzones in the Middle East that are backwards, while there are also more peaceful and very well developed regions in the Middle East.

There are also tribes at various places in the world that do not have electricity.

 

[Mexi]

I mean imagine having progress while people are living right next to fucking deathclaws, roving bands of raiders, deadly cazadores, and very little resources in the way of waters, etc. The Nile was one integral part of civilization. Imagine having none of that shit. Here, I think society is on training wheels compared to the shit the Fallout universe has to deal with. I think a slow progression here is very likely considering all these outside variables and pressures. On top of that, NCR is not a unified nation. As Caesar says, it's very much just a band of barons arguing and bickering. That hinders a lot of progress as mankind is still very much divided.

 

[Ol' Willy]

I have heard this complaint before, and personally I do not see it. Yes, the speed we are progressing now is furious, but it was not always so. Who is to say that it is going to be furious after the nukes? Or that all regions are going to be progressing at a similar pace? Especially the disputed regions like the Mojave. There are warzones in the Middle East that are backwards, while there are also more peaceful and very well developed regions in the Middle East.

The difference is that we progress blindly - discovering new things, while in post-apo setting these things are already known and should be rediscovered, and it's significantly easier than going into unknown waters. We not talking some kebab shithole - we are talking California, USA, and indeed, player can explore various factories and facilities everywhere. None of those are repaired and put back in action - although opposite examples are present, like Poseidon Power Station in Fallout 2 or Garage City factory in Sonora. In New Vegas people don't even build new houses, preferring two centuries old buildings that survived the war. Remind me, what was that first settlement you found in Fallout 1, and what buildings did it have? Not to say that Fallout universe has GECK thingy existing, which should make life much easier.

But we have what we have, and Legion with its slave-based economy is taken as a legit alternative.

 

[vota DC]

Some good points are raised here, sure, but I can't help but point out one little problem. Legion with its relentless conquest and promises of harsh, but fair frontier justice; Mr. House with his little city with robots; all of this looks plausible and possible in a post-apocalyptic environment, but the story of New Vegas takes place two fucking hundred years after the war, 204 to be exact! In our world, 204 years ago Napoleon was still alive and infantry still used muzzle-loading flintlocks.

For comparison, Fallout 1 takes place eighty or something years after the war: all big cities lay in ruins, strange beasts ravage the wasteland, no means of production - and thus people are trying to survive and recreate civilization with what they have. Fallout 2 already shows us some progress: San Fran shows very little signs of past war, NCR is clean and prosperous, and some small cities emerged quite successfully, like Vault City or Redding.

40 years forward, and the situation is even worse than in Fallout 1: people still live in ruins, rubble and wreckage is everywhere, and progress is really nowhere to be seen. Yeah, I know that Shittesda is the one to blame for this bullshit, but New Vegas suffers from this as well, inheriting this misunderstanding like AIDS from its parent.

What I'm trying to say is that Legion would have looked perfectly viable in the immediate years after the war, not two centuries past. A theoretical setting sixty years after the war, where some confederation of small settlements is confronted by Legion and each side has its points; Mr.House little paradise not touched by the war, but with obvious implication that it won't last long in the current environment... Moving series so far in the future was a mistake, but alas, I guess again that it was one of Shittesda requests, to sandwich New Vegas between Fagout 3 and Shittesda next game.
Both in the pretty same time period.

Unlike Hokuto No Ken there aren't savages that pop up from nowhere after the nuclear war. The first people that go out in wasteland are more evolved: Khans were former Vault dweller that become savage. Also even the hero of Fallout 1 just managed to found a village of tribals in Fallout 2. What we lack is some attempt to reconquer the wasteland......they just occupy ancient building or place some tent, they don't even try to build new houses or something like an aqueduct. They didn't even finished to scavenge the building of their own city, for example Goodspring school.

In New Vegas people don't even build new houses, preferring two centuries old buildings that survived the war. Remind me, what was that first settlement you found in Fallout 1, and what buildings did it have? Not to say that Fallout universe has GECK thingy existing, which should make life much easier.

The strange thing is that they even keep half bombed houses rather than build new ones, it would be ok to keep 200 years old houses in perfect conditions.

 

[DraQ]

Unfortunately, Mr House is not Ancap. His regulations are strict (not ethically, ethics is not what he cares about) and his taxes are heavy. The merchant outside Ultraluxe will tell you so. She is not allowed to sell alcohol, that's only for the casinos. She also mentions that 50% of her earnings go to House iirc. House has a mind for business, but he is still a strict regulator.

The places with the lowest taxes in the Mojave are the independent ones. Eg, if you keep Primm independent by placing Meyers as a sheriff, Nash's prices go down. On the other hand, factions that offer major protection services demand heavy taxes.

Sounds like ancap alright.

Once you have climbed to the top who's to tell you not to kick anyone trying to follow in the face?

What I'm trying to say is that Legion would have looked perfectly viable in the immediate years after the war, not two centuries past. A theoretical setting sixty years after the war, where some confederation of small settlements is confronted by Legion and each side has its points; Mr.House little paradise not touched by the war, but with obvious implication that it won't last long in the current environment...

This.

I mean imagine having progress while people are living right next to fucking deathclaws, roving bands of raiders, deadly cazadores, and very little resources in the way of waters, etc. The Nile was one integral part of civilization. Imagine having none of that shit. Here, I think society is on training wheels compared to the shit the Fallout universe has to deal with. I think a slow progression here is very likely considering all these outside variables and pressures. On top of that, NCR is not a unified nation. As Caesar says, it's very much just a band of barons arguing and bickering. That hinders a lot of progress as mankind is still very much divided.

That still hinders it a lot less than progressing in the wrong fucking direction.

 

[DalekFlay]

You can massacre BoS and keep her as a companion.

Sure, but why would you do it if you're her bestest bud? Makes no sense. Call me immershunfag I guess.

 

[Comrade Goby]

Legion run was always best run with killing Caeser and you taking his place (at least thats how it should be)

 

[Funposter]

Yeah, I know that Shittesda is the one to blame for this bullshit, but New Vegas suffers from this as well, inheriting this misunderstanding like AIDS from its parent.

well that's the root of the problem, isn't it? it had to be congruent with bethesda's version of the setting established in fallout 3. you may as well complain about the sky being blue.

 

[supervoid]

In New Vegas people don't even build new houses, preferring two centuries old buildings that survived the war.

I think NV offers relativelly good explanation. Vegas area had one normal Vault that got slaughtered by fiends, and handfull of weird experiment vaults, which resulted in death or craziness- people from Vegas vault addicted to gambling, election sim vault got slaughtered by design, weapon culture vault are Boomers, psyops vault died out. Region is not particulary habitable, so people from other regions won't arrive just to settle in the middle of nowhere.
And even in real life entire communities of people live in comparable conditions since WWII- gypsy, multi-generational alkoholics, weirdos in forest. They have no direction in life and no will to build houses or change anything.

I never had any issue with OTT Legion or general state of human settlements in game, IMO it fits overarching narrative which is more important for me than an attempt at simulating how it could play out irl.

 

[Luckmann]

In New Vegas people don't even build new houses, preferring two centuries old buildings that survived the war.

I think NV offers relativelly good explanation. Vegas area had one normal Vault that got slaughtered by fiends, and handfull of weird experiment vaults, which resulted in death or craziness- people from Vegas vault addicted to gambling, election sim vault got slaughtered by design, weapon culture vault are Boomers, psyops vault died out. Region is not particulary habitable, so people from other regions won't arrive just to settle in the middle of nowhere.
And even in real life entire communities of people live in comparable conditions since WWII- gypsy, multi-generational alkoholics, weirdos in forest. They have no direction in life and no will to build houses or change anything.

I never had any issue with OTT Legion or general state of human settlements in game, IMO it fits overarching narrative which is more important for me than an attempt at simulating how it could play out irl.

The explanation is far simpler than that:

In FONV, there are no major sources of lumber, no bricks, and they can't make concrete or other modern materials. Ergo, you need to re-use existing resources and try to fix what you have.

In FO3, the game is simply garbage and nothing makes sense because the people that made the game are also garbage.

 

[Luckmann]

Legion run was always best run with killing Caeser and you taking his place (at least thats how it should be)

No, the best Legion run is where you stay true to Caesar and his vision, conquer the NCR alongside him, serve him as proconsul until he passes away silently in his sleep after many years, after which you are affirmed and hailed as the Lord-Regent and President of the Legionary Republic.

 

[vota DC]

In New Vegas people don't even build new houses, preferring two centuries old buildings that survived the war.

I think NV offers relativelly good explanation. Vegas area had one normal Vault that got slaughtered by fiends, and handfull of weird experiment vaults, which resulted in death or craziness- people from Vegas vault addicted to gambling, election sim vault got slaughtered by design, weapon culture vault are Boomers, psyops vault died out. Region is not particulary habitable, so people from other regions won't arrive just to settle in the middle of nowhere.
And even in real life entire communities of people live in comparable conditions since WWII- gypsy, multi-generational alkoholics, weirdos in forest. They have no direction in life and no will to build houses or change anything.

I never had any issue with OTT Legion or general state of human settlements in game, IMO it fits overarching narrative which is more important for me than an attempt at simulating how it could play out irl.

The explanation is far simpler than that:

In FONV, there are no major sources of lumber, no bricks, and they can't make concrete or other modern materials. Ergo, you need to re-use existing resources and try to fix what you have.

In FO3, the game is simply garbage and nothing makes sense because the people that made the game are also garbage.

There shouldn't be that many woods there, but there aren't even near lake Vegas or the river. Still they could import that....lot of people from California come and lose the caps, they need resources and not just bottlecaps. Legion lands are in the same situation except Colorado?

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

I’ve never been to Vegas (seems like hell on Earth), but there’s definitely plenty of lumber sources in Arizona/New Mexico/parts of Nevada.

 

[DalekFlay]

You cannot possibly try to put real logic onto a game that has people still living with rubble all over their living rooms 200+ years after the bombs fell.

 

[Ol' Willy]

There shouldn't be that many woods there, but there aren't even near lake Vegas or the river. Still they could import that....lot of people from California come and lose the caps, they need resources and not just bottlecaps. Legion lands are in the same situation except Colorado?

One can always use adobe bricks for the buildings. Climate in Nevada is good for that material.

 

[Luckmann]

There shouldn't be that many woods there, but there aren't even near lake Vegas or the river. Still they could import that....lot of people from California come and lose the caps, they need resources and not just bottlecaps. Legion lands are in the same situation except Colorado?

IIRC, the Mojave is at the frontier of the NCR, and essentially "contacted" fairly recently, so any such imports would be a very new development. Further, one of the key points of the game is that the Mojave has no central authority or common economy. "They" (insofar there even *is* a "they") have little to nothing to trade, no common relevant currency, nor do they have the NCR currency and economical system to back them up and enforce a common currency.

And the Legion lands do not seem to operate under such principles at all. They're likely effectively a feudal society ruled by a centralized war economy. They'd haul shit from Colorado to the Dam simply on Caesar's say-so. Or start building infrastructure or get shot, The Pitt-style. I expect communal living arrangements, centralized camps, and public buildings to be common in the Legion lands, but everything outside of that is likely not much better off than the Mojave. That is pure speculation, however, we know extremely little about the Legion lands aside from it being ordered and peaceful, for better or worse.

 

[DalekFlay]

Something I didn't remember and was somewhat surprised by in this replay was that House only restored and opened the strip 7 years before the game starts, as a response to NCR encroachment. Not pointing this out as a direct reply to the above, but for me at least it flavors a lot of these discussions because the setup you see in the game is still relatively new. House had a long and boring 200 years in his tank I guess.

 

[DraQ]

You cannot possibly try to put real logic onto a game that has people still living with rubble all over their living rooms 200+ years after the bombs fell.

Reported for victim blaming.

 

[Endemic]

You cannot possibly try to put real logic onto a game that has people still living with rubble all over their living rooms 200+ years after the bombs fell.

I could be wrong, but a lot of the ruined buildings were likely recycled from FO3 assets due to the relatively short timetable the game was made in (yes I know, Sawyer should have planned better, etc etc).

Given all the attention to detail with logistics, the massive amount of continuity nods (particularly to Fallout 2) and questlines involving groups from the original games (Crimson Caravan for example), Beyond the Beef having an absurd amount of branching... I doubt it was intentional to leave some of the locations looking as messy as they were. Obsidian had a lot of trouble getting NV to work reliably on consoles as well, to the point where they had to resort to sectioning off the strip into pieces and deleting some NPCs to fit the DLCs into memory.

Had it been a PC-only game, their focus could have been on refining the sections of NV that needed more work (Legion) and a lot less time figuring out how to make their content function with only 512MB RAM available.

 

[vota DC]

I’ve never been to Vegas (seems like hell on Earth), but there’s definitely plenty of lumber sources in Arizona/New Mexico/parts of Nevada.

So both Legion and NCR can trade lumber. I was swayed because Arizona name origin Is literally arid zone.
Also Legion should do lots of wooden bridges since Roman soldiers loved to build them.

 

[Luckmann]

Also Legion should do lots of wooden bridges since Roman soldiers loved to build them.

Trade lumber with whom and for what?

 

[DalekFlay]

I could be wrong, but a lot of the ruined buildings were likely recycled from FO3 assets due to the relatively short timetable the game was made in (yes I know, Sawyer should have planned better, etc etc).

I'm sure, but like I say in a lot of these conversations at some point you have to shrug and write things off with "it's a videogame." That's kinda my point, if you're gonna get into nitpicks about population this and should there be woods that then you're kinda already looking for more realism than the videogame format allows.

 

[Mastermind]

Caesar's Legion is weird because it is huge army and no one questions crucifixtions, slavery, women objectification inside.

Public executions and slavery have been fairly universal staple institutions for the bulk of human history. Nobody outside of extremely rich and decadent modern societies considers silly bullshit like "women ojectification" a serious discussion topic.