DOOM Eternal - the sequel to the 2016 reboot - now with The Ancient Gods DLC

[Jezal_k23]

I do think Eternal is a good FPS. I never even disputed that. I just don't like the level design. How is it not a downgrade from 2016?

It's just arena -> platforming -> arena -> platforming repeated forever, with barely any exploration other than the mostly pathetic secrets.

Doom 2016 at least had better secrets and a couple of more open ended levels.

 

[sullynathan]

What's wrong with arenas?

 

[Lyric Suite]

What's wrong with arenas?

Nothing, but one after the other for 20 hours it's a bit much.

 

[OctavianRomulus]

DLC is real good. This is pretty fucking hard even on Ultra Violence. For reference, I didn't have too much trouble beating the base game on nightmare, though it was a good challenge. I can imagine Ancient Gods being above the majority of people's skill level, on anything beyond normal at least. Good. Didn't expect such incline with Eternal, and the DLC continues that trend. Maybe there is hope for AAA games afterall.

Fuck 2016. It's merely good for what it is. Eternal is better in almost every way. An actual worthy modern FPS.

The Level Design is worse in Eternal but they really fucking nailed the combat. Best action game of the year bar none.

 

[Ash]

Consoles. Reloading is anathema for them, too much of an hassle to hit the back button and navigate to the menu.

People will never stop being dense on this topic.

You must not be familiar with the concept of consequences for failure, a.k.a game design 101. If you fail, you lose some health. If already low health or you fail too much, you die and then have to load and lose some progress back to the checkpoint, because you're shit and need to get good. The idea is you pass multiple challenges without micro-managing save/load, because that breaks a series of specifically-designed challenges (picture it like an obstacle course or an endurance test) down into one challenge at a time, which is lame. It's the same as combat: take a bit of damage, you're not supposed to insta-reload. Ideally it's a series of challenges.
While the base game didn't offer platforming that truly utilized this fundamental game design concept because it's not too testing (but not rediculously easy either), the DLC does (in level 1 at least). The damage you take from platforming falls also scales with difficulty in eternal, which is great design. It's good to see platforming's consequences for failure handled more reasonably akin to any other challenge, as opposed to instant death. Teleporting the player back has been done before but pretty rare, to the point where in a game where you can save and load, you'd be a fool not to save often around platforming challenges, because the consequences can be so high (insta-death), but then as mentioned, this breaks up a series of challenges into micro-challenges you can safely tackle one at a time and face next to no consequences.

Anyhow, for those like me that wanted more open-ended level design I have to be the bearer of bad news: the level design has gone nearly full arena now and is more linear than ever before. However, it's well-designed linear. The game is blatantly trying to keep an intense pace in a never-ending dance of death (the wolf in the blood swamp makes this most obvious). Linear can be good if still engaging by other means, most notably high intensity challenge. In fact, linear is precisely how you make highly refined yet balanced challenge. You have much more design control. I have no issue with their goal here, but variety is good and I hope part 2 goes the complete opposite and is 90% open-ended to 10% arena/linearity more akin to OG doom. That's wishful thinking though.

Everyone needs to play this DLC on no less than Ultra violence. It offers a real challenge. I want to see the butthurt.

 

[Durandal]

Also I still don't understand why failing a jumping puzzle chips away at your life, just reload the checkpoint or just respawn me at the beginning of it.

You can actually deploy the Chaingun Shield right before you fall into a bottomless pit so you take no damage at all.

 

[abija]

Everyone needs to play this DLC on no less than Ultra violence. It offers a real challenge. I want to see the butthurt.

Everyone needs to beat X at the same difficulty I did or they SUCK! Obvious logical folloup is that if the game is too easy/ too hard for me designers SUCK.

 

[Lyric Suite]

If they can't be manly enough to make you restart from a checkpoint they shouldn't bother with jumping puzzles. What's the fucking point if there's no penalty for failure? Easily among the most retarded aspects of the game.

 

[Ash]

If they can't be manly enough to make you restart from a checkpoint they shouldn't bother with jumping puzzles. What's the fucking point if there's no penalty for failure? Easily among the most retarded aspects of the game.

There is penalty for failure: loss of health that scales with difficulty, and potential loss of progress with too many fails. And given that you will fall a lot in DE (don't bother denying it. It's not hardcore but it is challenging at times), it'd be total horsheshit to frequently rob the player of progress without giving the player the opportunity to at least learn from their mistake and try again beforehand. This is pretty much optimal design as far as fair consequences for failure are concerned: it makes platforming equivalent to how any other attrition challenge plays out (combat, environmental hazards). You lose some health, as opposed to insta death. It's not realistic, but needless to say realism does not necessarily equate to good game design.

Everyone needs to beat X at the same difficulty I did or they suck!

I haven't beaten the DLC yet. And also may pussy out from doing it on nightmare. Maybe.

But sure, this is basically designed for vets and any that can't beat it on UV then yes, they suck. UV has always been the "vets standard" difficulty for doom.

I do think Eternal is a good FPS. I never even disputed that. I just don't like the level design. How is it not a downgrade from 2016?

It's better than 2016

Yes, 2016 was more open than Eternal in like two levels. And this was good. However it was otherwise pretty damn easy (eternal base game isn't massive incline by comparison but the level design demands slightly more skill, with frequent environmental hazards around, platforming more testing and involved than 2016, and more overall gameplay variety). 2016 was too afraid to challenge the player via its level design, and too afraid to be creative. Looking back on it there were some memorable moments and it's certainly not *bad*, but it's mostly all mishmashes into a blur of tech bases with the occasional outside area. Like Quake 2 I guess. also mishmashes into lots of basic and easier platforming. People seem to forget 2016 had a lot, it was OK, but DE does it better. 2016 levels were also pretty bland and repetitive visually. In Eternal each level is vastly different thematically. Doom Eternal also has more puzzle elements in its level design to keep things fresh, even if basic.
Throw in DE's various expansions to platforming mechanics (climbing, double dash, monkey bars) and they're just more engaging to navigate. Of course I wished both games would open up way more but there are benefits to linearity (tightly controlled design).
I'll give 2016 minor points for being slightly more open in very few instances, but everything else is better in Eternal. Bear in mind I rate D2016 level design 7/10 and eternal level design 8.25/10. I don't think it's massively better, though it comes close. Make it more open. Have even more testing level design, slightly less arenas and more letting the player tackle things on their own terms....

 

[Multidirectional]

I've had more accidental falls when dodging enemies in Eternal than during platforming bits. If they were all instant deaths it would pretty damn annoying.

 

[Ash]

Calling platforming "jumping puzzles" highlights exactly how this line of thinking is wrong. It's not supposed to be a puzzle you figure out, platforming is supposed to be a skill and endurance test (with some thinking involved, of course). It's way more engaging this way. In games like Half-life, they do play out like puzzles, with the player saving, standing there and studying the "puzzle", and then giving it a go and reloading if fail. In actual platformers they're more often handled on the fly with reflexive responses and precision more like how combat plays out: you deal with it at a fast pace and as it comes, at least first time around. And you deal with it like a series of challenges with lots of jumps with no opportunity to stop and save. If you die, then you may have to stop and give it more thought. Of course it gets even better when you throw combat in the mix so you're jumping and bashing/shooting enemies simultaneously, which DE does frequently.

I've had more accidental falls when dodging enemies in Eternal than during platforming bits.

Plenty arenas in DE have fire pits and such, and its great. But the arenas also feature platforming (jump over fire pits to escape demons, get some air time to get a good view of the arena and rain down hell on them etc). there is always "platforming bits", 90% of arenas are built around platforming, it never stops. It's part of what makes the game so engaging considering it's an arena shooter at its core (which are usually bland and repetitive as fuck).

 

[Lyric Suite]

I'm sorry, but i'm not fucking buying it.

Level design in both nuDoom games is fucking shit. End of story. Muh sophisticated puzzles lmao.

 

[Wunderbar]

A stand-alone expansion pack that adds zero new weapons? lame.

 

[Ash]

Muh sophisticated puzzles lmao.

This was never said. The puzzles are basic as hell, but they add variety. The rare puzzle elements in OG doom were the same - basic but still meaningful variety.

Level design in both nuDoom games is fucking shit

Fake news. You have to analyse it for what it is. It's an arena shooter, not an old school idtech/build engine masterclass of level design. In its respective style of design, it's top class. Many SP arena shooters don't have much of anything resembling level design at all. It's just a big circle filled with waves of enemies.
I wish it were like doom, quake and nukem 3D. OR even better, a 70/30 mix (70% classic FPS gold standard, 30% DE standard arena shooter). It's not, it's an arena shooter with minor exploration and platforming segments. Top of its class as an arena shooter though. If there's a better arena shooter I want to hear it.

 

[OctavianRomulus]

A stand-alone expansion pack that adds zero new weapons? lame.

Ever heard of Final Doom?

 

[Lyric Suite]

A stand-alone expansion pack that adds zero new weapons? lame.

Not really, not for a game like this, where every weapon has its own niche. Putting more weapons just increases the amount of redundancy.

 

[Wunderbar]

It's not like their "combat chess" has airtight rules, there's always a room for a new tool.

 

[OctavianRomulus]

A stand-alone expansion pack that adds zero new weapons? lame.

Not really, not for a game like this, where every weapon has its own niche. Putting more weapons just increases the amount of redundancy.

That is also why they took out the fully functional Pistol right before release, which you can still get through console commands. It was probably a hard decision too. making weapons is not cheap.

 

[Ash]

Replace the chaingun. Primary fire is no better nor different functionally than heavy assault gun. Rapid mod is good but the weapon looks, sounds and feels ugly. Barrier is good but it also slows you down. I never use it personally. The DLC has given me a new love for the heavy assault rifle and its precision shot.

Well, it doesn't need replacing. Just start over from scratch and make it an actually badass gun. Chaingun sucked in 2016 too. Even Doom 3 had a better chaingun. That screenshake and fire sound

 

[OctavianRomulus]

Replace the chaingun. Primary fire is no better than heavy assault gun. Rapid mod is good but the weapon looks, sounds and feels ugly. Barrier is good but it also slows you down. I never use it personally. The DLC has given me a new love for the heavy assault rifle and its precision shot.

My theory is the following. The Heavy Assault Rifle has and always will be the classic Doom incarnation of the Chaingun but since the Chaingun has always been more of an SMG from a gameplay POV, the looks of the gun didn't match its power. This isn't a problem in Classic because you only see part of the gun. You can't do that in a modern game because it would look weird.. However, taking the Chaingun out would make people sperg out of control.

 

[Caim]

Have the difference be that the HAR is best against precision elimination of individual targets, whether it's a burst of fire at short range, a precision bolt to deal damage at long range or a series of micromissiles stuck to a single target. The chaingun by comparison works by magdumping your way through a horde of trash you want to get rid of right this instance, or a bulky lad you want to stunlock to death but you run the risk of getting flanked by smaller enemies.

I mean, they're both intended to work like that, but in the DLC I only whipped out the Chaingun when I needed to take down a Baron of Hell or something like that. The rest of the time I used a mix of the HAR and the Super Shotgun.

 

[Ash]

A better chaingun functionally could easily make the HAR redundant though (aside from DLC - the only time the precision shot is strictly needed). why bother with fancy precision shots when you can absolutely shred with a beastly chaingun? It's rare to ever actually need true precision in this game (combat is constantly close to medium range). Maybe if they separated their ammo pools.

If they wanted to make this DLC REALLY hard, they'd slow the regen rate of the chainsaw by 30% or more. Then you'd have to use (and master) each of the ammo types evenly before a refill, ammo (and fuel) in the environment would be more relevant, and the ole flame belch + chainsaw panic button to refill health, ammo and armor in one go would be less spammable. That would fulfill DE's combat chess potential.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I've had more accidental falls when dodging enemies in Eternal than during platforming bits. If they were all instant deaths it would pretty damn annoying.

Never played Dark Souls then?

With that said, without meaningful level design (besides arena fights ye ye Ash calm yer shit) that stuff is just annoying, i can agree. The tension Dark Souls creates with ledges you can fall off from only works if you are immersed into the level, and you never are in nuDoom.

And for those who keep asking or expecting them to change any time soon, i think it's obvious that shit is intentional. They don't want exploration in their game (besides the bare minimum for secrets), they want you to feel like you are constantly moving and engaged in the mayhem. The idea of just stopping in your tracks to let the environment sink into your brain is something they are avoiding on purpose. In Doom 2016, where level design is closer to traditional shooters than Doom Eternal is, they managed to discourage level back tracking by locking you out after certain check points (annoying if you wanted to discover secrets in one go). They obviously don't want you to play the game like that. It's all by design.

 

[Multidirectional]

I've had more accidental falls when dodging enemies in Eternal than during platforming bits. If they were all instant deaths it would pretty damn annoying.

Never played Dark Souls then?

That was never a problem in Dark Souls. I think you should play Sekiro just so you would stop comparing Eternal to Dark Souls at this point, because it's really closer to Sekiro than DS. Hell, they even made falls non fatal in Sekiro, which I suspect might have been a influence on this decision in Eternal. That and bonus lives system.

 

[Ash]

Dark Souls has very few platforming challenges by comparison (unfortunately). Does have quite few places to fall, but Doom Eternal the potential to fall is near-constant.
They could make it like Dark Souls. But then it just makes it jumping "puzzles" again rather than about pace, precision on the fly and reflexes. If the consequences for death are so high, you're either going to play it safe or spam that save/load (if any given game allows it). I think they should stick with what they have and instead focus on making the platforming obstacles ithemselves tougher. (they do in the DLC, but it's kinda short-lived and soon goes back to base game level of intensity in that regard. There's also slightly less platforming overall. Quite the combat fest).