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Look for the 'Playersexual' thread. I may have some choice quotes tomorrow, but that's one big thread that you missed.
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Dragon Age: Inquisition Pre-Release Thread
- Thread starter Wirdschowerdn
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You'd have a point but I have yet to see a compelling or even mildly entertaining romance in game. Do you have any examples I've possibly missed that would live up to your Illiad/Odyssey name dropping?
I get that romance hounds exist, my grandmother was an avid devourer of romance novels... I just contend that gaming as a medium, thus far, is less about meaningful interactive romance and more about player centric instant gratification shit romance. As far as I'm concerned that shit should have it's own separate classification/genre so certain devs will stop masquerading as RPG developers and just start creating gay dating sims.
God help us that thread is 91 pages.
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Er, don't misread me. I'm romance neutral.
As far as your complaint goes, I don't know. Fiction is a curious magic that works its enchantment differently on different people. Evaluating the role of subjectivity while still preserving the idea of 'objectively' meritorious productions is difficult.
Another way of looking at it is that even in a romance heavy game like Mass Effect 2 where almost every NPC can hit on you, the average player experiences romance as less than a percent of content in a straight playthrough, compared to the amount of shooting or non-romance talking you do.
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Lhynn
Arcane
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are you a Christian Decado?
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The Bioware forums make believers of all of us
I'm an atheist. Though considering that thread I might start worshiping Satan.
Delterius
Arcane
When the dark from beyond the abyss presents itself, some might cling to God, others might question His existance. So... before or after seeing that thread?
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http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ru...s-40-endings-five-major-regions/1100-6418617/
40 ENDINGS GUYS! OMIGOSH, SO MANY ENDINGS.
... yeah. Considering Mass Effect 3 had 20-something endings, we'll see.
40 ENDINGS GUYS! OMIGOSH, SO MANY ENDINGS.
... yeah. Considering Mass Effect 3 had 20-something endings, we'll see.
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RPGMaster
Savant
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Nah. The dialogue (especially in DA2 and ME3) is much, much worse.
The "sex" scenes have some comedic value.
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FWIW, I was being a little facetious(only a little) with the portion of my first post you originally quoted. If you look at literature or film and compare them to gaming they are a strictly fixed narrative structure. Heck any comparisons between book and film is exceedingly difficult given their different narrative capabilities/qualities, but add an interactive medium to it and the difficulty becomes manifold. You can only draw comparisons in the most basic of aspects... So qualifying ME2 as a romance heavy game and quantifying it's romance content as a percentage will suffice to illustrate my point. If ME2 is let's say a 40 hour game and at most 1% of it's content revolves around "romance"(and clearly we have a difference of opinion on what constitutes romance) you're talking ~30min(rounding up) of romance interaction. How can it be described as anything but a tacked on gimmick?
-EDIT-
Just to add some more thoughts. If any game wishes to drop the monikor of gimmick/cheap romances, then characterization has to be taken into account. I don't think a player-sexual system can ever allow for the necessary breadth and depth of characterization born of an interactive medium.
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Okay, I like a challenge.
It forms a noticeable part of a contained aspect of the role-playing experience, namely inter-party relationships, and plays about as much importance in the world of Mass Effect as most real life romances do in our everyday activities.
Most marines don't wear their real life romances on their sleeve everywhere they go, so Shepard doesn't either.
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Xeon
Augur
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I kinda like flirting options, like in the airplane scene in Alpha Protocol with Scarlet. It was pretty funny how Thorton was trying to seduce her in a corny way, that was pretty fun to watch. NWN2: MotB was also really good with the lite romance and the twist later.
In ME1 I think was kinda good because it was easy and no hassle so I romanced both girls because why not before they started a drama and I think I was dumped by both and ended up romancing Jack in ME2 and didn't like it so stopped romancing after that. In DA:O I romanced Morigan and was kinda having fun because I thought she was a tsundere and might end up pretty funny later but they went serious. In DA2 none of them seemed like good options, there is only a slut and a kid.
I think I liked Grace from Torment but can't remember it. All romances in BG2 sucked because they kept interrupting me at inappropriate moments so didn't bother too much with it. NWN2:OC was also bad. FNV had Kass I think and was kinda fun.
In ME1 I think was kinda good because it was easy and no hassle so I romanced both girls because why not before they started a drama and I think I was dumped by both and ended up romancing Jack in ME2 and didn't like it so stopped romancing after that. In DA:O I romanced Morigan and was kinda having fun because I thought she was a tsundere and might end up pretty funny later but they went serious. In DA2 none of them seemed like good options, there is only a slut and a kid.
I think I liked Grace from Torment but can't remember it. All romances in BG2 sucked because they kept interrupting me at inappropriate moments so didn't bother too much with it. NWN2:OC was also bad. FNV had Kass I think and was kinda fun.
Delterius
Arcane
Whenever it isn't. Romance in MoTB and PTS are very well integrated into the plot; Even in DA2 is a part of companion dynamics which is a source of conflict of the plot - all love interests are part of the larger mages versus templars story.
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If any game wishes to drop the monikor of tacked on gimmick/cheap romances, then characterization has to be taken into account. I do not believe a player-sexual system can ever allow for the necessary breadth and depth of characterization born of an interactive medium. The truth is, if done right, a developer could make me a believer(IE that romances do not detract but can add to overall gaming experience). Though empirical evidence does not inspire much confidence.
Delterius said:
Of course, and that is part of my main point(MotB and PST? are exceptions to the rule). Though I can't really comment DA2... Do you believe a player-sexual character/companion can be well integrated into the plot?
Delterius
Arcane
For the love of the Nine Hells let us not incorporate terms from the BSN.
That said, I don't like the idea of making every potential love interest avaiable to the player regardless of the PC's sex. As a player it makes the world seem much more phony than it has to be. What's more is that the writer is essentially letting go of a character trait (that is, their sexuality) just so that all the waifus are avaiable to everyone. This is more dangerous for what it (may) imply about the writer's priorities than anything.
However, just because of that doesn't mean the character is necessarily just a ball in the park. DA2 doesn't implement this very well but if it wasn't for the Rivalry mechanic (which is another way to make sure the player never looses out on anything 'just' because he spit on a character's beliefs, that is, his choices), choosing a waifu could mean taking a specific stand in the overarching plot (the Mages versus Templars business).
First: you gotta crawl before you can walk. Mainstream RPGs with "romance" options are still finding their legs, so to speak. They're not going to get better if people stop making them.
Second: what's wrong with hybrid games? I understand if you don't like a romantic storyline getting in the way of you shooting skeletons with fireballs, but it's silly to say that games should stay in their boxes and never incorporate more than a single element.
Personally, whenever I play a dating or sex sim, I'm generally disappointed because they're too one-dimensional and unchallenging. More teeth to the gameplay generally makes them much better. What's more natural than incorporating challenge elements from other genres? Of course there are a lot of cheap hybrid sex games out there, but they suffer from your same complaint: they may do the sex well, but they're below average (to say the least) as RPGs or fight games or whatever else they're trying to be. In both cases, the right intention is there, but the execution fails. Nobody knows how to do it right yet. They're still learning.
I guess I'm saying that it makes sense to me for (some) RPGs to reach towards better sex (romance, whatever), and for sex games (dating sims, whatever) to reach towards better RPG elements and production values. It's also OK for other RPGs to stick to shooting fireballs at skeletons. It's not OK for the entire genre to say, "We got skeletons, we got fireballs; let's stop there forever so no one gets confused."
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It is a bit disengenous to reduce my position to "don't like a romantic storyline getting in the way of shooting skeletons with fireballs". If romance in game is reduced to mere fan service, it is meaningless. It has to somehow integrate into gameplay, and in particular, the plot. Do you enjoy biowarian romances? If so, what exactly do you feel they accomplish or add to the game?
As far as Hyrbid games go, if the hybridization comes at the expense of either genre's/category's core characteristics then there is a problem - outbreeding depression(vice what you seek heterosis)
Delterius, I'll try to avoid using BSN terms in the future.
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Xor
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I don't have a problem with romance in an RPG per se, but the way Bioware does it has devolved into self-parody at this point. I may not really like any of the romance options in BG2, but there was obvious effort put into making those romances. And then with each subsequent release, more and more of the party was open to sexings. You had Bastilla and Carth in KOTOR, childhood friend, princess bitch, and that one guy I never used in Jade Empire (this was also the first case of gay romance), three squad mates in ME, four party members in DA, something like 5 people in ME2, and by DA2 there are only three or so party members who aren't romanceable. I wouldn't be surprised if DA3 didn't include a single non-romanceable party member.
What's next? Will they start indulging other creepy fetishes with their romances? Why not include a furry character, or a hermaphrodite? There are plenty of pervert demographics out there for Bioware to tap into.
What's next? Will they start indulging other creepy fetishes with their romances? Why not include a furry character, or a hermaphrodite? There are plenty of pervert demographics out there for Bioware to tap into.
It wasn't my intention to belittle your position, but when you say that "that shit" needs to stay out of your RPGs and "those devs" need to just leave and go make "those games" instead, you do come across as somewhat, shall we say, overprotective?
I see where you're coming from, but disagree. Minigames can be fun. (They can also be terrible, but they can be fun.) If there can be a fun optional fishing minigame, why can't there be a fun optional sex and/or romance minigame?
Of course, if it does integrate well into the plot, so much the better.
Not really. I played ME, ME2, and DA:O, and romanced in all of them. DA:O came closest to making me care. I did think that the little Morrigan sex deal at the end was very well done, particularly because it did feel like an important part of the story. Overall, I don't think they do a great job, but I am glad they're trying.
Agreed. One solution is to give up on hybridization; the other is to try again and do better this time. Guess which option I think is better for the future of gaming
I like this one.Look for the 'Playersexual' thread. I may have some choice quotes tomorrow, but that's one big thread that you missed.BSN person said:Let's see what Robert Downey Jr has to say about the issue.
Thanks, Robert.
It'll be quicker to list who in ME you could not romance/fuck. Just the Squadmates over all three games:
- Wrex (1 out of 6 for ME1)
- Grunt
- Legion (though he has something of a crush on you)
- Mordin (though he says that if he were interested, he'd "try" you)
- Samara (they don't fuck, but they can share a kiss in Citadel)
- Zaeed (4 out of 13 for ME2)
- EDI (1 out of 8 for ME3)
That is 6 out of 27 people you cannot charge up their loading ramps. That is 22%.
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